Life Term for Teen in Principal's Death

[Harrison]

Seriously, like I've said, you want to help people?

Aim higher on the food chain.

This cockroach deserves not even the fucking cost to our taxes it will take to keep him fed.

[Zanchief]

A simple time out and a warning is by no means sufficient for this sociopath.

That's not what we're talking about at all.

You're assuming that psychiatric care will do nothing for him. I'm hoping it does.

You're assuming he's a lost cause and we should hide him from the world for as long as possible. I'm thinking we could try.

[10sun]

A simple time out and a warning is by no means sufficient for this sociopath.

That's not what we're talking about at all.

You're assuming that psychiatric care will do nothing for him. I'm hoping it does.

You're assuming he's a lost cause and we should hide him from the world for as long as possible. I'm thinking we could try.

You are assuming that there is going to be no mental health care available for him both prior to going to prison and while in prison.

I said nothing about that in my latest post, however I did make mention of that earlier which was widely ignored until it suited your purpose. He will be in a juvenile facility until he is 18 years old, at least. Quite possibly longer.

I by no means advocate letting him out early however. You can always write him a letter saying how sorry you are that the big mean people think that people should go to prison for committing acts of premeditated murder though.

[Gypsiyee]

First off, the family will never have justice. There is no way to bring back the dead.

You tell that to the family of the deceased and then discuss the great idea of not making this kid pay for his actions - you tell the family that instead of having him learn what a consequence is, you'd rather HELP and apologize to the person who ripped a life from them well before it was due. Tell a family who just lost someone they loved that 'oh well, it's too late for him, he aint comin back - but good news! We can try to save the poor kid who murdered him and we can hug him and coddle him and tell him that it'll all be okay and it isn't his fault he killed someone, he was just crazy from all the bad people - how does that sound!'

I guarantee you'd be singing a different tune if it was Kahar, and you wouldn't look at the kid and say oh you poor thing.

*Yes* he should get mental help. *No* it shouldn't be a get out of jail free card for consequence of premeditated murder.

[Harrison]

There's all the mental help he'll need in one convenient package. It's significantly cheaper than feeding, clothing, housing, and giving a murderer another chance to kill.

[Martrae]

First off, the family will never have justice. There is no way to bring back the dead.

You tell that to the family of the deceased and then discuss the great idea of not making this kid pay for his actions - you tell the family that instead of having him learn what a consequence is, you'd rather HELP and apologize to the person who ripped a life from them well before it was due. Tell a family who just lost someone they loved that 'oh well, it's too late for him, he aint comin back - but good news! We can try to save the poor kid who murdered him and we can hug him and coddle him and tell him that it'll all be okay and it isn't his fault he killed someone, he was just crazy from all the bad people - how does that sound!'

I guarantee you'd be singing a different tune if it was Kahar, and you wouldn't look at the kid and say oh you poor thing.

*Yes* he should get mental help. *No* it shouldn't be a get out of jail free card for consequence of premeditated murder.

Giving someone with mental problems help doesn't mean "hugging and coddling". Also, why is being trapped in a mental health facility 'better' than being trapped in a prison cell. At least in a mental health climate some good could be done.


I'd like to think that the family of a man who dedicated his life to kids would have compassion for a kid that was so out of whack that he killed someone.

[Gypsiyee]

Most people who kill people are 'out of whack.' Am I supposed to feel compassion for every murderer if they had a bad childhood? That's flippin ridiculous. I feel pretty bad for the columbine shooters - they were so out of whack they killed people, poor kids I feel pretty bad for the asian who shot up VT, he was so out of whack that he thought people needed to die for enjoying privileges they were lucky enough to be granted, that poor kid - let's not put him in prison, let's nod and say we understand his turmoil and find out what we can do to make him feel better - after all, he's just out of whack.

