Border Security and Immigration Reform Act of 2007

[Eziekial]

greener. Maybe that's the answer. We could annex Mexico.

[Gypsiyee]

What's the need for all the name calling and insults? Telling me to pull my head out of my ass when I was simply explaining that it's not as easy as you seem to think it is wasn't really necessary - and for the record, I'm not a liberal - I think I've said that a thousand times

The problem that I see here is you guys keep referencing the subject only as it refers to mexicans - mexicans are DEFINITELY not the only illegal immigrants, and how do YOU in particular know who's illegal and who isn't? Chances are fairly often you're passing judgment on people that aren't even mexican, they're puerto rican born natural born AMERICAN citizens, but because you saw on the news that there are illegal you're assuming that any every spanish speaking person who shops at walmart is an illegal immigrant.

The logic is just horribly short sighted, judgmental, and uneducated.

[kinghooter00]

i lOVE MEXICAN PEOPLE.....

I LOVE MEXICAN PEOPLE........

SHOW ME THE MONEEEEEEYYYY!!!!

[Evermore]

i lOVE MEXICAN PEOPLE.....

I LOVE MEXICAN PEOPLE........

SHOW ME THE MONEEEEEEYYYY!!!!

shouldnt you be out picking fruit or some shit?

[Lyion]

You seem to never have an issue when Toss or another liberal insults based on board fun, but sure get upset when someone who isn't a librimjob does the same, Gyp. Hypocrisy is not fitting. We don't need another Chief Wahoo on the board.

Obviously Kahar was being tongue in cheek. Don't fault him for his dyslexia, either.

This bill is silly on all sides. It wastes money, accomplishes little and invites millions of new illegals in.

I like the idea of annexing Mexico. Most of their population works here anyways, and I love their beaches and food.

[Gypsiyee]

it has nothing to do with the liberal thing - can I reiterate I'm not a liberal? Insults in a civil discussion to get your point across vs. insults in random threads are completely different

[runamonk]

last I checked dumbass, they are ILLEGALLY here. Thats why I hate them. When they are legally here. I have no problems with anyone.

But until they are here legally and without amnesty they need to rounded up and thrown over a very tall wall.

Setup work Visa make it it available to anyone without a criminal background. Also make sure they get a background check and fine. work till your hearts content. Come here illegally and frankly I have a problem with that.

The problem is you show now distinction between here legally and illegally. You're a racist fuck.

In all seriousness I don't think there is a good answer to this issue. We can't build a fence around everything to keep out the unsavories without locking in the people here who want to get out and travel -- which is another huge issue.

Someone here jokingly mentioned that if immigrants want to come here and become citizens they should be forced to serve a tour in our armed forces rather than have to go through the huge pain the ass of getting a visa and what not. I don't know if this is the right answer or not but it's certainly an interesting one.

Getting a work visa here is damn hard, I have a friend over in england right now who wants to live here but she's having a hard time finding a company to sponsor her. It's hard for her and she doesn't even have a language barrier to cross, what is a poor guy from mexico supposed to do when he can barely speak the language, may or may not have proper schooling supposed to do? They do what they have to do to survive and they come here to find back breaking jobs that pay shit for salary and they run into bigoted assholes who are so ignorant of what's going on around them all they can think to do is criticize them for being here and stealing jobs from them.

When was the last time you did landscaping? Picked fruit? Worked a farm? That's back breaking work so get off your high fucking horse and think a little bit from their perspective.

[Lueyen]

Alright, you conservative types, please, tell us EXACTLY how you would go about rounding up oh, 8 to 10 million people and forcibly deport them? What are your logistical plans for this? If you're going to bitch about this plan you must have some plan of your own, right? Sorry, complaining "IT'S AMNESTY" without some counter-plan of your own that could realistically be employed is metaphorically pissing upwind and accomplishes nothing.

So really, I want to hear how you're going to FIND all these people, how you're going to collect 10+ MILLION people and get them to move anywhere. Do you expect no resistance to this? Do you expect no problems from relatives of theirs who ARE legal? Do you want paramilitary squads to be kicking in doors to conduct house to house searches for illegal immigrants hiding in the basement with no probable cause to pick the houses other than that you've heard hispanic people live there? Lets hear your methodology here. Honestly, I want to hear exactly how you're going to accomplish your apparent goal to deport every single one of these people. Well?

-Arlos

In short that's not the approach we should take. We don't need to seek out illegals to deport on a massive scale. All that we would need to do is enforce employment laws to the point where it becomes counter productive for an employer to hire or keep illegal aliens employed. We also refuse illegal aliens social services beyond those that deal with life threatening issue at least where it's already feasible to do so (we wouldn't need to start having ID checks at soup kitchens, but establishing identification is already a part of many social and medical programs).

