SC Dem debate last night

[Arlos]

Still waiting for some responses to my concerns of a page ago.

-Arlos

[Tossica]

Still waiting for some responses to my concerns of a page ago.

-Arlos

Noone has bothered to think that far ahead.

"If corporation 1 won't sell me my air for a reasonable price, I'l just wait until another corporation comes along that will! Oh wait, you mean I'll die if I don't breathe? Yikes, I guess I better just pay what they want. Thank Ron Paul for unregulated capitalism!"

[Tossica]

Those tax dollars that are "wasted" on the government’s bureaucracy is still providing employment for people after all, so the money isn't disappearing.

Just wanted to comment on this since I have firsthand experience here

Here is what I've learned working on base. Tax dollars pay high wages, 2+ months of vacation, fantastic sick leave, amazing thrift savings plans, etc for employees with absolutely no work ethic who would never survive in the real world. In the 200 people I've dealt with consistently since I got a job here, about 90% of those people are completely worthless slobs who do absolutely no work and scream grievance every time they don't get their way.

As a contractor, I don't have this option and that's perfectly fine. Let me give you an example - person A cusses out his boss and gets in confrontation with co-worker. In order to reprimand person A, we now have to bring in at least 20 other people to research the situation and carefully document everything that happened. we also have to bring the union in to ensure fair treatment of person A. This is person A's 10th incident in 5 years. The first 3 times, all that's offered is help for anger issues and/or substance problems (while on the clock.) The next 3, suspension with pay. You got it, paid vacation for acting out. The next 4, minor suspensions without pay, all three of which the person files a grievance against his boss and has his boss investigated.

For all intents and purposes, this employee is notorious for sleeping on the job, watching TV rather than working, disappearing off site with no explanation, coming in late, leaving early, working on aircraft while under the influence, causing non-stop issues overall, with nothing worthwhile to contribute. However, he is untouchable. You cannot reprimand him without spending thousands upon thousands of government dollars, and you cannot fire him without multiple reprimands. You cannot fire him without a court case due to the unions, another multiple thousands of dollars for the court case to happen. In the case that you do finally fire him, he takes you to court for suffering and is rewarded an early retirement package that tax dollars pay for.

In the ~7 months I have been here, I have seen at least 3 cases similar to this. More often than not, supervisors don't bother to go through the precedings because it's simply not worth it. This isn't a great alternative either, because you're still paying for some shlub who doesn't do squat. Not to mention the 1k+ of awards that is still sourced to him throughout the year because awards are given as a one size fits all so as not to offend or cause a grievance.

Tell me our tax dollars aren't wasted. And this is only one example. I can give you 20.

Then fire the lazy sods, don't dismantle the whole program.

[Gaazy]

Gyp, did you just say 2+ MONTHS of vacation days?????

[Arlos]

Actually, other countries get far more vacation than we do. Switzerland, for example, starting time off is 6 weeks a year. Hell, even Japan mandates at least 5 weeks a year. I think Australia is 8 weeks a year. Compared to all other 1st world nations, Americans work far far more hours with far far less vacation than any other country. Japan is #2, but it's not close between them and us, really.

-Arlos

[Evermore]

Douchebags like Chief who sit on their ass and spout baseless and uninformed opinions on shit they have no clue about and have never dealt with personally will never understand things like this Gyps.

[Zanchief]

Douchebags like Chief who sit on their ass and spout baseless and uninformed opinions on shit they have no clue about and have never dealt with personally will never understand things like this Gyps.

Of course I do, I work for the government. That doesn't mean they are stealing, or cheating, it means they are stupid. That was my point all along. To claim they are "out to get you" is just insane conspiracy crap that some how Evermore can't let go of.

[Gypsiyee]

Those tax dollars that are "wasted" on the government’s bureaucracy is still providing employment for people after all, so the money isn't disappearing.

Just wanted to comment on this since I have firsthand experience here

Here is what I've learned working on base. Tax dollars pay high wages, 2+ months of vacation, fantastic sick leave, amazing thrift savings plans, etc for employees with absolutely no work ethic who would never survive in the real world. In the 200 people I've dealt with consistently since I got a job here, about 90% of those people are completely worthless slobs who do absolutely no work and scream grievance every time they don't get their way.

As a contractor, I don't have this option and that's perfectly fine. Let me give you an example - person A cusses out his boss and gets in confrontation with co-worker. In order to reprimand person A, we now have to bring in at least 20 other people to research the situation and carefully document everything that happened. we also have to bring the union in to ensure fair treatment of person A. This is person A's 10th incident in 5 years. The first 3 times, all that's offered is help for anger issues and/or substance problems (while on the clock.) The next 3, suspension with pay. You got it, paid vacation for acting out. The next 4, minor suspensions without pay, all three of which the person files a grievance against his boss and has his boss investigated.

