Wishes

[Evermore]

this religious shit has gone way too far on all sides.

this is a rhetorical question but wtf cant people just celebrate what they believe with out trying to shove it down someone else's throat? Its bad enough that these holidays have been commercialzed to the point where they make you fucking sick.


Happy Festivous

[Narrock]

this religious shit has gone way too far on all sides.

this is a rhetorical question but wtf cant people just celebrate what they believe with out trying to shove it down someone else's throat? Its bad enough that these holidays have been commercialzed to the point where they make you fucking sick.


Happy Festivous

Public display of Christmas trees and nativity scenes is not going too far. Bitching about it and starting lawsuits over it is. I swear to God, I see a 2nd civil war coming, and it's going to be Christians and Messianic Jews v. everybody else.

Since atheists and many liberal secular "progressives" (lol) want to continue dividing the country, we might as well come together and go all the way and instill the "Jesusland" that Michael Moore talked about a couple years ago before the 2nd civil war comes. I'd be for that in a New York minute.

How nice it would be to not have to listen to any more whining, political correctness, and overall douchebaggery from the seculars anymore.

[Martrae]

"Anti-religious tirade" Excuse me? Show me where I say ONE WORD against people having and practicing whatever religion they so choose? I merely pointed out that for Christians to claim persecution and oppression in this society is laughable, which it is.

Not to mention, I am *SO* sorry that the founding fathers felt it necessary to encode protection against the Tyranny of the Majority into the Constitution. I am sure you'd feel SO much better if the rights of the individual were freely able to be trampled upon just because that person's beliefs weren't as popular as some other people's. Oh yes, that would be a GLORIOUS society, wouldn't it.

Furthermore, I think I am adamantly on record about the Government staying out of everyone's private lives. What you do in your home, as long as it's not harming anyone non-consenting, is your business and no one elses. What religion you practice, what sex acts you practice, indeed whatever consenting adults wish to engage themselves in with other consenting adults, by all means, feel free, and the government should stay the hell out of it.

However, on the PUBLIC front, the government should display no bias or preference for any one religion, no matter how popular, as that's what is called for in the Constitution. Private individuals want to have a 10 commandments shrine in their lawn, or have daily re-enactments of the nativity and the passion in their back yard? More power to them, feel free. Such displays have no place, however, on PUBLIC land.

-Arlos

Damn....I pushed Arlos' buttons good.

I will admit I misspoke...please substitute anti-Christianity for anti-religious.

As for your second sentence...you may wanna tell that to your Dem friends who seems hell bent on changing our government from a Constitutional Republic to a Democracy.

And Toss, I'm flying the BS flag on that one.

[Markarado]

Arlos, you're simply making an idiot of yourself. Christmas originated as a Christian holiday. It should be celebrated according to how Christians perceive it on public property. When there's a Jewish holiday decorate public areas how the Jews perceive it. When there's an Islamic holiday decorate public areas as Muslims perceive it.

You're arguments against celebrating it in a relgious way on public property is rediculous. It simply shows how anti-Christian you are. And yes, I will say you are anti-Christian. You'd die before you miss the chance to speak out against anything related to Christianity. You're not anti-Christian? B.S.

We celebrate Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist (sp?), Islamic, Christian, and many other various religious holidays in Malaysia. Every single holiday is (including Christian holidays) is celebrated as the people of that specific would like it to be. After all, it is originally their holiday (yes, they OWN it); and those are the people that matter most during each specific holiday. The rest happily go along with it without complaints. Everyone enjoys the holidays and has a great time.

I can't go anywhere without hearing both Christian and secular Christmas songs here. The non-Christian and Christian enjoy the holiday side by side. The non-Christians don't complain about the Christian orientated decorations around the city. Why should they? We don't complain about their decorations during their holidays.

You're going to come back and tell me that Christmas is just as much of a secular holiday as a Christian one. That's very true, but originally it is a CHRISTIAN religion. Make sure you respect that. Our religion, as well as others, should be honored with religious orientated decorations, music, etc.. as well as non-Christian decorations, music, etc...

Take a chill pill and calm down on your rantings about Christians being Christian during a Christian holiday.

[Tossica]

There are at least 4 "religious" holidays celebrated at this time of year in the US. There is NOTHING wrong with recognizing all of the holidays. That's the whole point you moron. Quit acting like Christians are somehow being persecuted. If you want to celebrate the night that the three wise elves followed Rudolphs nose in the sky and Santa left the little baby Jesus under the tree, that's cool. Noone is saying you can't but we don't need a Nativity scene in front of every court house in the country unless you are willing to put up with everyone elses fairy tales being put on public display as well.

