Some good news....

[Evermore]

Keeping Commissar Bush and the Soviet Socialist Republicans in check

[Lyion]

I'm curious why you're against national standards for licenses. Can you explain why?

Which other parts of the Real ID act don't you agree with? National standards for Drivers licenses not only makes sense, but will simplify things greatly.

* Establishing national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards

* Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;

* Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;

* Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds, but for aliens that have been released pending hearings);

* Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security;

* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australians.

[Narrock]

You don't think this new ID card will help reduce terrorist attacks on U.S. soil? How is this at all a bad thing? OMG we have to go to DMV to fill out forms? OH NOES... OH THE INCONVENIENCE!!!

edit: This was directed at Evermore, not you Lyion. You ninja-posted.

[Xaiveir]

Ive got to say, this is one thing that i actually agree with from the Bush Administration. Anything that will make it tougher for terrorists to move about the people, and forge ID's im for, as long as its not giving up some of my personal liberties. I dont see it with this. There may be afew minor tweaks that i would do, but as a whole its a pretty good idea.

[Narrock]

Ive got to say, this is one thing that i actually agree with from the Bush Administration. Anything that will make it tougher for terrorists to move about the people, and forge ID's im for, as long as its not giving up some of my personal liberties. I dont see it with this. There may be afew minor tweaks that i would do, but as a whole its a pretty good idea.

Just proof right there that Evermore will go against anything and everything the Bush administration comes up with. That's pretty narrow-minded.

[Zanchief]

Isn't universal ID cards a big no no from religious folks who think it's one of the signs of the apocalypse?

[Narrock]

Isn't universal ID cards a big no no from religious folks who think it's one of the signs of the apocalypse?

No, that's the chip implant that will be required worldwide.

[Zanchief]

Isn't universal ID cards a big no no from religious folks who think it's one of the signs of the apocalypse?

No, that's the chip implant that will be required worldwide.

Wouldn't that help stop terrorists?

[Martrae]

Bible doesn't say 'chip' it says something like cashless society (hello credit and debit cards) and an international form of ID.

I'll bet they go to requiring everyone to get a passport and boom there you are.

[araby]

there are chips that are currently being used that we are unaware of. I suppose the universal ID we might be talking about could be the one that you decide to have. isn't that also accompanied with the belief in someone (the antichrist) according to the bible. would that necessarily be in direct correlation with the universal ID or is it considered separate? (according to the bible I mean)

[Scatillac]

The Chip is Considered "The Mark of the Beast"
in Revelations

13:16 He causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slave, to be given marks on their right hands, or on their foreheads;

13:17 and that no one would be able to buy or to sell, unless he has that mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name.

13:18 Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six.

[Tossica]

Bush is the fucking antichrist. Isn't it obvious yet?

[Martrae]

Except the Antichrist is supposed to come from the Middle East.

[Xaiveir]

Except the Antichrist is supposed to come from the Middle East.

When is Bush scheduled to be in the middle east again?

[Evermore]

You don't think this new ID card will help reduce terrorist attacks on U.S. soil? How is this at all a bad thing? OMG we have to go to DMV to fill out forms? OH NOES... OH THE INCONVENIENCE!!!

edit: This was directed at Evermore, not you Lyion. You ninja-posted.

Read this

Just proof right there that Evermore will go against anything and everything the Bush administration comes up with. That's pretty narrow-minded.

When are you going to come out the fucking shell you live in and see this shit for what it is? I'll tell you what. You support it, You pay for it. all 11 billion it's estimated to cost. now that cost is being dumped on the states. Also, it wont do a damn thing to combat terrorism. nothing. it would be better to institute retinal scans. nd lets leave out the fact this is unconsitiutional. how the fuck did you get to be so damn blind?

Why do I go against bush? Could it be the 500 trillion dollars wasted in a needless war? Or the 3000+ soldiers who died in a conflict we just should not be in? Could it be the pathetic leadership in general? Face it, bush is a shitty leader. no question about it. he wouldnt have so much opposition if he was a good leader. If would come up with something that actually WORKS i would support it.

You were talking about the ID chips thats mentioned in the bible? You dont see this as a step in that direction?

I would love to see what life looks like in your bubble.



EDIT: let me add what you do not seem to understand is that government itself does not work. Bush has just made it worse.

[Arlos]

I'm against a national ID card system, period, because it impinges upon our historic right to freely move around the country as we see fit. Right now, anyone, anywhere, can pay cash, and hop onto a bus or train and travel anywhere within the continental US freely. Changing that, even to the extent of needing to show ID as a passenger is the first step towards irrevocably changing this country from an open one to a closed society. 'Cause I guarantee the next step will be "Travel Papers" being necessary to authorize going places.

