School shooting

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Postby Zanchief » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:12 am

Lueyen wrote:Oh really? If you look at the investigations into these mass public shootings you find that the perpetrators nearly always plan them out. It's not spur of the moment snapping, but conscious methodical planning, in some cases the killers have done "practice runs" ect. No they aren't Snidley whiplash in a laughing craze, they tend to be cold and calculated. Take the current case for example.


I'm not just talking about these school shootings, but lets use them as an example. They're always carried out by people who from outward appearances, always seem to be pretty normal. These are the same normal people who basically have an arsenal at their disposal that would make John Matrix weep. Any time they get that bad thought creeping in their head they can just walk down the street and buy themselves a tank.

But maybe you're right Lueyen, over saturating the public with firearms has worked so far. The US firearm deaths per capita per year are so low I give full credit to the job the "guns for all will scare the evil doers" theory.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:21 am

Griever wrote:
lyion wrote:Guns are not a defensive weapon. They are made to kill, not to protect. You are wrongly equating guns with helping you against a perceived threat. The simple truth is someone like you with a gun is the threat.


The police department and armed security guard companies are perfect examples of how this statement is inaccurate. They use their guns in defense only, to protect themselves or citizens.


Many are now wisely moving away from drawing guns and using tasers instead.

Much of the civilized world does not need or use guns, including their law enforcement people. Why do we need them, outside of it feels good to have a loaded killing weapon, unless one lives in an area that is less safe than Beirut?
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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:13 am

I'm not just talking about these school shootings, but lets use them as an example. They're always carried out by people who from outward appearances, always seem to be pretty normal.


This guy was anything but normal. Everyone thought he was crazy. Some students said they were just waiting for the guy to snap and when they had to review his plays in class, everyone chose their words wisely because they didn't want him to bug out.

Here are his plays btw, they are 10 and 11 pages long.

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shoot ... 4109990001
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Postby ClakarEQ » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:26 am

There is no logical reason to permit hand-guns in this country. I'm not suggesting all guns be taken from the people but there is no reason to permit hand guns.

Guns by thier nature are not defense. You have a gun for one reason, to inflict. You do not defend with a gun, you attempt to cause harm.

Vests are "defense", guns are offense. Guns provide "threat deterance" however only when visible.

Spazz how many times have you drawn your weapon? How many times have you pointed it at someone? Have you ever stopped a crime? Out of the few folks I know that have a concealed weapons permit, niether ONE has EVER used it for it's intended purpose, "protection".

Both were subject to crime, their insecurities to this event caused a reaction, buy a gun, it will protect me. Yet this is not true. It installs mental protection but when push comes to shove, odds are you or my two buds will choke and not risk their lives to draw their gun.
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Postby Gaazy » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:33 am

Banning handguns from being carried and concealed might be a good idea, but I dont think they should be banned altogether. Going to the range and shooting for the fun of it is a blast.
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:49 am

Gaazy wrote:Banning handguns from being carried and concealed might be a good idea, but I dont think they should be banned altogether. Going to the range and shooting for the fun of it is a blast.


They should rent the guns. People should not be allowed to own guns. They can't be trusted. Too many crazies.
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:54 am

Crazies can do damage without guns. That is bad enough...the problem with guns is how deadly they are. It is like the power of a switch-from alive, to dead, faster than a person can think. Humans can not be trusted with a weapon like that. Guns are like inanimate terrorists. We know they are out there and we never know when one will take our life. The kicker is that pretty much anyone can own one.
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Postby Gaazy » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:45 am

Hate to break this to you, but if a crazy is deadset to kill someone, they are going to do it one way or another. Want to ban knives too? Lead pipes?