For all intents and purposes, this employee is notorious for sleeping on the job, watching TV rather than working, disappearing off site with no explanation, coming in late, leaving early, working on aircraft while under the influence, causing non-stop issues overall, with nothing worthwhile to contribute. However, he is untouchable. You cannot reprimand him without spending thousands upon thousands of government dollars, and you cannot fire him without multiple reprimands. You cannot fire him without a court case due to the unions, another multiple thousands of dollars for the court case to happen. In the case that you do finally fire him, he takes you to court for suffering and is rewarded an early retirement package that tax dollars pay for.

In the ~7 months I have been here, I have seen at least 3 cases similar to this. More often than not, supervisors don't bother to go through the precedings because it's simply not worth it. This isn't a great alternative either, because you're still paying for some shlub who doesn't do squat. Not to mention the 1k+ of awards that is still sourced to him throughout the year because awards are given as a one size fits all so as not to offend or cause a grievance.

Tell me our tax dollars aren't wasted. And this is only one example. I can give you 20.

Then fire the lazy sods, don't dismantle the whole program.

This is what I'm saying. We *CANNOT* fire them. Federal regulations do not allow us to without massive time and costs.

Another story, though I'll make it more brief - this is one that one of my supervisors had to deal with

This guy was caught no less than 5 times high at work. Due to federal procedure regulations, he was offered counseling, hours and hours of paperwork blah blah blah - he was caught clocking himself for overtime and leaving base.. do you know how he was caught? He got picked up buying heroine during his overtime shift that he had gone in for and clocked for. He left the base to go buy it while government money was paying him time and a half. This wasn't the last incident - he got caught again, and finally was fired. 3 years later, the supervisor I mentioned who dealt with this comes in and sees this guy working on a plane.. shocked, the supervisor does some research, and the guy was hired back due to appealing his case with unions on his side - he was paid 3 years of back-pay in addition to a large sum for his hardship of not being able to work for the past 3 years. He retired a year later with his full retirement package.

Gaaz - yes, I did, if you take sick into account. Most employees who are 35 or older get 8 hours of annual every pay period, dependent on how long they've worked on base. Then you take sick leave into account, which they also accrue and can use how they like - my boss for example (though he's an extreme case because he's been there forever) has 1400 hours of unused sick leave. It doesn't go away when the year re-rolls.. so when he decides it's time to retire, he'll just use all that time as sick time and get paid full and not dip into his retirement until all that sick time runs out.

More often than not, people are forced to use their leave at the end of the year because annual doesn't re-roll, you can only store 240 hours and anything else you're told is use or lose. So in novemberish, you'll see people taking 3 week - 1 month vacations just on annual leave.

edit - Zan, all I'm saying is that the US govt is not the Canadian govt.. and you of all people certainly know that. Most of our money is wasted on pork and squandered, regardless of if they're out to get us or not. It doesn't matter if it's not a conspiracy, I still would sooner trust a company who has repercussions for their actions (ie, losing customers) than someone who's just 'stupid' and oops, we just wasted a billion dollars.

[Evermore]

Douchebags like Chief who sit on their ass and spout baseless and uninformed opinions on shit they have no clue about and have never dealt with personally will never understand things like this Gyps.

Of course I do, I work for the government. That doesn't mean they are stealing, or cheating, it means they are stupid. That was my point all along. To claim they are "out to get you" is just insane conspiracy crap that some how Evermore can't let go of.

Nice try at a spin, too bad you failed again. I have been saying that the government in general has been allowed to ignore the consititution and overstep its bounds at will and now does it with out concern or even a 2nd thought, and do believe thou i may be wrong, you work for the CANADIAN government not the US. you see HERE in the US, our governent is a mess. it needs to be changed, drastically and immediately. Chief people like you are why Hitlers can come to power and get away with what they do. You see this country ALLOWS us to protest and change what we dont like. its called FREE SPEECH and is allowed under our consititution. its also why the totally uninformed, uninvolved and clueless can come here and say what they want, which you, seem to be taking advantage of at will.

[Tossica]

This is what I'm saying. We *CANNOT* fire them. Federal regulations do not allow us to without massive time and costs.

So change the fuckin regulations that won't allow lazy bastards to be fired. There, MOST of the problems with government waste are now solved. Thank you.

[Arlos]

Evermore, care to respond to my concerns?

