Iraq war

[Tossica]

Reagan was a worthless piece of shit president too. The senile old fucker didn't even know where he was most of the time. Another stooge put in place by corporate fuckfaces looking to cash in on the big money grab with ZERO concern for the average American and their families.

[Lyion]

You solely care about attacking the Bush administration, which is why you'll use any source, any time as long as it caters to what you want to hear. Someone interested in truth would look at all angles. You have one angle.

Hey Lyion, here's a mirror.

Nice contribution, although I guess I did start it. I know, right?

I certainly do not solely support the Bush Administration, as I disagree with them often. I certainly don't support them just because of who they are, unlike others who hate them *solely* due to who they are. I like politicians cross spectrum, and cross party, as I've posted numerous times.

Evermore, I certainly agree there are many inept people in W's administration, and I'm irked it took so long to fire Rumsfeld and to start to fix all the issues in DOD. I do feel the Bush Administration, like many before, smacks of cronyism which I find distasteful. I do like Powell and Rice and feel both of them have done well.

I do think you are being a bit overboard, don't you think? Do you dislike W because of his policies, which I'll gladly discuss or do you just hate the guy because he's an (R) and will gladly repeat that he lied, committed crimes and other unproven, unwarranted silliness that is not seriously based in fact.

[Evermore]

You solely care about attacking the Bush administration, which is why you'll use any source, any time as long as it caters to what you want to hear. Someone interested in truth would look at all angles. You have one angle.

Hey Lyion, here's a mirror.

Nice contribution, although I guess I did start it. I know, right?

I certainly do not solely support the Bush Administration, as I disagree with them often. I certainly don't support them just because of who they are, unlike others who hate them *solely* due to who they are. I like politicians cross spectrum, and cross party, as I've posted numerous times.

Evermore, I certainly agree there are many inept people in W's administration, and I'm irked it took so long to fire Rumsfeld and to start to fix all the issues in DOD. I do feel the Bush Administration, like many before, smacks of cronyism which I find distasteful. I do like Powell and Rice and feel both of them have done well.

I do think you are being a bit overboard, don't you think? Do you dislike W because of his policies, which I'll gladly discuss or do you just hate the guy because he's an (R) and will gladly repeat that he lied, committed crimes and other unproven, unwarranted silliness that is not seriously based in fact.

Honestly Lyion its a combination of both. Bush's bullshit is public and I am not going to rehash the facts of this. IMO we need to move beyond. there are bigger issues to deal with now. Here is just a start to the reasons I cannot stand Bush: Signing Statements

[Tossica]

Powell and Rice are fine. I don't believe they are totally corrupt. Bush, Cheney, Rove, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld etc are the ones I have problems with. Good thing a couple of them have been cut loose.

[Zanchief]

I like politicians cross spectrum, and cross party, as I've posted numerous times.

Feel free to post a positive article about Clinton (Hilary or Bill), Gore, Edwards, Kerry or Obama.

You've posted numerous slanderous articles on their subject but never a single positive one. How is your behaviour any different from Evermore?

[Spazz]

Chief its very difficult to say anything nice about the people on your list becuase they are all shitty. To add some balence Newt, Bush and RUDY all suck too. Polititions disgust me .

[Tossica]

I still don't get what everyones problem with Bill Clinton and Al Gore is? I have no opinion on Edwards or Obama, Kerry is a weak candidate and Hillary is well, Hillary but Gore and Bill Clinton did great things for the country and I think most of the hatred from the right comes from the fact that they KNOW they did great things for the country and it burns them because they are not R.

[Zanchief]

Yet he's never posted a negative article about any of those people either.

He may have made a few passing comments about Bush (mostly to balance the love he gave him in his first term "Best President Ever"), but he pretty much sticks with his boys.

[Lyion]

I don't 'like' any politician. I don't know any of them. I discuss issues. I discuss policy. I agree with certain actions, and disagree with others.

I thought the Iraq war was done for the right reasons, I think it was an eventuality and I support winning it. So did the Democrats before it was politicized, and a few who aren't pure political game players, like Joe Leiberman. I've repeated numerous times I believe Rumsfeld was incompetent and I dislike the fact post invasion things were run by DOD.

I've posted I like Schumer from New York, and believe he understands the game besides being very intellectual and inline with many of my social views. I've argued with Spazz about him, I think. He plays politics well. I like Hillary. I think she's shrewd and I agree with some of her positions. I also think she's ruthless. I don't know Obama, but he seems a good man. I don't know Edwards, but he's a trial lawyer whose fame is based on massive lawsuits, so I don't care for that aspect of him

The problem is there is a contigent on this board who suffer from Bush Derangement System and do the zomg Bushitler Antichrist routine nonstop. On the flip side I know many on the other side acted similar when Clinton was in office, and I equally thought that was boorish as I think Clinton is a good man, just like I think Bush is. I have many issues I disagree with both of them on, but again it's policy and issues, not personal.