[Markarado]

You calling them 'fairy tales' makes everything you said completely void as you've shown your anti-religions, leftwing, liberal side. If anyone has a problem respecting relgions it's definately people like you - not the 'fundamentalist Christians' as you'd like to claim.

I guess you completely missed a point I was trying to make. My apologies if it wasn't clear enough for your lack of intellect. YES!~ I am wiling to APPRECIATE and RESPECT other religion's public displays.

[Arlos]

Mindia, you know I'm not secular, btu I'm against public funding for religious-based displays, or using public land for them. Christmas trees, I couldn't care less about, that's about as non-denominational as you can get. Would I like if they incorporated some more traditions, sure, but a Christmas tree is pretty pissant to get upset about in a public area, especially given some long traditions this country has had.

Also, if you (or any other private citizen) wants to have a nativity scene (or any other religious iconography) on your private property, even if it's completely displayed to the world, I support that, period. (well, unless it glows so bright you can read by it 3 streets over, or is so loud the next county can hear it, heh.) That's private free speech, and regardless of the content, it's your right, and I'd support you to the hilt.

A nativity scene financed by the government though, I would have a problem with, as that's showing preference to Christianity, which is, of course, Unconstitutional. Note please that I would likewise object to a Jewish display, a Hindu display, and even a Pagan display, as I wouldn't find it any more constitutional just because it happened to be of my faith. The government should, and indeed MUST stay out of all aspects of things religious, as by the constitution, the government is not allowed to put any one religion, no matter how popular, ahead of any other.

Oh, and Martrae, if you go back and read everything I said, I never said one bad word about Christianity whatsoever. My sole bad words were for those flaming retards who proclaim persecution and victimhood, despite being members of the single most popular religion in the country, with full ability to worship freely as they see fit. Funny, that doesn't seem to fit the definition of "persecution" in any dictionary that *I* am aware of...

Of course, since you seem to believe, by your posts, that the majority should always prevail, no matter what rights they might be trampling on of a minority, I wouldn't expect you to understand that. I guess in MartraeLand, you'd best be part of the herd, or you have no rights at all.

-Arlos

[Tossica]

Mark,

Apparantly since you don't even LIVE IN THE FUCKING COUNTRY, you miss the point of this whole debate. It's the right wing Christian dipshits getting all bent out of shape because everyone else thinks their religious views are just as valid as the Christian views and traditions. Some dept store decides that only recognizing the Christian holiday is alienating many of their customers and the Christian right throws a fucking fit. Some Jew wants a manorrah put somewhere in public and the Christian right throws a fucking fit. It's no wonder the Christians are feeling threatened. People are sick of the fucking bullshit and more people are wising up to the ridiculousness of it all.

YES!~ I am wiling to APPRECIATE and RESPECT other religion's public displays.

I call bullshit on this. It's not reasonable to try to APPRECIATE and RESPECT every other religions traditions in public. There are plenty of privately owned places to do that kind of thing. If a restaurant wants to have a Baby Jesus Sunday Bloody Mary Breakfast and Brunch, I have no problem with that, honestly because I can choose whether or not I want to go there.

I pretty much loathe organized religions in general but it's the fucking Christians that fuel almost all of these debates and stupid fucking controversy. Is it REALLY that big of a deal to have someone say "Happy Holidays"? Can you just try to imagine for a minute that there are other views and traditions that exist in this country and respect that? Give it a rest.

[Markarado]

I have no problem with you or anyone calling it Happy Holidays. I have no problem if a department store chooses to celebrate a holiday in a way that is religiously unorientated.

While a very small percentage of Christians complain about the shit you mentioned above, there are MANY more non-Christians that complain about anything that has to do with Christianity.

Celebrate Christmas how you please, but don't complain when a country founded on Christian principals celebrates an originally religious holiday in a religous way.

[Arlos]

Oh, you didn't just do that, Mark. R O F L.

Show me where, *ANYWHERE* I have said ONE WORD against the right of *ANYONE* to privately celebrate Christmas, as Christians, as they see fit. You know what? You won't find it, cause I never said it. Period. A Christian has every right to celebrate their holiday however they want to, up to and including, as I said, hourly renditions of The Nativity Scene on their front lawn for all to see.