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

This is what I'm saying. We *CANNOT* fire them. Federal regulations do not allow us to without massive time and costs.

So change the fuckin regulations that won't allow lazy bastards to be fired. There, MOST of the problems with government waste are now solved. Thank you.

Exactly. It's actually the same way here and it really frustrates me. It's completely backwards. They think they're protecting their employees by creating all this red tape, but all their doing is hurting the productive ones (and the ones that could be hired). I'd wager it's actually worse here for red tape in regards to public servants.

I could go on for days on that subject but that still doesn't change the fact that those people are incompetent not evil. Doesnt mean we should dissolve the government and let greedy bastard corporations run things. It just means things need to be fixed.

[Evermore]

Evermore, care to respond to my concerns?

-Arlos

ah i thought you were asking yamori. ill go back and reread your post

[Yamori]

Belated response to Arlos:

Yeah, but who is going to hold Big Industry to environmental standards if the EPA doesn't exist?

Companies can (and should) be held liable for damages in lawsuits if they damage others' property or health with their pollutants or waste. Laws can still be made in regards to negligent waste disposal and such.

Sure, California (for example) will have strict laws, but funny that, air and water pollution don't stop at state borders. What happens if, say, Missouri is convinced by big business and big Agriculture to repeal water cleanliness laws, and dumps thousands of tons of waste, including deadly pesticides into the Missouri? You think that waste is going to not pass down to the Mississippi, and pollute every single state downstream? Yet if there's no national agency controlling that, what can those downstream states do to stop what Missouri did?

^ (see above). Companies can be held liable in lawsuits, and federal waste laws would still exist (presidents can't repeal laws, you know). Cross state investigations would fall into the domain of the FBI I'd assume.

Has Ron Paul given much lip service against the EPA anyways, saying it would be a primary target? I'd be interested to see some links or quotes.

What happens to worker safety concerns if OSHA no longer exists? What's to stop, say, Big Coal from buying the West Virginia legislature and legalizing 12 year old coal miners again, while outlawing unions, so we end up back like it was in the late-1800s/early-1900s? Just because buying influence by special interests and big corporations at the national level won't be wroth as much won't change anything, since they'll just turn around and buy equivalent interests at the state level. You won't change anything but the location of the purchases.

Unions are covered under the 1st amendment. Dismantling a federal department wouldn't dissolve federal child labor laws. And do you honestly believe that any state legislature could ever get away with legalizing child labor in these days?

Also remember that states don't command the massive funds that the federal government does. Using financial influence on a state house AND a state senate AND getting it signed by a state governors AND doing it covertly and successfully obviously won't be as financially rewarding as it is on the federal level. Compound that with the fact that influencing multiple states will cost MUCH more than influencing a single federal legislature. So dismissing corporate influence as "merely changing location" isn't very accurate. It will still exist, but much of it would be wiped out or immensely diminished. Do you really think drug companies, insurance companies, oil companies, ect, will get just as much loot from trying to influence 50 different states as they would from influencing the federal government?

Again, I'd be interested to see some quotes or links as to where Paul specifically discusses OSHA and it being a primary target. I haven't seen it.

In any case, you might recall something called the Civil War, which pretty thoroughly settled the question of whether or not states should be allowed to do whatever they damn well please, or whether the centralized federal government should be in charge. As a historian said about the outcome of that war: "Before the Civil War, the proper way to talk about the United States was to say 'The United States are'. Afterward, it became 'The United States IS'." Sorry, but I don't want to turn back 150 years of history and go back to being 'are'.

Wars don't settle the reality of what's actually right or wrong. Rome was conquered by barbarians hoards: it doesn't settle the question of whether nomadic-warrior societies are superior to civilized and technologically sophisticated ones.

You seem to be forgetting about the constitution. Turning over most federal department and program functions to the state level will NOT result in anarchy and the suppression of human rights. You know as well as I do that constitutional protections and federal law trump any state law, and that the repeal of federal child labor laws and the like simply won't ever happen through congress.

I don't agree with everything he stands for either, but the sheer magnitude of the good he'd accomplish outweighs the bad on an astronomical level. Think of all the waste, glut, corruption, deaths (of troops and of innocent people in foreign nations), and security threats (from "blowback") that would be reduced or eliminated under him. Think of all the money that will be freed up for domestic use. Think of the reinforcement of civil rights and how terribly important (and utterly neglected by all the modern politicians) it is for the country right now. I honestly can't fathom the thought process of preferring a status-quo democrat or republican to him.

[Evermore]

This is what I'm saying. We *CANNOT* fire them. Federal regulations do not allow us to without massive time and costs.

