School shooting

[Lyion]

On the flip side, if you get rid of all the guns, you have even less of a problem, since accidental gun deaths will go away, and more criminals won't have them, because they won't walk into Kmart and buy a pack of gum, and a shotgun.

I went to college in Pomona near downtown and worked near Watts in LA in a very tough area. I never needed a gun there. I worked in Dallas and Charlotte. I never needed a gun either place. I've been to Cleveland tons of times. I have never needed a gun.. I doubt any person on this board has ever needed a gun for self defense.

Fortunately, we don't have sociopaths dual wielding 9 mms walking into areas and opening fire very often. I'll take the one in a million chance of that, versus one of my kids finding my gun and hurting himself, which even with good safety is very real.

It'll be nice when we get out of the wild west age and can get rid of the idiotic second amendment, which serves no purpose, but seems intent on arming our entire public for some vast threat of evil criminals.

The criminal angle is somewhat stupid, also. Guns are an offensive weapon, not defensive. I'm sure the idea of some kid getting shot for stealing a six pack of beer seems fair to you, but forgive me if I prefer we not take a Dredd style approach to life.

Finally, I find it comical, that a pro drug user who is often high and probably sees equally amount of high and unbalanced people prefers that all of them carry guns in case of a crime. That just boggles the mind.

[Griever]

It'll be nice when we get out of the wild west age and can get rid of the idiotic second amendment, which serves no purpose, but seems intent on arming our entire public for some vast threat of evil criminals.

I do not believe the reason you stated is the true purpose of the second amendment. Many people fight to keep it in place because it is the only power given to the citizen that the government can actually fear. Take that away and you have a government that has full control, and can do what it wishes to the public without any fear of retaliation. The second amendment prevents the government from confiscating all the weapons in the country. Please tell me why our founding fathers found it important enough that only free speach was put before it?

It is a balance I feel must be maintained and I for one would never vote for someone opposed to the second admendment.

[Lyion]

Our founding fathers lived in a time where 90% of our country lived in the wild, and the probability of foreign invaders was real and potent. They felt guns were needed. They also felt slavery was fine.

There is zero chance of an armed revolution in this country, so that is not a valid analogy. Our military is sworn to uphold the constitution and the rule of law here, which helps protect our way of life. Our military won't fear a bunch of people with glocks, either. Should people be allowed to have any weapons they choose in case some of them feel the need to overthrow the government?

Most other democratic countries have gun control laws, and no problems with keeping democracy alive, so I don't subscribe to the theory that we need an armed citizenry to keep the elected officials inline.

The only reason for handguns is to kill people. I'd love it if we had no guns on our streets, period. It works for the UK. It can work for us.

[Zanchief]

On the flip side, if you get rid of all the guns, you have even less of a problem, since accidental gun deaths will go away, and more criminals won't have them, because they won't walk into Kmart and buy a pack of gum, and a shotgun.

I went to college in Pomona near downtown and worked near Watts in LA in a very tough area. I never needed a gun there. I worked in Dallas and Charlotte. I never needed a gun either place. I've been to Cleveland tons of times. I have never needed a gun.. I doubt any person on this board has ever needed a gun for self defense.

Fortunately, we don't have sociopaths dual wielding 9 mms walking into areas and opening fire very often. I'll take the one in a million chance of that, versus one of my kids finding my gun and hurting himself, which even with good safety is very real.

It'll be nice when we get out of the wild west age and can get rid of the idiotic second amendment, which serves no purpose, but seems intent on arming our entire public for some vast threat of evil criminals.

The criminal angle is somewhat stupid, also. Guns are an offensive weapon, not defensive. I'm sure the idea of some kid getting shot for stealing a six pack of beer seems fair to you, but forgive me if I prefer we not take a Dredd style approach to life.

Finally, I find it comical, that a pro drug user who is often high and probably sees equally amount of high and unbalanced people prefers that all of them carry guns in case of a crime. That just boggles the mind.

Well I'll be damned, I agree almost completely.

IMO it isn't just about the availability of guns in the US, unfortunately there is something to be said for the way people are raised with them, and the relationship they have with them that seems to be conducive to these kind of things. It's definitely not the norm, and I don't know if it's entirely fair to politicize the crap out of these tragedies, but these things do seem to happen a lot in the US for whatever reason.