In case you hadn't noticed, you close-minded prick, there are MANY faiths who have celebrations at this time of year, Christianity by no means has any sort of lock or pre-eminence for celebrating. You want to celebrate Christmas, and tell people, "Merry Christmas", feel free, it's your right. You are, however, ignoring all of the millions of people who are celebrating their own holidays. Jewish people are celebrating hanukkah, those who believe in it are celebrating Kwanzaa, Pagans (and others) are celebrating the Winter Solstice, and that's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Why the FUCK should I have to suborn *MY* religious holiday simply because I happen to follow a faith that is less popular than some others? That's fucking bullshit, and I won't stand for it.

How is it SO offensive to you for a store to say "Happy Holidays" in order to be INCLUSIVE of all faiths, instead of "Merry Christmas"? Is your faith so weak that even the hint of acknowledging other religions makes your gizzard churn?

Oh, and about your precious fucking "Christmas Tradition", did you know the very CELEBRATION of Christmas was INVENTED because the early church was jealous that some people who were nominally Christian were still celebrating an old pagan festival, the Feast of Mithras? Despite all the biblical evidence the Christ was born probably sometime around, oh, JUNE, they picked the same damn time as the Mithras Festival, because while people refused to stop holding a winter solstice celebration, they were fine with giving it Christian trappings instead of sticking entirely to the old version. Oh, and Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, etc? Pagan symbols originally, also co-opted by Christianity.

Lastly, I see your reading comprehension failed you once more, as you failed to notice in my previous comments, the fact that I wouldn't even support public/governmental displays OF MY OWN GODDAMN FAITH, because it would be Unconstitutional. What applies to one religion, applies to them all, INCLUDING MY OWN. That's what equality IS, and guess what, by the fucking Constitution, *ALL* religions are supposedly equal.

Now, in closing, you may wish to examine your own prejudices and faith there, pal. I have a hint for you: you're not fucking persecuted, and some store clerk saying "Happy Holidays" is not an affront to your religion, whatever it may be. Get over thinking you're somehow special because you glommed onto a faith with a good marketing campaign. Someone who has really examined Christianity and still turned to it as a spiritual path, I can respect, though I disagree with them. YOU, well, I have more respect for scum I scrape off the bottom of my shoe after a walk through the garbage dump.

Since I doubt your feeble mind was able to comprehend all of that, let me condense it for you: Shut the fuck up you stupid motherfucker.

-Arlos

[Dylan]

Zing.

[Trielelvan]

Celebrate Christmas how you please, but don't complain when a country founded on Christian principals celebrates an originally religious holiday in a religous way.

[numatu]

This thread is full of generalizations and assumptions, with the added bonus of pure hatred for groups of people. Sounds like a winner.

It's amazing how both "sides" are exactly the same, in all the ways that really count.

[numatu]

I'm not a religious person and I do not attend church. I am not offended with people saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hanukkah" to me even though I don't follow the tenets of those faiths. I also don't have a problem with nativity scenes being on public property. It's not about religion it's about simple tradition.

A nativity scene financed by the government though, I would have a problem with, as that's showing preference to Christianity, which is, of course, Unconstitutional.

No where in the Constitution does it say the government cannot have a preference to any religion. It simply cannot establish a specific religion officially. The founders were well aware of the Church of England and did not want a clone of it in the United States. There are preferences to Christianity in its broadest sense everywhere in American history, from the founders' government protocol of swearing in political officials with a Bible, to the creation of national holidays, and even the U.S. Capitol has a walking tour of "our Creator".

Jefferson and Madison were instrumental in most of these protocols and were obviously not considered unconstitutional whatsoever. It's a harmless expression of the historical background to which this country's government was crafted and founded upon.

As a non-Christian, I am not offended by any of these things. My personal freedoms are not hindered in any way by the public expressions of these historical traditions. I do not feel excluded or any less of an American citizen. If anything, I take the opportunity as a chance to research more about how these traditions were so important to American history, and perhaps learn something new.

[Zanchief]

I'm not a religious person and I do not attend church. I am not offended with people saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hanukkah" to me even though I don't follow the tenets of those faiths. I also don't have a problem with nativity scenes being on public property. It's not about religion it's about simple tradition.