In short remove the major incentives for someone to stay here illegally and you not only help with reducing the number of people who try and come in illegally, but you also encourage those that are already here to go back to their country of citizenship and/or pursue legal status.

[Arlos]

That is just as realistic as saying we're going to fix the drug problem by getting rid of the demand. It's utterly unrealistic, completely impossible in the real world, and will *NEVER* happen. So stop suggesting it as if it were an actual plan.

The ONLY thing that will ever stop the illegal immigration is if they have equal opportunity in their own country that they have here. Period. Of course, propping up Mexico to the point where it would offer equal opportunity is just as pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking as cutting off the demand for migrant workers.

Plans need to deal with the really real world, not what your ideological blinders tell you it should be. In the real world, business owners are frequently venal and unconcerned about the law, and there's nowhere near enough enforcement in the country to ever catch even a significant fraction of them, even if you quadrupled the force. Even then, you'd have agents getting bought off, a big increase in the sales from fake-ID suppliers, and business and farm owners getting off scott-free because "Hey, the ID looked real to me! I'm not a trained lawman, how could I tell the difference?"

I have yet to hear one single solitary suggestion of ANY plan from your side that stands up to even the most cursory scrutiny or that would have even the slightest chance of accomplishing anything except wasting a lot of money. Care to try again?

-Arlos

[Lyion]

Are you for or against this plan, Arlos? What exactly do you think should be done?

[Arlos]

I haven't studied the plan enough to be strongly for or against it. As to my personal feelings, I can see both sides. For example, I am against expanding the H1B visa program, because I know for a fact there are tons of interested engineers from the US that would take jobs, so I can see the issue with the wage depression on the unskilled jobs. Still, even in places where they do pay the minimum wage, how many caucasians do you see out there picking strawberries, or what have you?

At the same time, I wonder what happened to the spirit and attitude of the country that caused the Statue of Liberty to carry the motto it does: "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." That used to be the US spirit, what happened to it?

In any case, regardless of my personal feelings on the issue, these peoplaree not going to go away, they are going to keep coming, and suggesting we forcibly evict the ones here already is utterly impractical. Thus, any plan on what to do MUST take those factors into account, along with the cultural and community issues regarding these people. From what little I've heard of the plan, it at least makes nods in those directions, which would put it 10,000 miles better than Kahar's concepts of "Build a Berlin Wall clone, but worse!" or shooting Mexicans on sight.

So, while I know we'll never force all employers to give minimum wage, but maybe some of these workers would actually turn in employers who tried to flout the minimum wage, if they weren't afraid of getting deported after reporting it to the cops. As it is now, the illegals can be treated abominably by their employers, and like as not they won't get the police involved, because even treated like shit, here is better than being forced to go back to the even worse shit they're trying to get away from. And hey, if they're on the books, that's more tax revenue.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

Your right arlos we should just give the country away to everyone at the expense of the people who pay into it. Outsourcing jobs and aliens coming in and taking jobs is a great combo for the AMERICAN people.

That shit about them doing jobs americans dont want to do is a half finished sentance. If anyone talking in that truthspeak was to finish the sentance they would say they are doing jobs americans wont do for slave wages. Im not even gonna get started on this shit tonight I am allready in a bad mood.

[Arlos]

OK, what exactly is YOUR plan, Spazz?

And did not actually read anything I wrote? Where I noted that if they weren't illegal, they COULD be paying into the system, and we might make some headway at foricng employers to pay minimum wage?

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

my plan is one of extreme violence, you probably wouldnt want to hear my ideas for illegals.

[Arlos]

Engage in snuff fantasies in your own head if you want, I certainly can't stop you (though I'd certainly suggest professional psychiatric help). But fantasize you might, even YOU have to admit gunning them down in the streets is not a solution that could EVER be applied in the real world.

-Arlos

[Yamori]

Not many Americans are vying for coveted positions of fruit-picking and landscaping, but I bet a lot are for construction - which is apparently filled with illegals now.

[Markarado]

I'm not going to say shit as I've been living in Malaysia for YEARS on a tourist visa. All I have to do is leave the country every 90 days to renew it. I'm now working here without a work visa - not paying taxes.

I'm not stealing any jobs, and I will get my work visa as soon as this business I'm working on takes off so that I can open it as a Sdn. Bhd. (some kinda company here).

Go American passports for making this shit possible.