Question for spazz, what's wrong with non-lethal weapons? I never really understand why that wasn't a more viable means of self-defense. Especially when you consider the reluctance someone might have to killing another person, non-lethal weapons might even be a more effective way of defending yourself.

[kaharthemad]

I didnt say give high school students a gun I said allow teachers to carry. Allow anyone over the age of 21 who passes the req to carry.

I have my permit to carry, however because of school restrictions I cannot carry on school grounds. now lets look at it this way, if I had the right as a faculty member to carry. I am trained to use the weapon and test scores on the range prove it. Would you feel safer if I had a firearm and could use it to defend your little liberal children if some dumbass decided to play a RL version of quake in the school?

Of course not. You would be sitting there believing that it could be solved peaceably. If it comes between the lives of 20-32 children and the life of some nutjob shooting at those 20-32 kids believe me when i say I will shoot to kill and I dont believe I will miss.

[kaharthemad]

On the flip side, if you get rid of all the guns, you have even less of a problem, since accidental gun deaths will go away, and more criminals won't have them, because they won't walk into Kmart and buy a pack of gum, and a shotgun.

I went to college in Pomona near downtown and worked near Watts in LA in a very tough area. I never needed a gun there. I worked in Dallas and Charlotte. I never needed a gun either place. I've been to Cleveland tons of times. I have never needed a gun.. I doubt any person on this board has ever needed a gun for self defense.

Fortunately, we don't have sociopaths dual wielding 9 mms walking into areas and opening fire very often. I'll take the one in a million chance of that, versus one of my kids finding my gun and hurting himself, which even with good safety is very real.

It'll be nice when we get out of the wild west age and can get rid of the idiotic second amendment, which serves no purpose, but seems intent on arming our entire public for some vast threat of evil criminals.

The criminal angle is somewhat stupid, also. Guns are an offensive weapon, not defensive. I'm sure the idea of some kid getting shot for stealing a six pack of beer seems fair to you, but forgive me if I prefer we not take a Dredd style approach to life.

Finally, I find it comical, that a pro drug user who is often high and probably sees equally amount of high and unbalanced people prefers that all of them carry guns in case of a crime. That just boggles the mind.

spoken like a true liberal.

[Diekan]

Lyion finally realize just how clueless the insipid right is?

[Lyion]

Actually, my positions have been unchanged for quite some time. I've been against the second amendment for a long time, as I am against the death penalty.

I have yet to see any valid arguments for why people should have handguns, outside of Self Defense, which is foolish. Again, a gun is an offensive weapon. Any parent with a gun is more likely to allow his child to shoot themself, than to actually need it for any crime prevention. It makes one wonder the true reasoning behind those who want to carry, since it flies in the face of reason in regards to protection.

[Griever]

Keep in mind that even though my stance is pro-second amendment, I have never shot, let alone held a real gun before nor do I wish to.

[Gypsiyee]

On the flip side, if you get rid of all the guns, you have even less of a problem, since accidental gun deaths will go away, and more criminals won't have them, because they won't walk into Kmart and buy a pack of gum, and a shotgun.

I went to college in Pomona near downtown and worked near Watts in LA in a very tough area. I never needed a gun there. I worked in Dallas and Charlotte. I never needed a gun either place. I've been to Cleveland tons of times. I have never needed a gun.. I doubt any person on this board has ever needed a gun for self defense.

Fortunately, we don't have sociopaths dual wielding 9 mms walking into areas and opening fire very often. I'll take the one in a million chance of that, versus one of my kids finding my gun and hurting himself, which even with good safety is very real.

It'll be nice when we get out of the wild west age and can get rid of the idiotic second amendment, which serves no purpose, but seems intent on arming our entire public for some vast threat of evil criminals.

The criminal angle is somewhat stupid, also. Guns are an offensive weapon, not defensive. I'm sure the idea of some kid getting shot for stealing a six pack of beer seems fair to you, but forgive me if I prefer we not take a Dredd style approach to life.

Finally, I find it comical, that a pro drug user who is often high and probably sees equally amount of high and unbalanced people prefers that all of them carry guns in case of a crime. That just boggles the mind.

spoken like a true liberal.

Maybe I'm crazy so correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought Lyion was quite a bit conservative?

[10sun]

In my high school, they gave us loaded shotguns in gym class to go skeet shooting. I'd have to say that you are correct, Americans are raised with guns.