Have you ever actually BEEN in a children's mental health facility? There's little to no actual mental help. They're a crock of shit, throwing prescription after prescription at people and then sending them for activities like arts and crafts to keep them entertained. The facilities provide little one on one time and consist of a bunch of bullshit mental health tests that are completely canned and the actual doctors spend no time with you - they read their paperwork and brand the patient without actually learning one on one how they tick. I could go into a 5 page rant about adolescent mental health care hospitals and their complete lack of productivity, but I'll refrain from that.

It *is* in every sense of the word hugging and coddling. It's saying hey, if you kill someone you don't have to worry about prison, instead we'd like to try and get to know you and find somewhere else to allocate the blame of your unspeakable crime of taking another humans life. It's not your fault, it's the parents fault, it's society's fault, it's everyone else's fault. All it's doing is fulfilling the stereotypical american dream of placing the blame somewhere else so as to not take responsibility for your own actions. The FAMILY is accountable for his abuse. HE is accountable for taking a loaded gun to school and killing a man.

[Martrae]

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Columbine and VT shooters. I feel sorry for anyone that sees violence as their only way out of their situation. How lost they must be.

[Xaiveir]

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Columbine and VT shooters. I feel sorry for anyone that sees violence as their only way out of their situation. How lost they must be.

Out of curiosity. If the columbine shooters or the VT shooter walked out with their hands up, instead of killing themselves. Would you vote for them to go to a mental institution to try and save them, as well?

[Lyion]

We have a 15 year old special needs child who in reality is at a 10 year old level of understanding.

His parents took no interest in him, to the point of not even washing his clothes regularly. He had no support, this child in a hostile environment trying to survive.

This child sought help from those there to protect him, the principle and teachers. They gave him none. He felt betrayed.

Given his low maturity, he doesn't understand why people are so mean and nasty to him, and even less why those in positions of authority allow him to be tortured.

In a singular fit of anger and humiliation he takes his Dads guns to school to fight back against what he doesn't understand and is hurting him.

His purpose from the interviews with police was to get the school people to listen to him, and to stop others from hurting him. Evidently, a group of boys was holding him down, and sexually rubbing against him while calling him 'fag', 'homo', and similar terms.

When he got to school, he was disarmed by the Janitor who took the shotgun out of his hands while he was pointing it. If he had really been there for murder, he would've fired the shotgun, and not just stood there.

The principle came down and confronted the child. In the process of this, he was shot three times.

This is murder, but this was in essence a young, confused, hurt child lashing out. This was not a premediated adult murder as so many of you are insinuating.

Everyone keeps talking about the crime, but the system is supposed to be about justice. Giving this child, with his 10 year old maturity level life in prison is ineed a mockery of that...

Out of curiosity. If the columbine shooters or the VT shooter walked out with their hands up, instead of killing themselves. Would you vote for them to go to a mental institution to try and save them, as well?

This is an example of two underaged people who SHOULD get life imprison, if they didn't off themselves. This was premediated cold blooded killing, by people who were off normal mindset.

[Gypsiyee]

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Columbine and VT shooters. I feel sorry for anyone that sees violence as their only way out of their situation. How lost they must be.

Feeling bad for humanity and how sad it is that someone resorts to that is one thing. Using it as a justification and victimizing them is a completely different story. Yes it's sad in a sense that people resort for that, but not the type of sad that makes me want to pat them and tell them how sorry I am that their head isn't right. It's sad for society, but the murderers are *not* the victims.

[Martrae]

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Columbine and VT shooters. I feel sorry for anyone that sees violence as their only way out of their situation. How lost they must be.

Out of curiosity. If the columbine shooters or the VT shooter walked out with their hands up, instead of killing themselves. Would you vote for them to go to a mental institution to try and save them, as well?

Actually, no. Their cases are a little different. They all went in with the express purpose of killing as many people as they could. This kid could have done that if he wanted to...he certainly had the opportunity, he passed multiple people while wandering the school...but instead only one person was killed and it could be argued that it was accidental.

[Zanchief]

It's sad for society, but the murderers are *not* the victims.

He's not a victim for killing someone, Gyps. He's a victim because of all the other things that happened to him. You have to look at this situation objectively instead of blindly hating a person for what he's done.

