Military Funeral protestors lose $11million lawsuit

[Arlos]

Remember those jackasses at the Westboro baptist Church? The ones that would go to military funerals and hold up signs saying that their family member died as god's punishment for the US tolerating homosexuality? Well, they just got some comeuppance...

BALTIMORE, Maryland (AP) -- A grieving father won a nearly $11 million verdict Wednesday against a fundamentalist Kansas church that pickets military funerals in the belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

lbert Snyder of York, Pennsylvania., sued the Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified damages after members demonstrated at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.

The jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned later in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress.

U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett noted the size of the award for compensating damages "far exceeds the net worth of the defendants," according to financial statements filed with the court.

Church members routinely picket funerals of military personnel killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, carrying signs such as "Thank God for dead soldiers" and "God hates fags."

A number of states have passed laws regarding funeral protests, and Congress has passed a law prohibiting such protests at federal cemeteries.

But the Maryland lawsuit is believed to be the first filed by the family of a fallen serviceman.

The church and three of its leaders -- the Rev. Fred Phelps and his two daughters, Shirley Phelps-Roper and Rebecca Phelps-Davis, 46 -- were found liable for invasion of privacy and intent to inflict emotional distress.

Snyder claimed the protests intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.

The church members testified they are following their religious beliefs by spreading the message that the deaths of soldiers are due to the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

Their attorneys argued in closing statements Tuesday that the burial was a public event and that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech and religion.

The judge said the church's financial statements, sealed earlier, could be released to the plaintiffs.

Earlier, church members staged a demonstration outside the federal courthouse.

Church founder Fred Phelps held a sign reading "God is your enemy," while Shirley Phelps-Roper stood on an American flag and carried a sign that read "God hates fag enablers."

Members of the group sang "God Hates America" to the tune of "God Bless America."

I do agree with the argument that even abhorrent points of view are protected by the first amendment, but that doesn't give them right to intrude on a family's private grief at a funeral. Protest outside city hall all they want, or outside the White House even, but abusing a private ceremony and a family's grief, hell no.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

Good!

[Tikker]

I'd actually like to see if someone disagrees with this, heh

[Kramer]

"God hates fag enablers."



wow.

[Jennay]

Those people aren't very Christian-like.

[Gypsiyee]

if "God hates america" so much why the hell are they here? and what does the war have to do with homosexuality at all? let them go to any other country, it's just as accepted sans countries with dictator-like countries.

what horrid people, I recall this case well and I'm glad they got fined so heavily. how sad that there are actually going to be an abundance of 'christians' who agree with this rubbish.

[Sentro]

what horrid people, I recall this case well and I'm glad they got fined so heavily. how sad that there are actually going to be an abundance of 'christians' who agree with this rubbish.

I really dont see any true christian who would follow that bullshit, and to say " an abundance" seems to be more than just a far streatch. Lets ask all the christians on this boared and see if any of them agree with that bullshit.

[Gypsiyee]

The problem is that a pretty good portion of 'christians' are not true christians at all and are exactly what causes people who aren't religious to hold any disdain toward those who are. There are a lot of so called christians who go to church every sunday and think themselves better than those who do not; go to a place made of stone just like anywhere else and are judgmental and generally snide for the other 6 days and find themselves superior.

There are obviously christians who practice the principles, but I'd wager that there are going to be at least 1/3 who are as extreme as these, 1/3 who are christians as a 'free ticket to heaven' with no idea what it means to be a christian, and 1/3 who are true Christians and live like they are. There are definitely going to be those who agree, in the very least in silence, with these monstrous people.

That's why I put the word christian in quotes, because there is a very big difference between a true christian and one who thinks they are and lives completely opposite the values and morals of their religion.