Personally, I know how to use a lot of different firearms having grown up in a rural part of the US. I loathe using anything beyond my paintball gun though =\

-Adam

[Lueyen]

Actually, my positions have been unchanged for quite some time. I've been against the second amendment for a long time, as I am against the death penalty.

Ahh those pesky little parts of the Bill of Rights, the ACLU isn't fond of that one either. Thankfully the founding fathers set it up in such a way that we don't get to pick and choose which of those rights we deem worth having and which ones are dated and there fore not applicable.

Our founding fathers lived in a time where 90% of our country lived in the wild, and the probability of foreign invaders was real and potent. They felt guns were needed. They also felt slavery was fine.

Notice how the right to own slaves is not setup in the Bill of Rights.

[Blackdiam]

he could have killed just as many people with just a knife easily

[Zanchief]

Ahh those pesky little parts of the Bill of Rights, the ACLU isn't fond of that one either. Thankfully the founding fathers set it up in such a way that we don't get to pick and choose which of those rights we deem worth having and which ones are dated and there fore not applicable.

I never understood that argument. Just because it's in the constitution doesn't mean it's the word of God.

[Snero]

I didnt say give high school students a gun I said allow teachers to carry. Allow anyone over the age of 21 who passes the req to carry.

I have my permit to carry, however because of school restrictions I cannot carry on school grounds. now lets look at it this way, if I had the right as a faculty member to carry. I am trained to use the weapon and test scores on the range prove it. Would you feel safer if I had a firearm and could use it to defend your little liberal children if some dumbass decided to play a RL version of quake in the school?

Of course not. You would be sitting there believing that it could be solved peaceably. If it comes between the lives of 20-32 children and the life of some nutjob shooting at those 20-32 kids believe me when i say I will shoot to kill and I dont believe I will miss.

the thing is, you don't know who is going to go crazy. How often do you hear neighbors of mass murderers interviewed saying "he seemed like such a nice young man". If I was a parent, would I trust some It guy to carry a weapon around my kids? hell no, my choice would be to keep all weapons as far away from my kids as possible. Thats even ignoring the chance that a kid gets his hands on the weapon. If security is a big concern, hire a security guard, but no way I would rely on the pasty IT guy with some sort of a rambo complex to protect anybody

[Phlegm]

Gunman identified as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old English major from South Korea
Cho called a loner by university official
Reasonable to assume Cho was shooter in both dorm and classroom, police say

[Harrison]

Pussyboy is back from hiatus and he's bleeding all over the boards again.

P.S. Removing firearms from the general populace leaves it in the hands of criminals and the government. No. Fucking. Thanks.

[Scatillac]

Our founding fathers lived in a time where 90% of our country lived in the wild, and the probability of foreign invaders was real and potent. They felt guns were needed. They also felt slavery was fine.

There is zero chance of an armed revolution in this country, so that is not a valid analogy. Our military is sworn to uphold the constitution and the rule of law here, which helps protect our way of life. Our military won't fear a bunch of people with glocks, either. Should people be allowed to have any weapons they choose in case some of them feel the need to overthrow the government?

Most other democratic countries have gun control laws, and no problems with keeping democracy alive, so I don't subscribe to the theory that we need an armed citizenry to keep the elected officials inline.

The only reason for handguns is to kill people. I'd love it if we had no guns on our streets, period. It works for the UK. It can work for us.

It doesnt work for the UK, now the only people with guns are criminals. Do a little research, they are worse off now than before, criminals can rob or kill any normal citizen without fear of them having a gun.

[Lyion]

Ahh those pesky little parts of the Bill of Rights, the ACLU isn't fond of that one either. Thankfully the founding fathers set it up in such a way that we don't get to pick and choose which of those rights we deem worth having and which ones are dated and there fore not applicable.

Very true, but our rights are still applicable to the democratic legislative process. This is not correlating to the simple truth that the Bill of Rights was drafted during a very different era and the second amendments meaning is a tad different from whether Bubba Smith can own an AK-47 legally.

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

It's tough to think this has any real bearing on ones selection of firearms at Mike's Gun shop, or whether our citizenry needs or should be allowed to carry around semi automatic weapons.

Notice how the right to own slaves is not setup in the Bill of Rights.

Thanks to that nice 13th Amendment, drafted and resolved after the Bill of Rights. It's nice how we can make changes to antiquated and wrong beliefs or interpretations of the law.

Amazingly, with the repeal of the second amendment, the security of the free state won't change one iota.