Also, what possibly would give ANYONE the idea that a national ID card would be any more difficult to forge than current driver's licenses? How many of knew at least a half a dozen people in high school with fake IDs, knew who to talk to to get one, or actually had one? (I didn't ever have one, but knew people with them, and probably could've gotten one myself if I'd wanted). People even get forged passports fairly readily.

Not to mention, it would give officials another lever by which to harass the average citizen. Plus, I'm against putting walls up on our borders. Police states fence in their populaces behind concrete and barbed wire. Free states do not. We used to be about tearing down walls (see: Berlin), not putting them up. Rather radical change, methinks.

So, that's right, you can count me as definitively against a national ID card program, period. The civil liberties cost is just too high, and the slippery slope it puts us on as far as ceding control over our free movement about the country is just too scary for such a measure to be allowed to pass.

-Arlos

PS. Do note that the Maine vote against the act was a completely bipartisan one. State senate was unanimous, and the assembly was 137-4. This is hardly a small group of liberals fighting it. Especially when it's places like Montana that are also opposing it.

[Xaiveir]

I'm against a national ID card system, period, because it impinges upon our historic right to freely move around the country as we see fit. Right now, anyone, anywhere, can pay cash, and hop onto a bus or train and travel anywhere within the continental US freely. Changing that, even to the extent of needing to show ID as a passenger is the first step towards irrevocably changing this country from an open one to a closed society. 'Cause I guarantee the next step will be "Travel Papers" being necessary to authorize going places.

Also, what possibly would give ANYONE the idea that a national ID card would be any more difficult to forge than current driver's licenses? How many of knew at least a half a dozen people in high school with fake IDs, knew who to talk to to get one, or actually had one? (I didn't ever have one, but knew people with them, and probably could've gotten one myself if I'd wanted). People even get forged passports fairly readily.

Not to mention, it would give officials another lever by which to harass the average citizen. Plus, I'm against putting walls up on our borders. Police states fence in their populaces behind concrete and barbed wire. Free states do not. We used to be about tearing down walls (see: Berlin), not putting them up. Rather radical change, methinks.

So, that's right, you can count me as definitively against a national ID card program, period. The civil liberties cost is just too high, and the slippery slope it puts us on as far as ceding control over our free movement about the country is just too scary for such a measure to be allowed to pass.

-Arlos

PS. Do note that the Maine vote against the act was a completely bipartisan one. State senate was unanimous, and the assembly was 137-4. This is hardly a small group of liberals fighting it. Especially when it's places like Montana that are also opposing it.

After reading what Arlos said, and deliberating alittle more, i am going to have to agree with the majority and say im NOT for it.

[Narrock]

You don't think this new ID card will help reduce terrorist attacks on U.S. soil? How is this at all a bad thing? OMG we have to go to DMV to fill out forms? OH NOES... OH THE INCONVENIENCE!!!

edit: This was directed at Evermore, not you Lyion. You ninja-posted.

Read this

Just proof right there that Evermore will go against anything and everything the Bush administration comes up with. That's pretty narrow-minded.

When are you going to come out the fucking shell you live in and see this shit for what it is? I'll tell you what. You support it, You pay for it. all 11 billion it's estimated to cost. now that cost is being dumped on the states. Also, it wont do a damn thing to combat terrorism. nothing. it would be better to institute retinal scans. nd lets leave out the fact this is unconsitiutional. how the fuck did you get to be so damn blind?

Why do I go against bush? Could it be the 500 trillion dollars wasted in a needless war? Or the 3000+ soldiers who died in a conflict we just should not be in? Could it be the pathetic leadership in general? Face it, bush is a shitty leader. no question about it. he wouldnt have so much opposition if he was a good leader. If would come up with something that actually WORKS i would support it.

You were talking about the ID chips thats mentioned in the bible? You dont see this as a step in that direction?

I would love to see what life looks like in your bubble.



EDIT: let me add what you do not seem to understand is that government itself does not work. Bush has just made it worse.

I don't live in a shell at all. You're just making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Don't try to hide behind the cost factor. You are against everything Bush does, period. I see right through your bs.

If you ever got involved with any kind of bible study (I'm guessing probably not) you'd know that the chip is referring to a requirement to engage in any kind of commerce, and that to be eligible for this chip you would have to denounce God and accept the new world leader as your new "god" or "savior."

Bush is a Christian, and would never advocate or support the new world order chip.

Now, getting back to the ID card... if it means we will live safer as a society by requiring this ID, then I'd be all for it.

[Arlos]

That's just the thing, Mindia, we WOULDN'T. If teenagers can get falsified documents, you know damn well that terrorists would as well. Even if the actual papers are hard to forge, look at how many DMV employees get caught selling fake driver's licenses. One DMV clerk with access to the databases who's willing to take a bribe.... And you know such people exist, because it's inevitable.