[10sun]

We have a 15 year old special needs child who in reality is at a 10 year old level of understanding.

His parents took no interest in him, to the point of not even washing his clothes regularly. He had no support, this child in a hostile environment trying to survive.

This child sought help from those there to protect him, the principle and teachers. They gave him none. He felt betrayed.

Given his low maturity, he doesn't understand why people are so mean and nasty to him, and even less why those in positions of authority allow him to be tortured.

In a singular fit of anger and humiliation he takes his Dads guns to school to fight back against what he doesn't understand and is hurting him.

His purpose from the interviews with police was to get the school people to listen to him, and to stop others from hurting him. Evidently, a group of boys was holding him down, and sexually rubbing against him while calling him 'fag', 'homo', and similar terms.

When he got to school, he was disarmed by the Janitor who took the shotgun out of his hands while he was pointing it. If he had really been there for murder, he would've fired the shotgun, and not just stood there.

The principle came down and confronted the child. In the process of this, he was shot three times.

This is murder, but this was in essence a young, confused, hurt child lashing out. This was not a premediated adult murder as so many of you are insinuating.

Everyone keeps talking about the crime, but the system is supposed to be about justice. Giving this child, with his 10 year old maturity level life in prison is ineed a mockery of that...

Bullshit. I am told I act like a 2 year old at times, but that doesn't mean I should be allowed a carte blanche to kill whomever I would like.

If he was having a "singular fit" then he would not have packed the box of ammo. He intended to go there and kill.

And that is what he did.

He fired the revolver 3 times into his principal. Don't try to write that off as being part of the struggle to disarm him because the ballistic evidence proved that those three shots were fired before the principal even reached him which matched what the eye witnesses said.

[Gypsiyee]

Not understanding why people are mean and nasty is *not* a justification to use a WEAPON to get attention - what is so hard to understand about that? 10 year old maturity or not, you name me one 10 year old who isn't taught in school or otherwise that violence is not the answer. By 10 you've already gone through education courses on why you don't play with guns.

The fact that he used the gun FOR ATTENTION is *exactly* the reason it's obvious he knew just what he was doing. Using a threat of violence to get people to pay attention to him. He knew that the threat would get attention, and he knew it would get attention because it was something that could inflict great pain. That is why he used it for attention, because it was something that could invoke fear. If he didn't know what he was doing, he wouldn't know to use a gun to grab attention.

[Gypsiyee]

It's sad for society, but the murderers are *not* the victims.

He's not a victim for killing someone, Gyps. He's a victim because of all the other things that happened to him. You have to look at this situation objectively instead of blindly hating a person for what he's done.

Yes, I've not said he's not a victim of that; however, that is a separate entity entirely and should be a completely separate case. In the crime that he is being convicted of now, he is not the victim and in this case he should not be portrayed as a victim.

[Lyion]

The crux of the point is should a child be punished the same as an adult?

Should a mentally retarded person who performs something receive the same punishment as someone of normal IQ, even if the understanding isn't there?

Should there be any differentation? Is this kid in your mind exactly the same as the Columbine ones?

[Xaiveir]

Actually, I do feel sorry for the Columbine and VT shooters. I feel sorry for anyone that sees violence as their only way out of their situation. How lost they must be.

Out of curiosity. If the columbine shooters or the VT shooter walked out with their hands up, instead of killing themselves. Would you vote for them to go to a mental institution to try and save them, as well?

Actually, no. Their cases are a little different. They all went in with the express purpose of killing as many people as they could. This kid could have done that if he wanted to...he certainly had the opportunity, he passed multiple people while wandering the school...but instead only one person was killed and it could be argued that it was accidental.

I will certainly conceed that point. The cases are different.

Regardless of whether or not he has a 10 year old brain, it can comprehend what a gun can do. If he can comprehend that a gun can kill people, then he can comprehend murder. If he can comprehend murder he knows its wrong. Ergo, regardless if he was there to kill 1 person or 100, its still murder. 10 year old brain or not.