If he couldnt buy the guns at the store, the chink would have gone into the alley behind the gun shop and bought them just as easy, without the paperwork.
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Postby Evermore » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:05 am

Guns are not the problem. He could have just as easily gone to a local supermarket and built a very powerful explosive from everyday items, and killed alot more people. I mean a good charge of plastique takes only 2 ingredients to make. Everyone's 1st instinct is to ban guns. Hell ban away. You will just make them more expensive. why these people do this shit needs to be resolved.
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Postby Yamori » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:10 am

Why people seem to think that someone bent on robbing, murdering, or slaying numerous people would conscientiously follow gun laws and go "Oh. Guns are illegal now. I guess I won't go guy one from Vinnie the Rat in the back alleys since that would be breaking the law!!" baffles me.
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Postby Spazz » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:19 am

Why people seem to think that someone bent on robbing, murdering, or slaying numerous people would conscientiously follow gun laws and go "Oh. Guns are illegal now. I guess I won't go guy one from Vinnie the Rat in the back alleys since that would be breaking the law!!" baffles me.


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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:22 am

Yeah if guns were illegal, someone who wants to murder alot of people would just build a bomb.
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Postby Spazz » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:27 am

Or buy a gun anyway. A criminal by definition is someone who does not give a fuck about the law.
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Postby ClakarEQ » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:43 am

You guys are making a point to prove banning hand-guns is the right thing to do.

You are correct regarding criminals will be the only ones with hand-guns. If this had been in place 6 months ago, this fellow wouldn't have been killing with a hand gun now would he?

Not only that, ANYONE with a hand gun would be an auto-felon. So if you're in possession of a hand-gun you a criminal by default.

Being force to blackmarkets does make it more difficult to obtain a gun, there is more risk, more cost, etc.

Where do you folks think criminals get guns from, it isn't the gun shops. It is fool-hearty home owners and such thinking they are protecting something from someone only to have their gun stolen from under their nose.

The point I think folks are trying to make here is criminals will be criminals and the removal of hand guns won't stop "crime", I agree 100%.

However removal of hand guns would, following logic, say that your common joe wouldn't have access to a hand gun.

I also have yet to see any stats to imply that a public citizen owning a hand gun has actually "stopped" or reduced crime. That said I have not seen stats to say that crime would increase or decrease if hand-guns were to be banned.

I do know that out of all the options available, we have yet to try banning, but we have tried lots of other things to futility.

In the end it won't matter. We will lose the right to have hand-guns, this is inevitable regardless of the bill of rights and the founding fathers. We will be forced to comply with "global standards" one of which is harder gun control laws. Don't be so foolish to think this won't take place, it is only a matter of time.

I'd go so far to say that if 3-5 more killings like this take place over the next 5-15 years, you will kiss your hand guns goodbye :) or place them under glass to only be viewed.
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Postby Zanchief » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:56 am

Yamori wrote:Why people seem to think that someone bent on robbing, murdering, or slaying numerous people would conscientiously follow gun laws and go "Oh. Guns are illegal now. I guess I won't go guy one from Vinnie the Rat in the back alleys since that would be breaking the law!!" baffles me.


Because not all gun crimes are premeditated like this. I would think many of them are committed by normal people with legal guns, people who likely wouldn't delve into the underground world or firearm trafficking.

People aren't all part of two categories, criminals and victims.
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Postby Gaazy » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:06 am

Ban guns and see the black market/organized crime go up too. Same deal as with the Prohibition and alcohol. If something is illegal, more incentive for them to jack the price up and sell them illegally.
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:07 am

Hey, it's not like this is the incident that was the straw that broke the camels back. trust me, I believe in banning guns ANYWAY.

I also realize that killers are killers anyway and that there are several ways to kill a large group of people.

don't forget that the killer himself-is making a statement-in the fact that he legally owned both guns and scratched the serial numbers off of them. he either thought he'd get away with it at one point-if he didn't have the nerve in the end to take his own life, or was trying to make a point. Like I said before, we have two issues here. One, of crazy angry people who don't get help. The second, the fact that they can own guns anytime.

