Romney OUT

[Gaazy]

Oddly enough, I could actually maybe live with Obama. He is the only one of any candidates, on either side, who lists investing in clean coal plants under their energy stuff, right along side with the alternative stuffs

[Arlos]

Well, as I said, I know you're not going to agree with him on social issues, like Abortion, just like you and I don't agree on that issue at all. I do think it's insane and reprehensible for people to use abortion as another form of birth control, but I also don't believe first-trimester barely differentiated fertilized zygotes are "people" and deserving of full human rights any more than a fertilized egg that happens to not lodge in the uterine wall and gets flushed out naturally are. Nor do I think that a rape victim or 12 year old girl molested by a family member should be forced to have their life further ruined by being forced to carry that fetus to term. But that's neither here nor there, and I am NOT trying to start an abortion argument with you, I'm just stating my position, and I know we will never agree. So, on that score, I can fully understand you not wanting to support the man. I don't think it's cause to insult him, however.

As for national issues, I think you're wrong on stuff there too. I think that, for the long term, pulling out of Iraq, or at the very least drastically scaling back, is the right thing to do. We as a nation simply cannot afford the costs of staying there, both social and monetary. The government there has proved they can't get a damn thing done, and we're throwing money there hand over fist, and ruining the army. Remember when we pulled out of Vietnam, there were all sorts of similar dire predictions, but what's the case 30 years later? We're back on good terms with them, and they're becoming an ever-larger trading partner.

In any case, the key to peace in the middle east is not in Iraq, it is in working out the israeli-palestinian conflict, which does NOT mean "Israel gets everything it wants, and impose their absolute will on the Palestinians". It means a COMPROMISE, in which both sides must give something. For example, I think what Israel is doing to the Gaza strip is insane. Average civilians aren't going to rise up and attack hamas militants any more than average citizens in the US rise up and get into gunfights with the Mafia. The sanctions have put 10s of thousands out of work, and left them with the ONLY place to get money to feed their families is from hamas, even further decreasing their chances of turning on them. Plus, since the militants HAVE lots of funding, plus routes to smuggle stuff in, they're not hurt by the sanctions at all.

Anyway, I think Obama has a better chance than just about anyone to be able to make a difference in the region, if for no other reason than he IS so different than Bush.

-Arlos

[KaiineTN]

Who is the enemy in Iraq that we are at war with? If not the government representing the country itself, we are not at war. War has to be declared against a country. Oh wait, this war is undeclared? Oh, it's okay then, we can stay as long as we want, occupying the territory aggressively with no realistic end. There will always be terrorists, and it's not the job of the US military to deal with them. The job of the military is to defend this country, and if necessary, take the fight to an aggressor and cripple them. Well, we've crippled Iraq, and it wasn't an aggressor, at least not against us, and not where most of the terrorists came from or were or are now. I don't understand this shit. Using the military to handle terrorists is like trying to kill a fly with a pickup truck. Overkill, and the fly will probably get away anyways. Wrong tool for the job.

You can't fucking go to war against terrorists. It's like declaring war against Asian martial artists, I mean, they can kill us with a single blow! Obviously a matter of national security that justifies invading and occupying all Asian countries! Just wait until we justify going into Iran because they're "harboring terrorists." Iran will do nothing to us, and we will invade.

I am much more afraid of our government than I am of any terrorist attacks.

[Zanchief]

You can't fucking go to war against terrorists. It's like declaring war against Asian martial artists, I mean, they can kill us with a single blow!

Well Flink made me laugh. I gotta give it up to him.

[Lyion]

Who is the enemy in Iraq that we are at war with?

That would be Al Qaeda and other fringe radical Islamic elements. Although you seem to not be keeping up with the news because the situation in Iraq is much better than it was earlier this year. Troops will be leaving and provinces are governing themselves. Afghanistan is the worry today.

If not the government representing the country itself, we are not at war. War has to be declared against a country. Oh wait, this war is undeclared? Oh, it's okay then, we can stay as long as we want, occupying the territory aggressively with no realistic end.

Congress had resolutions approved of a bipartisan nature for the Iraq War. Prior to that, President Clinton pushed for increased action before his wife became a political candidate and decided to appeal to the far left Berserkly types.

There will always be terrorists, and it's not the job of the US military to deal with them. The job of the military is to defend this country, and if necessary, take the fight to an aggressor and cripple them. Well, we've crippled Iraq, and it wasn't an aggressor, at least not against us, and not where most of the terrorists came from or were or are now. I don't understand this shit. Using the military to handle terrorists is like trying to kill a fly with a pickup truck. Overkill, and the fly will probably get away anyways. Wrong tool for the job.

Actually, that's exactly the job of the military. It's a shame you never served, but if you had you would've taken an oath to protect America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Agree or not, people much smarter than anyone here from both political parties deemed Iraq a threat.