See that's the thing, we don't have a problem with people saying merry Christmas and if they do I'll say right back at you. The problem is when people like Wallmart decide to include people of all religions in the holiday festivities you get people like Mindia and Markado screaming bloody murder about the assault on Christmas. They're trying to be INCLUSIVE, where is the harm in that? You aren't being victimized you whiny little turds. I've never met a more whiny self entitled group then Christians. You're running the world and still you're the victim.

S T F U please and thank you.

[Narrock]

Let's not forget that in America, Christmas is a Federal holiday.

[Narrock]

I'm not a religious person and I do not attend church. I am not offended with people saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hanukkah" to me even though I don't follow the tenets of those faiths. I also don't have a problem with nativity scenes being on public property. It's not about religion it's about simple tradition.

See that's the thing, we don't have a problem with people saying merry Christmas and if they do I'll say right back at you. The problem is when people like Wallmart decide to include people of all religions in the holiday festivities you get people like Mindia and Markado screaming bloody murder about the assault on Christmas. They're trying to be INCLUSIVE, where is the harm in that? You aren't being victimized you whiny little turds. I've never met a more whiny self entitled group then Christians. You're running the world and still you're the victim.

S T F U please and thank you.

Can you pull your head out of your rectum for at least one minute? Please? BestBuy specifically ordered all employees to say "happy holidays" to the customers, and if an employee says "merry Christmas" to a customer, then they will be terminated. They are doing this because they don't want a lawsuit from some wacked out Kwanzite or Mooselimb getting all bent out of shape because an employee said "Merry Christmas" to them. It's not the Christians who are the problem here... it's the imbecillic corporations like BestBuy, attorneys, and maggots who don't respect our national heritage.

[10sun]

It's not the Christians who are the problem here... it's the imbecillic corporations like BestBuy, attorneys, and maggots who don't respect our national heritage.

I agree with you that it is an issue that has been blown out of proportion, however I disagree with you on several points.

A) Its not a fear of lawsuits, its the lust for money. People tend to shy away from those who say certain things and simply assume that you belong to a certain sect of the population.

B) The United States of America's founding fathers were predominately Deists, not "Christians". It is an easy mistake to make, as many of the core values were the same during that time period and today. However, historical documentation has shown that to be the truth, vulgar as it may be to your ears.

[Narrock]

It's not the Christians who are the problem here... it's the imbecillic corporations like BestBuy, attorneys, and maggots who don't respect our national heritage.

I agree with you that it is an issue that has been blown out of proportion, however I disagree with you on several points.

A) Its not a fear of lawsuits, its the lust for money. People tend to shy away from those who say certain things and simply assume that you belong to a certain sect of the population.

B) The United States of America's founding fathers were predominately Deists, not "Christians". It is an easy mistake to make, as many of the core values were the same during that time period and today. However, historical documentation has shown that to be the truth, vulgar as it may be to your ears.

BestBuy just made the announcement a couple days ago. They are afraid of lawsuits. It was all over the news.

[10sun]

It's not the Christians who are the problem here... it's the imbecillic corporations like BestBuy, attorneys, and maggots who don't respect our national heritage.

I agree with you that it is an issue that has been blown out of proportion, however I disagree with you on several points.

A) Its not a fear of lawsuits, its the lust for money. People tend to shy away from those who say certain things and simply assume that you belong to a certain sect of the population.

B) The United States of America's founding fathers were predominately Deists, not "Christians". It is an easy mistake to make, as many of the core values were the same during that time period and today. However, historical documentation has shown that to be the truth, vulgar as it may be to your ears.

BestBuy just made the announcement a couple days ago. They are afraid of lawsuits. It was all over the news.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u ... earch+News

http://mediamatters.org/items/200612200012 was the only result on the first three pages of results that had anything to do with "Merry Christmas".

I must assume there was a radio program that you heard this on, thus causing it to be all over the news?

[Arlos]

BestBuy specifically ordered all employees to say "happy holidays" to the customers,

Mindia, retail companies almost always have a script for their employees that they're required to say. Some are pretty silly, like one store I know of, the employees are required to greet the customer with, "Hello, how may I provide you with excellent service today?" (to which my initial reaction is almost invariably to respond, "By stop uttering such mindless platitudes" rofl.) If the employees DON'T follow the scripts, they can be terminated. This is just one such script.