[Tikker]

it's pretty old testament style to expect retribution from god when you stray for his desired path tho

[Gaazy]

I swear on my life if they ever came to someone in my families funeral and tried this shit, they would be dead. Between me and my redneck family, I can almost guarentee someone would die that day and the jailhouse would gain a few more members

[Kramer]

yeah, "christian" is one of those words that means something different to pretty much every single person you talk too, so much so it is a really meaningless label.

i mean Bill O'Reilly harps on the fact that The USA is run by old white christian men.... which is just about as meaningless a statement as you can get simply because the word christian in that description certainly doesn't mean "people who wander around living their life exactly like Jesus did".

the same that christians protest the Gay-Pride parade in Houston every year by making sings that say things like "gay sex is evil" "Homosexuals will burn in hell"

the best is when the christians draw stick figures of people having anal relations.... hillarious, they are so aghast by it but they take the time draw pictures of it...



i think the dude in the green jacket is taking a pic on his camera phone



check out the web site... http://www.jesuswouldbeashamedofyou.com/

[Narrock]

They should devote their time to charities instead of wasting time to spread hate. Sad.

[Lueyen]

I swear on my life if they ever came to someone in my families funeral and tried this shit, they would be dead. Between me and my redneck family, I can almost guarentee someone would die that day and the jailhouse would gain a few more members

Anyones family in my mind. My dad joined the patriot guard and has for the last year and a half or so spent about 2 weekends a month going to funerals. That these people can go and put themselves in between the grieving families and these jerks without coming to blows or worse is commendable, I don't know how my dad does it, he's a better man than I.

[Lyion]

The problem is that a pretty good portion of 'christians' are not true christians at all and are exactly what causes people who aren't religious to hold any disdain toward those who are. There are a lot of so called christians who go to church every sunday and think themselves better than those who do not; go to a place made of stone just like anywhere else and are judgmental and generally snide for the other 6 days and find themselves superior.

There are obviously christians who practice the principles, but I'd wager that there are going to be at least 1/3 who are as extreme as these, 1/3 who are christians as a 'free ticket to heaven' with no idea what it means to be a christian, and 1/3 who are true Christians and live like they are. There are definitely going to be those who agree, in the very least in silence, with these monstrous people.

That's why I put the word christian in quotes, because there is a very big difference between a true christian and one who thinks they are and lives completely opposite the values and morals of their religion.

2/3 of the country are Christian. Do you really think that many tens of millions in this country are that extreme? We're talking about 25 people or so in Phelps nutter group. It's much easier to find hundreds of whackjob 9/11 is an inside job nutters than it is to find 100 insane Christians.

I take it your parents aren't Christian and none of your friends are, either, Gyp, since you just essentially said a good chunk of them are whackjobs.

[Gypsiyee]

oh I have "christians" in my family - most the second type, who say they are but don't live that way. My father, who curses muslims every day and argues to the end about Christianity and how everyone should be one, then turns around and has been unfaithful in every relationship he's been in, is almost racist enough to deserve his damn white hat, has passed judgment on virtually every person he's met, and hasn't seen a church door or prayed in years, for example; he is not an extremist, he's simply the type who needs to stfu because he's your hypocrite "Christian;" again, note the quotes - those are not Christians.. At the same token, I have true Christians in my family who live by the rules they were taught to live by, are humble and respectful and accepting and generous to people from *all* walks of life, volunteer their time to help people, donate money to charities rather than the 'give our church more tv's' fake donation plate. Their churches are more concerned with the welfare of mankind than their relig-o-peen and how big and new their building is. These people in my family are Christians in every sense of the word. The case was the same at the church I attended with my friends by choice when I was younger.

Look at Kramers post - do you believe those people to be Christians? Because yes, there *are* millions of those types of people about, and those are the ones that I'm talking about who will agree, be it in silence or otherwise, with the noted subject.

Those are not christians.

2/3 of America CLAIMS to be Christian, sure - but the percentage of those who actually live as christians is lower - think of your 'christian' politicians getting caught paying people for sex, the 'christian' church leaders molesting children, and the 'christians' who condemn people who aren't of their beliefs to hell, as if it's in their judgment to do so. Coulter is a 'christian' - the senator in FL who just got caught offering money for *gay sexual favors* is 'christian' - the people who I used to see standing on the corners DAILY as I drove to work with big posterboards saying all gays are going to hell and did the same outside abortion clinics with megaphones screaming at people were 'Christian.' These people are self proclaimed Christians, but they are NOT Christians and should not be viewed as such, nor should they be counted as part of our so-called Christian nation. If you want to count those people as Christians, you go right ahead, but if they are I certainly don't want to be a part of that mix.

