School shooting

[Tuggan]

actually stab wound victims have something like a 70% chance to die, where as a handgun wounds is 40% stabbing is alot messier, harder for a surgeon to deal with.

[araby]

Imagine a gun is pointed at you and the trigger is pulled. what are the odds you will survive that?

That is how dangerous a gun is.

[Snero]

it's a small sample size but, here is info from a study on penetrating cardiac damage


The overall survival rate was 19.3% (41 of 212) for the population studied, with survival rates of 9.7% (12 of 123) for gunshot wounds and 32.6% (29 of 89) for stab wounds

[Snero]

here is some more,

The mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 22% while that for stab wounds was 4%. Even among patients that survived, gunshot wounds were more serious — the mean cost of treatment for these patients was more than twice that for stab wounds.

[Tuggan]

lol badass motherfucker to stab someone in the heart.

[araby]

lol badass motherfucker to stab someone in the heart.

hehe...you still make me chuckle

[10sun]

Also, I firmly believe that anyone who has a handgun for "home defense" is an idiot. Shotguns are FAR superior for that purpose in every regard. 1) Handguns are inherently less accurate; a shotgun with an open choke you just have to be aiming near the person, a pistol has to be aimed precisely. 2) shotgun rounds of smaller pellets that miss arent' going to blow through even interior walls and risk harm to other family members or neighbors. Pistol rounds, especially high powered ones, go right through EXTERIOR walls without being even impeded overmuch, thus you risk missing your target and the bullet hitting a kid, neighbor, etc. as it blows through walls. 3) Shotguns have a much higher intimidation factor, just from the noise of the pump slide, and thus you increase the chance of the intruder just running away, and never having the conflict degenerate into a lethal one.

Most people carrying handguns for self defense will use either a hollowpoint or a jacketed hollowpoint which has low penetration, but much higher stopping power.

The thing you seem to have dismissed is the useage of these weapons. Most women will have a hard time using a shotgun properly due to the recoil. It will knock them on their ass and probably break a few ribs while they are at it. Handguns place women on equal footing with men.

As a third point in the argument as to why a shotgun is ineffective as a home defense weapon. You are completely wrong about handguns going through walls and shotguns not. The muzzle energy of a shotgun is MUCH higher than that of a pistol(typical velocity leaving a shotgun is ~1500 feet per second compared to ~1000 feet per second of your standard pistol).

So yeah.

[Snero]

i don't have any first hand info about guns, but i do know the penetrating power of something is not only proportional to the velocity of the ammo while leaving the muzzle

[Arlos]

Each pellet of shotgun ammunition has much smaller mass than a pistol round, thus it carries less energy. Less energy = more likely to be stopped by intervening material. If you use shotgun rounds that contain pistol-bullet sized pellets, sure, they'll go through walls just as readily as pistol bullets will. You are by no means required to do anything that silly though, given the available size ranges of pellets. A .357, for example, can be used to shoot and kill someone straight through a cinderblock wall.

As for recoil, having shot both myself, I found shotguns, with their greater mass, to be far less problematic about recoil than more powerful pistols. Sure, a .22 pistol won't kick much, but it's also not going to have a whole lot of stopping power, either. Assuming you're not using super-magnum shotgun loads or something equally silly, women, even small ones, should be able to use a smaller gauge shotgun without any problem. Indeed, I'd think it'd be even easier, as you get to use your whole arms to support a shotgun, whereas holding up a pistol is pure wrist strength.

-Arlos

[10sun]

Penetration is also based upon design of the ammo itself & the weight of the slug/shot itself.
Trying to be impartial with this comparison as there are a wide variety of different pistols / shotguns that you can use for home defense, I am simply using a baseline.

Jacketed Hollow Points are designed to mushroom upon impact. Your standard JHP .40 S&W fires a bullet .4 inches in diameter at 1200 feet per second with an overall weight of .3 ounces.