So change the fuckin regulations that won't allow lazy bastards to be fired. There, MOST of the problems with government waste are now solved. Thank you.

Exactly. It's actually the same way here and it really frustrates me. It's completely backwards. They think they're protecting their employees by creating all this red tape, but all their doing is hurting the productive ones (and the ones that could be hired). I'd wager it's actually worse here for red tape in regards to public servants.

I could go on for days on that subject but that still doesn't change the fact that those people are incompetent not evil. Doesnt mean we should dissolve the government and let greedy bastard corporations run things. It just means things need to be fixed.

the flaw is in the US anyway is that method of fixing is as bad if not worse then the issues. this government is notorious for just passing one law after another in an attempt to create or repair something. this "fix" as you are calling it is not going to be so simple. it has to be rebuilt and restructured. anyone that has worked on machinery can tell you this. it has to come apart remove the old and worn parts and put new in, upgrading where you can and as much as you can, even then there is only so much you can do before it has to be replaced all together.

I could go on for days on that subject but that still doesn't change the fact that those people are incompetent not evil. Doesnt mean we should dissolve the government and let greedy bastard corporations run things. It just means things need to be fixed.

1. no one said dissolve the government. tho even Thomas Jefferson said we need a good revolution every 200 yrs or so.

2. What is this "We" you speak of? You aren't american so this doesnt effect you, at all.

[Gypsiyee]

This is what I'm saying. We *CANNOT* fire them. Federal regulations do not allow us to without massive time and costs.

So change the fuckin regulations that won't allow lazy bastards to be fired. There, MOST of the problems with government waste are now solved. Thank you.

Labor is one issue in a whole shitload of issues. Not to mention that so long as the government provides these jobs, that will never change. That regulation will never change, the unions and congress will not allow for it. Instead, they did a 6 year study to see which positions could be contracted to 'save money.' My position is one that's contracted - great, I have a job, fantastic. However - the government pays out x thousand a year per employee to contract it so that they can hire or fire a contractor and not have to deal with benefits, vacation, etc. That's all good and well, BUT - my company makes alot, a LOT of money off of me per year, provides me absolute SHIT benefits, hardly any vacation, 6 days of 10 are taken up by a mandatory shutdown and if I don't have the vacation I go unpaid with no choice to work.

That's fine and well, but what's NOT fine and well is that they have my position contracted, I handle private protected data, but cannot do this, this, this and this legally since I'm a contractor, which basically cuts my ability to do my job in half - then, they have to have a civilian federal employee take over the roles that I cannot do - in my particular case, this provides work for 3 other people (federal civilians) who do nothing but 1/4 of a job that for any sensible human being takes less than a half hour of work a day - so, now instead of saving money they've spent more in the long run by adding a bunch of bureaucratic red tape that no one can get past because congress says so, even though congress does not deal with daily business function and has no idea how much more money it costs them in the end. My boss has no power to reward good behavior to contractors, but is obligated by congress to reward mediocrity in his civilian employees. There is no longer an 'excellent' on annual reviews due to lawsuits throughout the years and cries of this guy got more reward than me - uniform throughout all civilians is now 'acceptable' or 'unacceptable' in only 2 categories rather than the intricate parts of the job.

Someone whines that they cannot do their job and says that all the sudden the smell of their office gives them a headache, and new jobs are invented for them. This will not change, ever, unless the entire system on which it's founded is taken apart and repaired. It took decades of whining and lawsuits to get the system how it is, it doesn't just 'change' and won't ever just change.

In stupid things like ordering supplies, we are obligated to order from certain places first, regardless of the price. Example, we just got a new conference table.. it took 10 individuals to order this table, and it's taken 5 months, and that's just to get it ordered. it's still not been delivered. We paid over a thousand dollars more for the table than we would've just ordering it from office depot just to follow standard procedure, not to mention the labor we paid out to get it just so that we can hand lazy fucks worthless jobs.

If you think it's honestly as simple as 'oh just change this rule' you're badly mistaken. Everything takes years to do, and every extra year it takes costs multiple thousands of dollars just to support the years that it takes, not to mention what it takes to actually go through the process.

[Evermore]

arlos I was just going to respond but Yamori's response is damn close to mine so i'll save some typing.

[Evermore]

LOL...you think the government isn't a greedy corporation? It's the greediest one of all. At least a regular corporation can't skim a percentage of your wages right off the top.

Oh they can't huh? Tell that to the fucking insurance companies. Not only are we paying ridiculous amounts in taxes we also get to pay ridiculous amounts in insurance premiums which our TAX DOLLARS SHOULD BE COVERING.

