States dealing with abortion

[Tacks]

Here's a tip, most religious people are better parents and their kids are less likely to get pregnant, because they have better morals and discipline.

Bullshit. And too many people even blame the parents. Unless you were born an utter retard you should know better. Quit placing blame on everyone else and take responsibility for yourself.

[Tossica]

Here's a tip, most religious people are better parents and their kids are less likely to get pregnant, because they have better morals and discipline.

Laugh.

[Lyion]

Are you saying the parents aren't somewhat resposible if their 15 year old daughter gets pregnant?

Now, if someone is in their 20s, single, poor, and practices unsafe sex, they are either not thinking, or looking to up their welfare check, but I'd personally bet almost all unplanned pregnancies could be avoided with an ounce of accountability. I think the statistics are wrong. Safe sex rarely results in pregancy, despite skewed BS stats.

The question is what teaches one accountability?

[Tossica]

My girlfriends mom's family is very large (10 brothers and sisters) and very catholic. They have all but shunned her mother because she divorced my gf's dad in the 80's after 10+ years of abuse and neglect. They have all made her feel like shit for years warning that her kids will turn out to be heathens, her and her kids are going to hell, etc when in fact, all 3 of her kids are well adjusted, kind, compassionate human beings and the kids of all of the other "religious" brothers and sisters got pregnant in high school, turned in to meth heads and or abusive drunks, ended up in prison, etc.

Again, Laugh.

[Tossica]

I'm saying that religion has nothing to do with whether a parent is responsible and teaches valuable life lessons to their children or not.

[Lyion]

I disagree. There are examples on all sides. I don't think religion single handedly turns a bad parent into a good one, but I think more is derived from spirituality than some believe. Plus, there are many abstract issues. Not to mention the simple rules and respect demanded <and unfortunately often ignored> by most religions.

Much of how I behaved in my 20s when I was an avowed atheist was due to the way I was raised and my religious learnings.

Anyways, I don't want to hijack a good thread into a holy war.

I think the key is good parenting, education, and passing on accountability. It is to some degree an individual thing, and the best raised kids can make mistakes, but it's how we handle adversity that defines our character.

[Arlos]

And... how typical to blame the schools being held back by that evil religion for people getting pregnant. It has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with parenting. Here's a tip, most religious people are better parents and their kids are less likely to get pregnant, because they have better morals and discipline.

Heaven help we demand responsible parenting,

First of all, there is no way, whatsoever, that you can ever legislate "responsible parenting." Period. Not unless you're all for the government telling parents how to raise their kids now?

Second, absolute bullshit to the ultimate degree on "religious people are better parents". Absolutely laughable, completely at odds with facts, and quite insulting to any moral person who doesn't happen to feel the need to follow a religion. Indeed, the most moral people I have ever known are non-religionists, while I just have to look at people like Jimmy Swaggart, James Bakker, or hell, all of those molesting catholic priests *AND* the senior clergy that protected them, etc. for proof that plenty of highly immoral people are highly religious.

Now, I think there is little argument about whether or not someone who has been taught in depth about pregnancy, birth control, etc. is less likely to get pregnant, yes? So, if you really want to cut down on abortions, wouldn't it make sense to make sure that EVERYONE has the BEST possible knowledge and training in those issues? Yet what does the religious right do? Throw a fit any time a school tries to teach ANYTHING besides "Sex: Don't do it until married", etc.

I'm sorry, high school kids are GOING to be fucking, no matter who tells them not to. Period, end of story, that's it. Since you CANNOT guarantee that parents will teach their kids this stuff, nor can you force them to, it falls on the schools to do it. Yet they are being hamstrung in those efforts. Your old-hat bleating about the teachers union is out of place and irrelevant in this discussion.

-Arlos

[Yamori]

I can see the 15% failure rate of condoms making sense in a real-world usage perspective. I'd assume those figures would include people who use expired ones (ie, more easily breakable), don't put them on right or get the wrong size, don't check them for holes, ect.

[Lyion]

I never said non religious people were by and large worse parents, I simply said I believe religious parents are better in the context of this thread, which regards episodes of teen pregnancy. I personally feel they are, but that's a different argument, and the facts are certainly with me there.

I should've known personal hatred for religion would seethe over with quotes segueing to things that have nothing to do with most religious people, except in bomb throwers heads, and bad individualized tangents that completely miss the point about accountability and rules, in some people's personal feeling of being threatened by religion.

The simple truth is we do not expect accountability from the public school down. We have many slacker terrible teachers, who are not subject to any form of real competition, and many seem to end up pregnant to the kids they are supposed to be instructing. No competition. No cares. No betterment.

I'm sorry, if our inept public schools can't even teach reading and writing, and since pragmatism seems to be missing from students <of all ages> it falls on the parents to do the teaching. My personal insight in living across the world is parents whom are religious have a better chance at passing down accountability and comprehension for ones actions, than a lot of seculars who really don't even follow the basic laws themselves.