Believing in God doesn't make you a Christian.

[araby]

christians need to take their religion back. (a little more responsibly too!)

[Lyion]

Wow. Your post has so many generalizations and is so far from the truth of the what I've seen I'm not sure how to respond.

Suffice to say I think there are millions of Cafeteria Catholic type Christians, but I don't see 10s of millions of extremists.

I do see a horde of under-educated, over opinionated young people with a lack of life experiences who make proclamations that are not with merit or the basic search for truth of earlier generations.

[Gypsiyee]

I asked you a question though - do you consider the people in Kramers posted photos christians?

I said there are 3 types - 1. true christians 2. christians who think they are but dont live like it and 3. christians who are adamant about the religion who seem to know nothing but judging and hate for those unlike them, ie the extremists

what do you consider the ones in that picture to be?

[Arlos]

The problem with modern christianity is that it has become far more about dogma than it is about the teachings of Christ himself.

What were some of Christ's direct teachings? (paraphrased, cause I don't want to look them up)
Treat others as you yourself would be treated.
Love others as you would love me.
Turn the other cheek.
The meek shall inherit the earth.
It will be easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
Tolerate everyone, no matter how disgusting society finds them (showed this by how he treated lepers)
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (ie, don't judge others since you yourself are imperfect)


Funny, when you look at modern Christian churches and modern "Christians", especially those on the religious right, I see almost none of those items being followed. First via proselytizing they show their contempt and disdain for other religions. Second, most all of them, up to and including the pope seem awful judgemental on other people's lives and lifestyles, don't you think? (Oh yes, lets agree with excommunicating politicians who voted pro on any abortion question, like he did when he made his recent trip to south america) You think Pat Robertson is poor? hah. They don't exactly show a whole lot of meekness, either, now do they. Nor a whole lot of tolerance, like as with this phelps crowd.

No, they are far more about the rules and strictures in which the religion has been codified and bound up in than they are about the actual teachings of Jesus. Questioning the rules from On High is discouraged, tolerance is discouraged, and even the Golden Rule isn't followed. Sure, there are individuals that break with the dogma and try to follow the teachings better than their churches do, but they're in the minority.

And no, I am NOT a young person who lacks life experiences who never underwent a personal search for truth, Lyion. If I WAS someone who still hadn't bothered with such a personal search, I'd still be Catholic.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Maybe the Phelps group thinks that they are Christians, and they believe in their heart that they are doing the right thing because (unbeknownst to them) they are taking a fanatical view of scripture (as well as being mesmerized and brainwashed by Phelps) -- much like the muslim extremists who take a distorted and twisted view of the Quran. To them, they are doing the "right thing," and we on the outside of those groups see it as wrong, immoral, and insane. Gyps is right in that a "Christian" is not just somebody who believes that Jesus died on the cross for them, but that they also live the life of a Christian and follow Jesus' teachings. I know that I certainly have not lived up that standard and have prominently displayed that several times over the years here on the NT.

I wish that prominent, charismatic Christian leaders would step up and condemn Phelps and his followers for their current actions, and help them "see the light" so they can focus their energy and time spreading the word of love and peace. I think if we all pray to God (or whatever higher spirit you relate to) and ask that Deity to go into the hearts, minds, and souls of the Phelps' bunch to show them the errors of their ways... that maybe someday it will all sink in, and they will stop spreading hate and making other people feel even worse than they already do, ie: mourners at funerals of beloved relatives and friends.

[Gypsiyee]

Well said, both Arlos and Mindia.

I will say that personally it's pretty offensive to have any opinion pawned off as 'youth without life experience' - there are a lot of people younger than 30 who have seen more in their lives than 60 year olds - take a young soldier who's been to war as opposed to a middle aged person from money who's always had everything, for example - age doesn't necessarily reflect experience all the time, and definitely shouldn't be a reason to omit the opinions of a person.

[Lyion]

nm...I had a long post, but it really isn't useful or beneficial to discuss things like this here.

I think those people are misguided, Gyp. I try not to be judgemental, but at the same time I have hotbutton issues, too. Regardless, all things should be approached with rational discourse. It's tough to have discourse with people who are angry, regardless of which side of the spectrum they are on.