You CAN opt out of insurance....you CAN'T opt out of taxes.

It may not be wise....but you CAN do it.

Westley Snipes is being sued by the government right now for not paying taxes. he claims the US government doesnt have the right to.

[Arlos]

How are you going to prosecute a company that followed all applicable environmental laws in its state?

1st amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with unions. 1st amendment is free speech. How does that apply to an independent non-government company that simply refuses to hire anyone with a union affiliation?

How about new pharmaceuticals? Who is going to approve or downcheck new medicines if the FDA is done away with? I guarantee you there will be states that will have laxer laws on that if given the chance than currently is the case with it run by the federal government. Then, even if 1 state has strict laws, you'll just have people driving to the next state over to buy the new stuff. The risks for that are enormous. Just go look up Thalidomide and what happened to mothers that took it while pregnant if you want to see the reasons for the need for draconian rules on new drug approval.

There's nothing specific Paul has said about the EPA, OSHA, the FDA, etc, no. But given that he has said he wants to shut down ALL federal agencies, apart from defense, that rather effectively includes the EPA, etc. does it not?

In any case, my point is that given the interconnected nature of the world today, there are large number of issues that MUST be handled at the federal level, because a patchwork approach would bring chaos. Furthermore, it is federal laws that hold corporations in check from the excesses of complete lassaiz-faire capitalism. We had that once, and we turned away from it because of its abuses. I don't wish to see us go back to it.

Don't get me wrong, there's a number of positions Paul has that I DO agree with. No foreign adventurism unless at the request of allies or the international community, no government mandated morality laws, an end to the "war on drugs", etc. etc. etc. The problem is, there are large segments of what he proposes that I do NOT agree with, for the reasons I've already stated, or because they would dismantle what I consider to be essential social safety nets.

Sure there's plenty that needs fixing at the federal level as far as streamlining the bureaucracy, etc. That is, however, been the case for all governments going back to the Romans.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

You CAN opt out of insurance....you CAN'T opt out of taxes.

It may not be wise....but you CAN do it.

Westley Snipes is being sued by the government right now for not paying taxes. he claims the US government doesnt have the right to.

People have tried that argument before and failed.

[Yamori]

Arlos:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Unions clearly fall under the 1st.

The current wrongs come from the fact that most unions are now legally entrenched. The law forces employers to deal with them, and often even forced employees to join them. Most unions are basically money-siphons moreso than a genuine boon to employees in the modern age, because they have improper legal backing and no real accountability to market forces anymore.

The wrongs of the past (1800s) came from the government literally disrupting unions with police and taking legal actions against them and the like.

It's a false dichotomy to say that it's a choice between unions and a land of robber barons. The third choice is simply having unions be 100% voluntary on all sides. They should be free to exist, people should be free to join (or not join) them, and employers should be free to deal with them or ignore them (obviously dealing with them will be the necessity for any specialized labor force).

[araby]

Workers that pay taxes all year (have it deducted from their income) are basically loaning the government money, interest free.

The Dr I work for is flying to Florida next month for a meeting (I'll get the name of it tomorrow) and my tax dollars cover his flight. Hm..couple families in North Charleston live in subsidized housing and six of their children recently robbed a store and did some property damage somewhere...my friend has Diabetes so she doesn't work, stays home and sleeps all day, collecting disability. Could go on and on..

[Gaazy]

Gyp and Arlos, I didnt know all that about vacation and shit. What a fucking joke. All their unused sick days carry over like that? And those countries get that much vacation time? What the fuck, thats pretty fucking ridiculous. Why in hell does anyone need THAT much time off. How does anyone get anything done?? I give 10 days vacation a year, and a few of those days are required days off, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July, so they really get 7 to choose from. Then a lot of the time the day before a holiday or after we'll just tell em to go home a half day early or whatever with pay. 3 paid sick days in there too but only with a doctors excuse are they paid for it. If you just dont happen to show up one day and plan on coming in the next and saying you were sick, without even calling that morning or the night before like some people think they can do, dont even bother showin up the next day.

[Narrock]

I didn't have time to watch this particular debate, but I heard excerpts from it on the radio. It was rather entertaining listening to the 3 stooges (or 2 stooges and 1 stoogette in this case) frothing at the mouth and jibber jabbing about stupid shit and taking personal jabs at each other.

[Evermore]

I didn't have time to watch this particular debate, but I heard excerpts from it on the radio. It was rather entertaining listening to the 3 stooges (or 2 stooges and 1 stoogette in this case) frothing at the mouth and jibber jabbing about stupid shit and taking personal jabs at each other.

yea it kida was like watching a recess yard arguement wasnt it