In any case, having employees say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Chistmas" in an effort to be inclusive is not an assault on christmas or christianity. It's merely wanting to include EVERYONE who has a celebration this time of year. Why should Best Buy exclude, say, Ganzo from their holiday wishes? Is his religious holiday unimportant? Or me? Is mine? I think we both can agree that saying "Merry christmas, happy Hannukah, happy Kwanzaa, merry yule-tide greetings" would be an oversized mouthful, yes? So what's wrong with Happy Holidays? Am I going to be offended by someone saying "Merry Christmas"? No, of course not. But am I likelier to spend money in a store, and feel better about their business if they make the minimal effort to include MY holiday by saying "Happy Holidays" instead? You betcha.

Let's not forget that in America, Christmas is a Federal holiday.

Actually, Christmas in America is a rather young tradition. Christmas was BANNED by the Puritans. You know, the people who came over on the Mayflower, and settled all of New England. Completely banned Christmas celebrations entirely. Indeed, late into the 1800s, it was grounds for immediate termination to miss work on the 25th. Christmas wasn't made a federal holiday until 1870, actually years after Thanksgiving was made a holiday, which was done by Abraham Lincoln. So yes, that's right, Thanksgiving has been a holiday in America longer than Christmas has.

Anyway, I know you don't think much of Paganism, and thus have little concern for recognizing our celebrations, but I know you respect Judaism. So, why do you advocate retailers ignoring Hannukah?

-Arlos

[10sun]

So, why do you advocate retailers ignoring Hannukah?

To play The Devil's Advocate,

Maybe because Hannukah is a very minor holiday on the Judaic calender?

[Narrock]

BestBuy specifically ordered all employees to say "happy holidays" to the customers,

Mindia, retail companies almost always have a script for their employees that they're required to say. Some are pretty silly, like one store I know of, the employees are required to greet the customer with, "Hello, how may I provide you with excellent service today?" (to which my initial reaction is almost invariably to respond, "By stop uttering such mindless platitudes" rofl.) If the employees DON'T follow the scripts, they can be terminated. This is just one such script.

In any case, having employees say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Chistmas" in an effort to be inclusive is not an assault on christmas or christianity. It's merely wanting to include EVERYONE who has a celebration this time of year. Why should Best Buy exclude, say, Ganzo from their holiday wishes? Is his religious holiday unimportant? Or me? Is mine? I think we both can agree that saying "Merry christmas, happy Hannukah, happy Kwanzaa, merry yule-tide greetings" would be an oversized mouthful, yes? So what's wrong with Happy Holidays? Am I going to be offended by someone saying "Merry Christmas"? No, of course not. But am I likelier to spend money in a store, and feel better about their business if they make the minimal effort to include MY holiday by saying "Happy Holidays" instead? You betcha.

Let's not forget that in America, Christmas is a Federal holiday.

Actually, Christmas in America is a rather young tradition. Christmas was BANNED by the Puritans. You know, the people who came over on the Mayflower, and settled all of New England. Completely banned Christmas celebrations entirely. Indeed, late into the 1800s, it was grounds for immediate termination to miss work on the 25th. Christmas wasn't made a federal holiday until 1870, actually years after Thanksgiving was made a holiday, which was done by Abraham Lincoln. So yes, that's right, Thanksgiving has been a holiday in America longer than Christmas has.

Anyway, I know you don't think much of Paganism, and thus have little concern for recognizing our celebrations, but I know you respect Judaism. So, why do you advocate retailers ignoring Hannukah?

-Arlos

I don't advocate retailers ignoring Hannukah. How is saying "Merry Christmas" ignoring Hannukah? I just heard a talk show last night where dozens of Jews called in to say that they love Christmas and will even say "Merry Christmas" back to somebody who says it to them. Those are real people.

[Narrock]

In fact, here's a very prominent Hollywood Jew with some interesting thoughts:

Ben Stein wrote:

Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart:

I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is, either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife.

Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. Is this what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad.

Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

[10sun]

I don't advocate retailers ignoring Hannukah. How is saying "Merry Christmas" ignoring Hannukah? I just heard a talk show last night where dozens of Jews called in to say that they love Christmas and will even say "Merry Christmas" back to somebody who says it to them. Those are real people.

This reinforces the basic understanding of marketing that I have and the conclusions I have drawn due to a lack of evidence pointing to Best Buy being "afraid of lawsuits".

The switch to Happy Holidays was a marketing move, not anything else.

-Adam

ps. Thank you for calling McLeodUSA's customer service center of excellence, my name is Adam, how can I help you?

That was my script.