Anyways, probably my bad for joining in a debate about a thread from Daily Kos, the worst partisan hate site on the Internet.

[Gaazy]

/shrug I have to agree that I dont like politicians. I stay out of your alls debates because they never go anywhere. Same stuff, different threads. Its interesting to read though every now and again and I learn a thing or two about whats goin on, because why go anywhere else for teh news when you have it all here, with personal attacks and all included, on NT!

Oh, and its fun reading Evermore go over the deep end on everything.

[Evermore]

The problem is there is a contigent on this board who suffer from Bush Derangement System and do the zomg Bushitler Antichrist routine nonstop.

Could this be because some realize just how bad Bush really is? Could it be that some of us are tired of watching US lives and tax dollars going down the toilet in a fruitless attempt at imperialism? Could it be that the time has come and now is long past to say "enough is enough"?

[Arlos]

Lyion, you forget that I was in High School during Reagan's 2nd term, so my memories of his days in office are my own, not those of my parents. Some of the information I have about him, from his days as Governor of California, I got from them, sure. His actions as Governor are specifically why they voted for Carter in 1980, despite all his fuckups. Prior to that, both generally voted Republican (though they despised Nixon), and my dad was particularly fond of Goldwater, and voted for him more than once when we lived in Arizona in the 70s. It was the radicalizing of the right wing that started with Reagan that caused them to abandon the Republican party.

You tout the economy... Funny, doesn't feel that great from my end. How many people are under-employed now compared to when Clinton was in office? How many tens and hundreds of thousands of tech jobs have been outsourced since 2000, and has Bush or the Republicans acted at all to stem the flow? No. I see the middle class as shrinking, drastically, with the amount of poor increasing significantly, while the amount of the uber-wealthy is not increasing, but the percentage of the country's wealth they control has risen dramatically.

As for the War, I believe now as I did when it started that it was begun under false pretenses. I believe this has been shown by the fact that the story of WHY we went kept changing. Furthermore, you just have to look at what the Neocons, including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. had been advocating since the mid-90s, which was a direct invasion of iraq. You honestly think they suddenly stopped wanting to invade just because they got into office? Hah. I believe they used 9/11 as an excuse to do what they already wanted to, and that they would have trumped up some cause in order to invade, regardless of its veracity. Indeed, I believe Richard Clarke when he talked about behind the scenes, in that they were fixing intelligence to meet preconceived interests regarding Iraq. So, ultimately, I believe we went for the reasons laid out in PNAC's mission statement, plus Bush wanting to cater to his cronies at big oil and big energy. Can you deny the profits oil companies have made since we went to war?

I keep telling you to provide me with something POSITIVE that the Bush administration has done, and I'll happily give them kudos for it. To date, I'm not aware of one, just a string of bungles going back to letting us get attacked on 9/11 in the first place (yes, I believe Clarke here too, that they ignored the threat warnings. I mean "A ordered set of action items" isn't a plan? "Al Qaida determined to attack US" was a historical document? Pull the other one.) Then there's the mess that became of the economy, turning a budget surplus into all-time record deficits, slashing of social spending, tailoring his tax cuts to overwhelmingly benefit the uber-rich, the Terry Schiavo debacle, his "faith-based" initiatives, his disregard for science... Oh yeah, he's been a winner.

When he came into office I didn't like the man. I didn't start to despise him until he was in office and fucking things up. So, no, he wasn't by any means "worst ever" when he stepped into the office. I'm still not sure he's reached "worst ever" yet still, I still give that title to the president before Lincoln, who watched the country disintegrate around him and did nothing to stop it. Worst 2-termer, that he is, yes, even over Nixon, cause at least Nixon did some good before he started breaking the law.

So, to sum up:

I believe the war was fought for oil and for the benefit of the military industrial complex, not because of WMDs or "freedom" or any other such reason. I furthermore believe that you've hardcore swallowed the Kool-aid if you still believe the public reasons given for going.

I believe the war has turned into the worst foreign relations gaffe and debacle in this nation's history. If it wasn't to begin with (and it probably was), it certainly is *NOW*, after the historically bad mismanagement with which it was run.

I believe the current conomy is a) eroding the middle class, b) benefits the rich disproportionally, and c) is outsourcing far more jobs than is remotely healthy.