[Lueyen]

Ahh those pesky little parts of the Bill of Rights, the ACLU isn't fond of that one either. Thankfully the founding fathers set it up in such a way that we don't get to pick and choose which of those rights we deem worth having and which ones are dated and there fore not applicable.

I never understood that argument. Just because it's in the constitution doesn't mean it's the word of God.

No it doesn't but it is the law of the land, and there are provisions for making changes to it setup in such a way that changes and additions are not easily accomplished to prevent arbitrary changes subject to the whims of current societal or political climate.

There was a lot of argument about including a bill of rights, but the opposition was not concerned for the most part with the content, but with the scope. It was not feared that a Bill of Rights would go to far in what it guaranteed, but that it would appear an all encompassing list which was not the intent, in other words there are rights beyond it that are also guaranteed even if not explicitly stated. One thing is for certain there was little to no argument over the contents of the Bill of Rights going to far in it's provisions or concerns that the rights would eventually become out of date, unnecessary or obtrusive.

[KaiineTN]

I've never really understood the gun culture of the US. Maybe it's just because I wasn't really raised around any, and didn't really get exposed to them until I was more or less an adult. My uncles are into hunting and such, but I've never tried. I don't want to kill anything. I'll admit, shooting a bb gun at a coffee can and making a contest out of it to see who has the best aim for $5 was some good stupid fun, but beyond that, I don't like guns. Except Super Soakers. Everyone needs a Super Soaker.

When I was in the Army and they had us dismantle M16's, and I was much more fascinated by the engineering than anything else. Learning how it works was more fun than firing it. Guns scare me, at least, their purpose does.

Earlier in the thread there was talk of teachers with guns to defend kids in these situations, but I wonder how long it would take until we see a teacher go psycho on his/her own classroom? I feel almost certain it would happen eventually.

[Lueyen]

Earlier in the thread there was talk of teachers with guns to defend kids in these situations, but I wonder how long it would take until we see a teacher go psycho on his/her own classroom? I feel almost certain it would happen eventually.

It might happen eventually but not allowing teachers to carry firearms will not prevent it.

[Diekan]

I've never really understood the gun culture of the US. Maybe it's just because I wasn't really raised around any, and didn't really get exposed to them until I was more or less an adult. My uncles are into hunting and such, but I've never tried. I don't want to kill anything. I'll admit, shooting a bb gun at a coffee can and making a contest out of it to see who has the best aim for $5 was some good stupid fun, but beyond that, I don't like guns. Except Super Soakers. Everyone needs a Super Soaker.

When I was in the Army and they had us dismantle M16's, and I was much more fascinated by the engineering than anything else. Learning how it works was more fun than firing it. Guns scare me, at least, their purpose does.

Earlier in the thread there was talk of teachers with guns to defend kids in these situations, but I wonder how long it would take until we see a teacher go psycho on his/her own classroom? I feel almost certain it would happen eventually.

Weren't you in the Army for like 3 hours?

[Zanchief]

It might happen eventually but not allowing teachers to carry firearms will not prevent it.

Yes it will actually. Them not having weapons with them at all times, getting all trigger happy, will prevent them from shooting people.

[ClakarEQ]

It doesnt work for the UK, now the only people with guns are criminals. Do a little research, they are worse off now than before, criminals can rob or kill any normal citizen without fear of them having a gun.

It won't change how things work here regardless, criminals don't fear guns today and even if we completly laxed the gun control laws to allow a 5 year old to carry, won't change crime.

More guns will not change a thing, the "people" don't want more guns, we have never tried less guns, I see no reason why we shouldn't pursue this option.

IMHO if the students "cared" more, this could have been stopped. If this guy had walked into an ROTC class, do you think they would have just "watched and listend"? I'd bet not and if they did I'd be ashamed of them. Had 5-10 students rushed this guy, I bet no more than a handfull would have been killed. This reminds me of the PA plane during 9/11.

When does a person come to the realization that kill or be killed is the only option?

For me, I feel in my gut that even though my life would have been lost, I truely feel I would have run at this guy with all my power in even a weak attempt to stop him. If 5 people had this mind set, this guy would have been taken down.

I realize fear is a terrible thing and frankly fear is why so many died. Had fear not overcome these kids and in this situation, I believe the death toll could have been less.

Of course this is easy for one to say not having been in the position.

BTW I agree with Lyion pretty much 100% on this issue and his thoughts.