[Arlos]

Ahhh, so you're back on the "Arlos is anti-faith" tack again, I see. Obviously you missed all those threads where I have stated quite clearly what my faith is, how devout I am, and even gave some specific details of what I've experienced, etc? Funny, I think everyone else has seen 'em, but here you are back on the completely fabricated and utterly spurious "Arlos is Anti-Faith" argument.

My original argument still holds as well. YOU may feel as an OPINION that religious people are more moral than non-religionists, but that's all it is, an opinion. I personally feel that religion has no basis whatsoever on how moral someone is, and I cited a few specific examples to back up my assertion. There's innumerable others out there. Hell, the BTK guy was in a senior position in his church. Does that make religion wrong? Of course not, but it DOES show that morality is no pre-requisite to be a follower of a religion.

-Arlos

[Trielelvan]

I think the point is:
a) it is impossible to count on just good parenting to keep kids from fucking and getting pregnant, regardless of their religious background
b) it is impossible to count on schools to provide good parenting to keep kids from fucking and getting pregnant, regardless of their religious background
c) it is impossible to count on kids/young adults to always make good decisions and not fuck up to keep from getting pregnant, regardless of their religious backgorund

The best possible way to ensure kids and young adults make the best possible decisions and not fuck up and get pregnant is to provide and make public and available as much information as possible in as many different forms and in as many different places so that access to the information is easy and readily accessible, whereas right now.
I mean, there's the internet, but that's not really "in their face" so to speak, with teaching and explaining it and all.
It doesn't matter who's religious and who isn't. The point is that it IS the religious nuts who are trying to keep the information from being spread, and that is a problem.

When I was around 24, I knew friends, coworkers, etc the same age and older even, that still thought, to my horror, that you could thwart getting pregnant by douching or taking a shower right after sex. I even knew a mom of one of the girls who tried to tell me that you can not get pregnant if your hymen has not been penetrated... as in you can't get pregnant from getting splashed... and she's supposed to be a nurse. Scary.

[Lyion]

My original argument still holds as well. YOU may feel as an OPINION that religious people are more moral than non-religionists, but that's all it is, an opinion. I personally feel that religion has no basis whatsoever on how moral someone is, and I cited a few specific examples to back up my assertion. There's innumerable others out there. Hell, the BTK guy was in a senior position in his church. Does that make religion wrong? Of course not, but it DOES show that morality is no pre-requisite to be a follower of a religion.

I'll take your bad hypocrite televangelists, and raise you Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong, those wonderful paragons and examples of Atheists and the 120 million people they killed.

You lose.

p.s. I agree with all your points, Triel. However, the fact our schools are inept doesn't help the problem.

[Tossica]

You don't want to go there Lyion. Far more people have been murdered in the name of "God" than pretty much any of the other reasons one might kill combined.


You lose.

[Martrae]

I agree somewhat with Lyion but I wouldn't say 'religious' people are better parents. I would use the word 'spiritual' instead.

[Tossica]

I agree somewhat with Lyion but I wouldn't say 'religious' people are better parents. I would use the word 'spiritual' instead.

You could use the word "simple" but you'd still only be half right.

I'll agree that if one actually follows what is taught in most positive faiths, you will attempt to live a positive life and pass that on to your kids BUT I don't agree that because one has faith, one has a strong moral core. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. The notion that a person needs to feel forgiven for their sins shows that they are guilty, they indeed have something to be sorry for and are most likely making bad decisions that could very well affect ME!

"STAY BACK YOU FILTHY GOD LOVER!"

[Lyion]

We are coming for you

[Harrison]

The ignorance in this thread is as scary as I thought it would be once the religion card was thrown.

[Martrae]

I agree somewhat with Lyion but I wouldn't say 'religious' people are better parents. I would use the word 'spiritual' instead.

You could use the word "simple" but you'd still only be half right.

I'll agree that if one actually follows what is taught in most positive faiths, you will attempt to live a positive life and pass that on to your kids BUT I don't agree that because one has faith, one has a strong moral core. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. The notion that a person needs to feel forgiven for their sins shows that they are guilty, they indeed have something to be sorry for and are most likely making bad decisions that could very well affect ME!

"STAY BACK YOU FILTHY GOD LOVER!"

You are mixing up spirituality with faith and/or religion.

[Tossica]

No, I'm not.

[Harrison]

For a hippie, you're not very accepting.

[araby]

Imagine if it were implanted in our brains to ask the other person the question, "are you trying have a baby right now?"

once both people answer, they can do it.

[Harrison]

Trying to have a baby or not, if you have sex, expect the possibility.

Killing is not an answer and the option is taken too lightly.

[araby]

I am pro-life. however I will never judge someone. It has nothing to do with me.

[Spazz]

Harriwin when you grow up do you inted to adopt children ?

[Harrison]

That question is irrelevant to this subject and is a poor attempt at diverting attention from the problem.

I intend on having children of my own. That answer has nothing to do with this, at all.