I don't think there's a single social issue on which the President and I agree. Abortion, science, drugs, the administration's support of torture, etc. etc. etc.

I believe that Bush has engaged in a completely authoritarian power grab for the presidency that no vigilant congress would or should have allowed, and it is good to see some of the excesses finally being called out and reigned in.

Furthermore, I hardly see "Dem: good, Repub: Bad", as you would like to over-simplify. I've made my reservations about Hillary (and others) quite clear, and have posted before when McCain or someone else on the right does something I agree with. Of course, it's awful hard to like the Republicans when I rabidly disagree with 90% of their entire party platform, as I dissected in an earlier post, plank by plank. Why SHOULD I support a group who's very tenets of purpose and existance are things I am utterly opposed to? Explain that to me, hmmm?

Lastly, you keep trying to perpetuate your complete mistruth about the sources of my information. I know it makes it easier for you to sleep if you think I depend only on partisan sources, but actually the exact opposite is true. I deliberately avoid rabidly partisan sites of BOTH sides, and yes, that includes Fox News. I read newspapers, major news sites, from CNN to the BBC. So yes, I read multiple sources, and no, none of them are sites like MoveOn. Meanwhile, YOU obviously read rabidly partisan right-wing sources by default, because 90% of the articles you post come from them. Which one of us is getting their information from one source, hmmm?

-Arlos

[Harrison]

You ruin every thread by posting a book that no one wants to read.

It can normally be summed up in about one-two paragraphs, as usual.

[Spazz]

Arlos is an IN TI LECTUAL dont cha know. Considering that reading is what we do here his posts dont really bother me. Arlos speaks truth on just about everything cept guns. When he talks bout guns i wanna kick him in the knee.

[Gaazy]

No, sir, he speaks *opinion* on just about everything, like everyone else here.

[Tacks]

Arlos is an IN TI LECTUAL dont cha know. Considering that reading is what we do here his posts dont really bother me. Arlos speaks truth on just about everything cept guns. When he talks bout guns i wanna kick him in the knee.

LOL ok so as long as you agree with his views he speaks truth?

[Lyion]

I was in high school for Reagans FIRST and SECOND TERM as President. I was in the military when he was CINC, as well as Bush 1 and Clinton. That means nothing.

I grew up in California and my parents who are split Democrat and Republican evenly both believe Reagan did a wonderful job as Governor. They have issues, since my Mom is an East Coast liberal and my Dad is a former military and law enforcement officer with conservative views, but I'd say their viewpoint was vastly different from far left parents. Then again, one who thinks Carter was a brilliant President and Reagan sucked, probably isn't interested in the big picture.

The economy is doing excellently. This is a fact.

http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm

There will always be struggles in a free market economy, and those who desire a more socialist or anti competitive setup, but that doesn't change the simple facts of things, regardless of the spin one puts on it.

The Iraq war was passed by Congress with the same information that W had. The Intel committee had the same access and the same flow of documents from the sources, which are not from the Administration. The fact you want to blatantly lie and spread falsehoods that Bush 'lied' despite the fact it has been shown over and over this is not the case simply shows that you have one objective, drinking the real Kool Aid.

In regards to your sources, you will take ANYONE and quote them.. So long as they Bush Bash. That's fine. It works for Keith Olbermann. Perhaps you should apply for a job at MSNBC. Just don't try and say you are anything but a biased far left idealogue who has no interest in the truth or facts. There is Bias, and there is Arlos level of anrgry liberal bias. You're OUT there man. I mean, fucking Pluto!

You do simply equate "Repub" with bad. Democrat doesn't even come into the picture. It doesn't matter where you get your news. All that matters is it processes through the Bush Derangement Hater Arlos Brain and spits out 'Evoool Bushitler Bad Bad Bad'

It isn't my job to try and convince you of anything. I do like to discuss things, but as was stated earlier, its same shit, different day in regards to this forum and the BDS crew.

[ClakarEQ]

What about the over 20,000+ US troops maimed?

What about all the shit these guys and gals are going to get in when they get back to the motherland and get a swift kick in the ass and hit the streets, cuz our prez didn't plan

You righties are a fucking joke. You still stand by your man like an old beaten wife stands by hers.

Bush will go down in history as the WORST fucking president of all time and there isn't a damn thing your righties can do about it until some other fucking twit gets into office and does even a worse job and I don't think that is possible, stick that in your pipes and smoke it, nana poopoo ROFL.