So, how exactly would a card that by its very nature is insecure help our security?

What it WOULD do though is give the government even more total knowledge about the private daily lives of all of its citizens, and give further means for outfits like spam companies new ways to build up databases on everyone. You don't think that if you had to present an ID to buy something at a store, that the stores wouldnt' save your personal data when they swipe your card, and sell that info? They do it NOW.

Then, when you throw in the fact that it would mark a historic change of focus of society...

I simply don't understand how ANYONE could support something that wouldn't help security one iota, and would generate numerous severe downsides on top of it.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

We already have a national ID system in ones Social Security number. Anyways, that has nothing to do with this. This is about standardized Drivers Licenses, which is a good idea.

Everything about you is already contained in your credit report. This merely helps to coordinate things so that we don't have 50 different drivers license systems.

So, which of these is a bad idea, Arlos?

* Establishing national standards for state-issued driver's licenses and non-driver's identification cards

* Waiving laws that interfere with construction of physical barriers at the borders;

* Updating and tightening the laws on application for asylum and deportation of aliens for terrorist activity;

* Introducing rules covering "delivery bonds" (rather like bail bonds, but for aliens that have been released pending hearings);

* Funding some reports and pilot projects related to border security;

* Changing visa limits for temporary workers, nurses, and Australians.

[Arlos]

There's a shitload more to the act than those points, Lyion. The changes are dramatic enough that it would cost the states hundreds of millions of dollars to change their systems, none of which is funded by the federal government, and thus would have to be paid for by the states.

As for your points, some comments:

1) Why do we NEED national standards for driver's licenses and non-driver ID cards? What purpose does it serve? Why shoudl the states lose their rights to determine who they do or do not feel is qualified to have a driver's license? Who's to say a national system would work everywhere, especially cases like states with rural farming communities, who allow for special licenses for much younger drivers for specific circumstances? Why should we be ceding such powers to the federal government? How would it make us 1 iota safer, when documents will be just as easy to forge, and corrupt DMV employees just as available?

2) What laws would be waived, and what purposes were those laws put into place? Some of those laws might have very GOOD reasons for existing, and they would be just thrown aside willy-nilly. Also, I am AGAINST building fences around this nation. The USSR fenced its people in. Since when did we become PRO-Berlin Wall? No matter how much you try and claim we're fencing people out (and what then to "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses"?), a fence works both ways. You fence out, you fence in at the same time.

3) Why is a national ID card a necessary component to altering laws for asylum and deportation? Would it make asylum harder or easier to petition for? Do we really want to turn away people genuinely seeking asylum for real reasons? If someone committs terrorist acts on our soil, I'd hope we'd be doing a lot mroe than just deporting them, so why would such a change be necessary?

4) What's wrong with the current system? Couldn't any loopholes be fixed without introducing an entirely new and untried system? Again, what does this have to do with mandating a national ID system for all citizens?

5) You claim that the government is incapable of funding reports on border security, and initiating pilot projects without everyone possessing a national ID? Are you insane?

6) Change the visa limits how? Are we now so glutted with nurses that we need to change their visa limits? Has there been a rash of "Evil Nurses" committing heinous crimes that we've not been told about, that we need to single them out for some special treatment? Are we at war with Australia now or something? Again, NONE of these changes, even if they are necessary or useful, requires anything resembling a national ID card.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

This has nothing to do with any sort of anti Federalist agenda. It merely has to do with allowing ease of information sharing between states and to streamline a system that is used for identification that is wrongly disparate.

Standards are good. It allows for people to visit a new DMV in a new state and get out in 20 minutes versus 2 hours. It also allows for child molesters not to hop to a new state and snag a new ID with no repercussions because the systems do not intercommunicate.

I don't see any laws being waived, nor do I see any liberty impact outside of the fear mongering being wrongly represented here. Please tell me any laws being violated.

The latter things you are addressing are merely addendums to this particular bill that Evermore is against without any good factual reasoning why. I still don't see any. Well, outside of it's from those evil Republicans.

Please, give me standardization across all states. Give me one Federal ID Card for legal aliens, and allow for less fraud and child molesters to be able to buck the system since state systems cannot communicate with each other for no good and viable reason.

[Zanchief]

I'm going to have to agree with the fascists on this one, I really wouldn't care of a similar thing was introduced here. Hell, I don't really mind have a chip put in my brain personally.

[Scatillac]

I don't live in a shell at all. You're just making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Don't try to hide behind the cost factor. You are against everything Bush does, period. I see right through your bs.

Maybe that is becaue everything he has done so far has been an absolute fuckup?

[Harrison]

Everything is going overboard, and borderlines on pure stupidity and ignorance.

A lot, obviously, everything...now you're just fucking dumb.