Your standard 12 gauge shotgun with 00 shot will have 8 or 9 balls roughly 1/3 of an inch in diameter leaving the gun at 1500 feet per second with an overall weight of .125 ounces per shot, they do not leave at the same time, which increases penetration and will rip through most homebuilding materials.

I'm not big on math, nor am I great with physics, but I've seen what happens when you fire each of these rounds. I'd be far more worried about a shotgun blowing a hole in a wall than a pistol.

[10sun]

Some penetration #s from American Handgunner March 2001
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 80696/pg_1

I may have chosen the less than ideal bullet for home defense thinking it was the average, but then again I did no research on that *shrug*

Average Penetration In Ballistic Gelatin
No Impediment Sheet Rock Barrier
.40 S&W 180 gr. JHP 14.2" 25.2"
.223 Rem. 55 gr. FMJ 14.3" 11.5"
12 gauge 00 buckshot 22.8" 23.2"
12 gauge 1 oz. slug 21.0" 23.4"

[Arlos]

I repeat: Who said to use 00 shot? A human is a very thin-skinned animal. At ranges typical inside the home, you can generate lethal damage from the smallest buckshot or larger birdshot (such as BB sized). Such rounds are far less likely to blow through a wall than a pistol round.

Also, since we're positing shotguns for women to use, you're more likely to have a 20 gauge than a 12 gauge, as 12 gauges are much larger and heavier.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

I didn't read the last page or so but I read someone said he owned the guns legally. Actually as I understand it he did not. According to what NBC said (so who can you believe), he had been placed under a suicide watch or some shit in a hospital and this in of itself puts you on the "can't buy a gun list". Yet he was able to purchase two of them.

The existing gun control laws are a joke. I could go to the next gun swap meet and easily bribe a guy for an extra $50.00 bucks to just sell me the gun and forget the paperwork. Hell I'm not even certain how well these gun swap meets are even monitored.

[Zanchief]

The existing gun control laws are a joke. I could go to the next gun swap meet and easily bribe a guy for an extra $50.00 bucks to just sell me the gun and forget the paperwork. Hell I'm not even certain how well these gun swap meets are even monitored.

People who "swap guns" don't give a shit about government paperwork.

[Evermore]

Also, I firmly believe that anyone who has a handgun for "home defense" is an idiot. Shotguns are FAR superior for that purpose in every regard. 1) Handguns are inherently less accurate; a shotgun with an open choke you just have to be aiming near the person, a pistol has to be aimed precisely. 2) shotgun rounds of smaller pellets that miss arent' going to blow through even interior walls and risk harm to other family members or neighbors. Pistol rounds, especially high powered ones, go right through EXTERIOR walls without being even impeded overmuch, thus you risk missing your target and the bullet hitting a kid, neighbor, etc. as it blows through walls. 3) Shotguns have a much higher intimidation factor, just from the noise of the pump slide, and thus you increase the chance of the intruder just running away, and never having the conflict degenerate into a lethal one.

Most people carrying handguns for self defense will use either a hollowpoint or a jacketed hollowpoint which has low penetration, but much higher stopping power.

The thing you seem to have dismissed is the useage of these weapons. Most women will have a hard time using a shotgun properly due to the recoil. It will knock them on their ass and probably break a few ribs while they are at it. Handguns place women on equal footing with men.

As a third point in the argument as to why a shotgun is ineffective as a home defense weapon. You are completely wrong about handguns going through walls and shotguns not. The muzzle energy of a shotgun is MUCH higher than that of a pistol(typical velocity leaving a shotgun is ~1500 feet per second compared to ~1000 feet per second of your standard pistol).

So yeah.

Mr 10sun this is why i got my wife a .410. she handles it easily and the recoil is minimal. At 15 to 25ft with a load of shot she isnt going to miss and it will eat some flesh. She also has my mossberg 590 available to her as well as my p14.45


EDIT:

oh and i wouldnt want to have to clean the mess after shooting someone with 00

[Eziekial]

I repeat: Who said to use 00 shot? A human is a very thin-skinned animal. At ranges typical inside the home, you can generate lethal damage from the smallest buckshot or larger birdshot (such as BB sized). Such rounds are far less likely to blow through a wall than a pistol round.