Struck a nerve, belch, I laugh in your face, hahahaha

EDIT

All that said, I'll be the first in line to bitch slap any and every politician because they are only in it for money. You believe what you want but these folks give two shits about you, less you donate 20k (every year).

[Arlos]

When have I EVER said that Carter was a brilliant president? I think I've said NUMEROUS times I think he was a bad president, though not historically bad, but that he's been perhaps the greatest ever EX-president. As for Reagan, ask them if they think his shutting down the California mental health system, turning mentally ill patients out into the streets overnight, with no assistance whatsoever was a great idea. People incapable of surviving on their own, who were in long-term mental care fora reason. He literally kicked them out into the street overnight. Sorry, but that's reprehensible.

As for Republicans, I ask you again: Why should I support an organization who's very fundamental code of existance and organizational goals is made up of elements I am in rabid disagreement with? I went through their 2004 platform plank by plank, and showed what I disagreed with. Yet you bash me for not supporting them.... This makes sense, how? Are you next going to bash me for not supporting the KKK or neo-nazis, because I disagree with their fundamental platforms and organizational goals?

As for the war, I have seen sufficient evidence for me to believe that Congress was fed fixed information that was cooked to support the administration's pre-existing notions. If you want outright lies, how about all the times Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowtiz, etc. directly tied Iraq to 9/11 and/or al-Qaida during that time, despite the fact that we have documentary proof that the CIA, at the time, knew for a fact there were no such links? Regardless of that fact, Bush had a completely tame Congress in 2003, with absolute party unity on votes of that type, so it would have been passed regardless.

Once again, I find it laughable that the one person here who regularly posts articles from highly biased websites is the one pointing the finger about someone else being an idealogue, or only listening to information they want to hear. Talk about ironic...

Finding facts and truth is why I go to so many different news sources, and why I AVOID partisan sites of both sides. You, on the other hand, constantly read and quote from nothing but.

Lastly, I opposed this war from the begining because I KNEW it would be a debacle, which is plenty of reason to oppose it regardless of any other consideration. I don't hear you arguing too strenuously that it's NOT currently a debacle, hmmm? Then, so, if it IS a debacle, wouldn't it be better if said debacle had never occurred? Think of how many billions of dollars would have been saved, and how many thousands and tens of thousands of lives would've been saved.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

Can't we keep the sacastic fun we had? Why must it always get so goshed darn serious :\.

[Harrison]

What about all the shit these guys and gals are going to get in when they get back to the motherland and get a swift kick in the ass and hit the streets, cuz our prez didn't plan

Lay off the crack...

[ClakarEQ]

Unfortunatly I don't do crack, weed is my thing and I'm on my monthly break just now. Don't knock my leet rap sp33k (LOL). That be like me saying to you lay off the classical music (of course knowing you listen to rather hard stuff).

You will see, call me a prophet , just like my prediction of our wonderful war. or my prediction re: bush and katrina. I'm the next Casey, didn't you hear?

All kidding asside, Vets are going to be fucked over big time. Why do you think there are over 200,000 VETS on the streets HOMELESS, perhaps it is because we really don't give a flying fuck about them. Sorry, charlie, get over it, o wait, that's what the vets are going to hear when they get back ROFL.

[Lyion]

The problem isn't vets, it's the way we take care of people, period. That is a different argument unto itself.

[ClakarEQ]

The problem isn't vets, it's the way we take care of people, period. That is a different argument unto itself.

I agree with you. We as a people don't care about anything but ourselves.

My point holds truth though. When our country sees a large influx of troops coming back from iraq, I'll tell you how it will go.

Parades in every home town. Parties for all the troops that stuck in there (even though we'll lose, but it will be spun by all to a WIN). We'll say how proud we are, etc.

The next day well tell them to fuck off and get a job, NO you can't have a piece of my pie.

This is the wonderful world of USA. We should all be so proud. Write it down, remember it, call this post back up and see if I'm wrong. I'll be the first to eat my words.

The troops are screwed there, and they'll be nearly as screwed when they get back.

A few posts up, I'm a bit suprised no-one responded to the 20,000 troops maimed. As sick as this will sound, more should have died, perhaps it would end sooner. How does that phrase work, you know, one dies to save hundreds.

O, I best get back to work, all this harsh reality just set in and I best earn my piece for the next 15mins /evilgrin.

[Lueyen]

You ruin every thread by posting a book that no one wants to read.

It can normally be summed up in about one-two paragraphs, as usual.

While I may often times disagree with Arlos, I do find them interesting and worth reading. I'd rather read one of his posts then 20 "Bush is da devil" on liners.. maybe the same general idea at times but he backs himself up.