Just my view, and i am glad he is behind bars. I am sure he can get some psychiatric help there (and will).

I feel bad for the kid, but regardless he has to be punished. I hate to say it but he also has to be made an example of. It is hard for me to say that, especially if that was my own flesh and blood. I think out system is way to lenient on alot of subjects though.

I'll agree to disagree with Mar.

[Martrae]

He fired the revolver 3 times into his principal. Don't try to write that off as being part of the struggle to disarm him because the ballistic evidence proved that those three shots were fired before the principal even reached him which matched what the eye witnesses said.

That's funny...because the actual quote from the trial logs states:

Court adjourned after hearing from a DCI Firearms Examiner. He testified to damage to the handgun found at the scene, and how it had to be un-bent in a vice to fire for ballistics testing. He says there were 5 fired rounds in the gun, two of which he believes were fired during the struggle for the gun. He also brought out Klang's shirt from that day, showing how and where he tested it to discover that Klang was shot from less than two inches away, or point blank range.

There also were NO actual eyewitnesses....just one teacher who turned around AFTER the shots were fired.



I can live with that Xaiv.

[Gypsiyee]

The crux of the point is should a child be punished the same as an adult?

Should a mentally retarded person who performs something receive the same punishment as someone of normal IQ, even if the understanding isn't there?

Should there be any differentation? Is this kid in your mind exactly the same as the Columbine ones?

He's not exactly the same, no - he is similar in the sense that he was getting picked on and figured hey I'll bring in a gun and that'll solve my problems.

It's not like he has downs syndrome and his brain isn't capable of understanding what exactly might happen that day that he brought a loaded gun to school. If it was just to threaten, he could've just brought the gun and waved it around. He did not. He loaded it. He knew exactly what he was capable of with the gun in his hands, he knew exactly what the outcome would be. He had a plan, and he went with it.

At what age do you think that a person is capable of getting punished for this type of crime? 17? That's still under age, but would you honestly say that a 17 year old who committed the same crime should get a lighter punishment than an 18 year old who did the same?

[10sun]

I am at a disadvantage right now because I cannot copy and paste anything, however that trial log says the same thing as I did with more detail. I did not know about the two rounds that were fired in the struggle itself, but the account I read said that they determined that the principal was hit prior to engaging in the struggle based upon the evidence.

[Lyion]

He didn't come with intent to do mass murder. He arguably didn't come with intent to do ANY murder. The shotgun had one shell. The handgun was a .22.

In regards to age, I think each case should be evaluated independently. This was clearly a child, and he got a tougher sentence than many adults, despite the controversial nature of the shooting.

At what age do we treat children like children and not adults? 15 is pretty close to 13. Heck, shouldn't anyone who commits a crime at any age get the same punishment?

[Gypsiyee]

I imagine that would be where the 3rd bullet came from, since it states that only 2 were in the struggle

That's 1 bullet too many for an 'oops' defense if you ask me~

[Gypsiyee]

He didn't come with intent to do mass murder. He arguably didn't come with intent to do ANY murder. The shotgun had one shell. The handgun was a .22.

In regards to age, I think each case should be evaluated independently. This was clearly a child, and he got a tougher sentence than many adults, despite the controversial nature of the shooting.

At what age do we treat children like children and not adults? 15 is pretty close to 13. Heck, shouldn't anyone who commits a crime at any age get the same punishment?

Nope, 15 is the age you can get a learners permit, get a workers permit, etc. Teenage and above is fair game imo.

"Arguably didn't come with intent to do ANY murder." Okay, what's the intent of a loaded gun, then? To shoot in the air and have a ho-down at school? The gun would've caused just as much an alarm without the bullets as it would've with, because without actually seeing it they wouldn't have known it wasn't loaded. I think you're giving him too much credit - he knows exactly what's going on.

[Xaiveir]

I'm sorry, i do not buy the "He just brought them to school to scare them" Defense.

That is fancy lawyer tricks right there.