Also, since we're positing shotguns for women to use, you're more likely to have a 20 gauge than a 12 gauge, as 12 gauges are much larger and heavier.

-Arlos

Law enforcement and US Military use 00 buckshot in their 12 gauges and it's what I have in mine. Also, 9mm is the most common handgun and I think the best home defense weapon which is why I have one also. FYI I use 115 gr JHP for ammo which I am confident, with my marksmanship, is sufficient.

[Diekan]

Personally, I favor a good ole .38 revolver for the wife/girlfriend... why?

Revolvers don't jam. Revolvers aren't long and bulky. Nothing wrong with a shotgun for the little Mrs... they do work, but I like the idea of her being able to simply reach over into the nightstand drawer and pulling it out. I like the revolver aspect because in the case of a misfire all she has to do is pull the trigger again and again till it fires - not sit there and fuck with the slide trying to unchamber a round while the intruder is charging toward the bedroom.

[araby]

I owned an unregistered saturday night special when I was married but that pretty much freaked me out and I gave it back to my father.

[Lyion]

I suspect if any of your previous girls had a .38, we wouldn't be hearing your in depth opinions on guns and chicklets.

[Diekan]

They were more interested in the howitzer in my pants... that kept 'em busy most of the time

[Martrae]

Personally, I favor a good ole .38 revolver for the wife/girlfriend... why?

One of my ex's gave me one of these for a while.

[Tuggan]

I would use a shotgun without a doubt for a home defense situation. There will only be 1 version of the story being told to the police, and it's going to be mine. 12 gauge with 00 pretty much guarantees that in 1 shot.

although I do love my .45

[Spazz]

Id go with the .45 cuz Im not to handy with the shotgun.

[Lueyen]

oh and i wouldnt want to have to clean the mess after shooting someone with 00

I was thinking the same about shot guns in general as a home defense weapon... the police or coroner isn't going to clean up the mess it's going to make. On the plus side you most likely won't have to worry about having to shoot someone more then once to stop them.

Arlos I don't think you are quite correct on your recoil comparisons between the two. Shotguns are in general more powerful and you take more direct recoil that is transfered back into your shoulder, vs a pistol where you aren't as actively pitting yourself against the recoil. I've never seen or heard of anyone hurting their wrists with a pistol, generally at worst the weapon raises above their head, but I've certainly seen people knocked on their kiester by shot guns. Of course if the weapon is more powerful recoil wise then you can handle either has the propensity to come completely out of your hands.

[Arlos]

Shotguns also have a lot more mass to absorb the recoil with. I'm not coming up with this information from nowhere too, I used to go shooting with friends my first go-around in college. I had a 12-gauge that my dad used to use to go duck hunting with, 1 friend had a real baretta 9mm, 1 friend had a baretta knock-off 9mm, and one had a .45. Where I went to school was fairly rural, and a lot of the farmers didn't care if you went onto their land and did some target shooting, as long as you were careful about what was potentially downrange. Besides that, I've shot several other pistols at firing ranges, up to and including a .44 magnum revolver.

I can assure you, that unless you're loading the shotgun with ultra-high power loads, the kick wasn't that bad, and with an open choke, you could do fairly well at hitting a human-sized silhoutte at in-home type ranges with most of the shot load even firing it from your hip, where the recoil was REALLY not noticeable, as you could just let the shotgun slide back some, but had both entire arms to absorb the motion. Sure, no accuracy at anything approaching even medium ranges, but how many people here have 40' long hallways? As has been said here more than once, great accuracy at short range with a shotgun is not a necessity; point it in their general direction and you're going to be making a mess, unlike a pistol where you stand a very real chance of missing vital parts unless you aim really carefully.

So, in any case, given the pistol recoil that I remember, especially that .45 (and the .44 I shot in the range, of course), and the recoil of my large gauge shotgun, I can only imagine a 20 gauge would be insanely easy to handle, much less a 410 like Evermore is talking about.

-Arlos