[Lueyen]

Arlos I'm not talking about adding additional penalties and enforcements, I'm talking about correct implementation of the system as is. It is the turning a blind eye to existing laws to a large extent by government agencies that landed us where we are now. The SSA for it's part does do a decent job, but the IRS has been found very lacking in a few areas, mainly surrounding the issuance and acceptance of personal tax identification numbers with the absence of SS numbers. Basically the problem revolves around the IRS overlooking the absence of SS numbers on tax documentation both in payments and refunds, and it's acceptance of it's internally issued tax ident numbers in lieu of SS numbers.

So the first step is to stop disregard for incomplete information by the paper pushers. Once that happens employers can be notified when discrepancies occur, such as invalid SS numbers or fraudulent use of valid ones. Only if the business once made aware of a fraudulent situation refuses to act do you then pursue them in a legal matter. This removes any doubt as to the intent of a business to follow the law. It also creates a situation where falsified information is of temporary value.

No solution is perfect and there will be officials who will take bribes, there will be those who seek a way to circumvent the system in their attempts to get away with breaking the law, but this should not be used as a justification for not even bothering with enforcement... apply that thought process to other areas and tell me who's being unrealistic.

The reality is that the problem can not be solved in one area alone. Securing the borders, enforcement of employment laws, addressing legal immigration process inefficiency, detainment and deportations all on their own will not solve anything because they all contribute to the issue and each area must be addressed and in doing so can be effective.

What you seem to suggest is that the problem is insurmountable, and that the answer lies in therefore refusing to attempt to actually solve it, but instead to change the laws and policies so as to make the legal side of the issue a non factor... and in the end the social issues will remain and only get worse.

I completely reject any notion that comes down to the basic idea that illegal aliens are "doing jobs Americans won't do". The reason you don't see legal citizens doing jobs that have been by enlarge taken over by migrant workers and illegal aliens is that they can find better elsewhere. Bush dropped what should be the other half the statement. Illegal aliens do jobs Americans won't do for undervalued compensation. The greatest travesty in the whole issue is that our society has resigned to turning a blind eye to our exploitation of third world labor, and that needs to end.

[Harrison]

Also, I can't believe I heard someone in this country suggesting building a structure akin to the Berlin Wall. Yes, that's right, lets build our OWN monument to oppression and tyranny, and man it with machine gun nests and barbed wire. I mean, the Berlin Wall was SO popular with the US and the entire western world, right? We so cheered those brave guards on the wall gunning down people trying to cross, right? Well, that's what you're advocating.

I can't believe someone as intelligent as you clearly are is comparing this idea to the Berlin wall.

[Arlos]

I didn't make that comparison, look at Kahar's posts earlier in this thread. HE called for, and I am quoting here: "We build a wall that makes Berlin look like a chicken coup fence". That's what I was referring to. Just do a text search for "Berlin" on page 1 of this thread if you wish to find the post in question. My comment make more sense now?

-Arlos

[numatu]

For Kahar to even bring up the Berlin Wall is so out of touch it's frightening. Any country that builds a wall or system of checkpoints is doing so to protect their borders from incoming illegal entry. The Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in.

[Martrae]

Dear God you people are thick.

[Zanchief]

my plan is one of extreme violence, you probably wouldnt want to hear my ideas for illegals.

It seems to be a common opinion amongst those in a position to judge, like pot heads and coke heads and other people who think breaking laws is a crime worthy of public execution.

[Evermore]

even thou building a wall/fence or whatever would help cut down on drug trafficing and gun running across our border, along with forcing people to enter the US legally, it doesnt solve the whole issue. a fence/wall can only be a part of a solution.

[kaharthemad]

ok lets take one person one at a time. When you find an illegal trying to get a job under properly enforced laws. You drop him off on the other side of a fence. We have many options for repeat offenders. One, put them to work preferably in a orange jumpsuit for 2 months no pay only 3 squares and a cot. When their time is done back to Mexico.
We allow those that would like to be here the chance to work for their citizenry. We just dont give it to them.

There is no reason we as a society should be giving amnesty to people refusing to follow the laws of our land. They are invaders. They have crossed international borders without permission of this government and with the consent of their government.


The wall is what we need. that way when someone comes into this country we can check to make sure he is not on the terrorist list. Or hey, actually is who he says he is.

Again for a mentally damaged. the whipping and shooting was a as Lyion said. bad humor so My apologies.

Back to seriousness. I have a couple questions for you.

How many of you will be screaming when another attack on US soil happens and you find they crossed the border from Mexico illegally and who will you blame?


Did we really forget the price we paid 6 years ago for being lax if you dont care about it now, how many lives will it take?

How many of you would be towing this line if it was not a republican or a libertarian that is complaining about the Amnesty issue?

If amnesty is out of the question, what suggestions do you have? cause frankly I see you people whining about it but not trying to hash out a solution.