Many people will not care what this kids message was. The fact that he took the lives of thirty people will discount his martyrdom. In his mind, he has something to say. He is willing to die for what he had to say. Yet, he doesn't get taken seriously once he's decided to take thirty people down with him.

part of his message was how ridiculously easy it is for a crazy person with anger to buy a gun. I know he killed thirty people with the message. doesn't mean he wasn't right.

so it becomes a gun issue now, right? NO-it was a gun issue the entire time! People have been asking and asking to have guns banned for years and the only people crying "PLEASE LET US KEEP OUR GUNS" are the ones that really only want the "right" and are not considering WHY human beings should not be allowed to own them. We have abused the right! Just as if a parent were to take away something mistreated by their child, we (imagine that) have to punish ourselves and take them away. We no longer reserve the right to own guns. That is CLEAR.

I do not find it simple to fathom how these things-the ones that can be PREVENTED are still happening. How long will we continue to let these sick people who need help go unnoticed? He placed a "?" in the place where he was supposed to write his name (in school.) How long are we going to keep selling guns to people? They are two issues. They do not change. They are separate. They can be connected. One does not support the other. One makes the other worse.
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:12 am

In *some* countries it is considered rude to lock your doors!!! come on people!

go find that crazy person in your life and hug them instead of mumbling "crazy fuck" under your breath. if everyone did that every day-HONESTLY-there would be less shootings. with the ban of guns of course.

"but Araby! we have the RIGHT to keep our guns!"

do you really? why? because YOU didn't shoot someone today? Tell me one positive thing about the fact that you own a gun. Bring it.
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Postby Tuggan » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:13 am

the killer killed 32 people to make a statement about gun control?
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:17 am

Tuggan wrote:the killer killed 32 people to make a statement about gun control?


no, he scratched the serial numbers off of the guns to make a statement about gun control. he legally owned both guns. why scratch the serial numbers off? again-did he think he wouldn't get caught, just in case he didn't have the nerve to kill himself? he did leave a note, so my guess is he intended to take his own life the entire time. He knew that along with his written explanation of his anger/depression/disgust with humans and his own life-he knew it would be reported that he legally owned both guns. It was reported BECAUSE he scratched off the serial numbers.
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Postby kinghooter00 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:28 am

did you read those plays he wrote? Wow, what a fucking weirdo....
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Postby Tuggan » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:28 am

Well considering they reported that he legally owned the guns way before I heard anything mentioned about scratched off serial numbers I would have to say thats a pretty moot point. It was reported because the media likes to turn this kind of shit into a frenzy and get everyone all excited and retarded.

The upside of all this, is that this will turn into the next hot issue for these scumbags running for president. Now I can get a better view as to those who actually support the right to bear arms.
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Postby Gaazy » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:30 am

Prevented? You keep telling yourself that. Do you have any idea how easy it is to buy a gun illegally? I can name off a half dozen people that collect guns or whatever that would sell me one on the spot. Like a dozen people have already said, if someone wants a gun, they are going to get a gun. Banning them isnt going to do shit, imo. All it will do is make fuckin people like you feel better, until a little while later that it happens again and you wonder "omgz what happened we banned those things! Peoplez arent supposed to break teh lawz!"

Ive read that between 1980 and 1993 alone, something like 67 million guns were made available for civilian use. What is the gov gonna do, go house to house and say "hi sir all you gunz are belong to me, turn them in plz"? Hell I doubt many people would even get rid of them, sorry to say.

Now, I completely agree with your point of never noticing the people that are fucked up in the skull and need help. Seems like there are always warning signs that people happen to think of after all the shit is said and done, indicating that their head is fucked, like writing fucked up, violent plays and stalking girls.
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Postby araby » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:31 am

Tuggan wrote:Well considering they reported that he legally owned the guns way before I heard anything mentioned about scratched off serial numbers I would have to say thats a pretty moot point. It was reported because the media likes to turn this kind of shit into a frenzy and get everyone all excited and retarded.

The upside of all this, is that this will turn into the next hot issue for these scumbags running for president. Now I can get a better view as to those who actually support the right to bear arms.


No, it was reported because they did not know 1-how many guns there were and 2-because they did not know who the gun belonged to until they ran the ballistics. They would report that ANYWAY.
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Postby Tuggan » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:33 am

They would report what anyway? That he owned both guns?

Yeah, thank you.. now go shut up and post more flakey shit in everything else where your gibberish belongs.
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