Israel would also disagree with your premise here.

Granted, most here never served and have an outside 1000 foot view, but if you noticed Al Qaeda hasn't hit us here again.

You can't fucking go to war against terrorists. It's like declaring war against Asian martial artists, I mean, they can kill us with a single blow! Obviously a matter of national security that justifies invading and occupying all Asian countries! Just wait until we justify going into Iran because they're "harboring terrorists." Iran will do nothing to us, and we will invade.

I am much more afraid of our government than I am of any terrorist attacks.

[/quote]

Should we pull out of Afghanistan, also? Should we dissolve NATO?

Do you believe Iran will be benevolent if they are nuclear armed, given their history of declaring Jihad against many who offends their religious ideals?

The fact that you fear our government more than the terrorist tells me our intelligence agencies and military are doing whaqt they do best, and ensuring we can live free and democratic and believe the craziest things without actual real fear or concern.

[KaiineTN]

Who is the enemy in Iraq that we are at war with?

That would be Al Qaeda and other fringe radical Islamic elements. Although you seem to not be keeping up with the news because the situation in Iraq is much better than it was earlier this year. Troops will be leaving and provinces are governing themselves. Afghanistan is the worry today.

We don't need to be in Iraq or Afghanistan, or anywhere else.

There will always be terrorists, and it's not the job of the US military to deal with them. The job of the military is to defend this country, and if necessary, take the fight to an aggressor and cripple them. Well, we've crippled Iraq, and it wasn't an aggressor, at least not against us, and not where most of the terrorists came from or were or are now. I don't understand this shit. Using the military to handle terrorists is like trying to kill a fly with a pickup truck. Overkill, and the fly will probably get away anyways. Wrong tool for the job.

Actually, that's exactly the job of the military. It's a shame you never served, but if you had you would've taken an oath to protect America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Agree or not, people much smarter than anyone here from both political parties deemed Iraq a threat.

Israel would also disagree with your premise here.

Granted, most here never served and have an outside 1000 foot view, but if you noticed Al Qaeda hasn't hit us here again.

So you think it's the job of the military to chase terrorists around the world, just going into whatever country we want with full military force? It's okay because we're going after terrorists, and that's our job? That's absurd.

You know, I was in the Army for a short time, and fought my way out after being disgusted with seeing how it was run and how they treated people. I have no problems with the idea of defending this country, and I would gladly do it, if we were actually under attack. You can't go to war because of a threat. If I say I'm going to kick your ass, I'm a threat to you, but it doesn't justify you coming to my house and kicking my ass first. That makes you the aggressor, you're the bad guy, you're the one who throws the first punch. Now, if I show up at your house, looking pissed off holding a baseball bat, I'd say your action is justified. People have some seriously fucked up understandings of what protecting our nation means.

You can't fucking go to war against terrorists. It's like declaring war against Asian martial artists, I mean, they can kill us with a single blow! Obviously a matter of national security that justifies invading and occupying all Asian countries! Just wait until we justify going into Iran because they're "harboring terrorists." Iran will do nothing to us, and we will invade.

I am much more afraid of our government than I am of any terrorist attacks.

Should we pull out of Afghanistan, also? Should we dissolve NATO?

Do you believe Iran will be benevolent if they are nuclear armed, given their history of declaring Jihad against many who offends their religious ideals?

The fact that you fear our government more than the terrorist tells me our intelligence agencies and military are doing whaqt they do best, and ensuring we can live free and democratic and believe the craziest things without actual real fear or concern.

Yes, get out of Afghanistan. We should get out of NATO. Alliances drag us into any drama that other nations get involved in, and we need less of that. We get more than enough from our tv shows.

I believe that Iran will be reasonable if we begin treating them like a country populated by human beings that are equal to us in rights. Treat others as you would like to be treated is a principle that applies ot much more than individuals, it applies to groups, and even nations. It doesn't matter if they have nuclear weapons or not, do you honestly think they'd be stupid enough to use them? Then again, I kind of think McCain would be...

The fact that I fear our government, as do many other people, just goes to show how secretive and powerful our government has become! It no longer serves the people, it serves itself. People can be labeled an enemy combatant on a whim, and held indefinitely without the right to a trial. People can be spied on by the government. Where the hell have our rights gone? Sacrificing liberties for security is never the answer. The government should fear the people, and we're a long, long ways from that.

[Arlos]

I have no problem with us being in Afghanistan, because they were the country that harbored those who attacked us. The problem is, we bungled the job because Bush and the rest of the senior leadership were far too focused on Iraq and its oil reserves to send enough forces to Afghanistan to do a proper job. As a result, we never caught Osama, we never caught the senior Taliban leadership, and now the Taliban owns half the country again. Oh, and opium poppy production has skyrocketed.

Ultimately, invading Iraq has made this country LESS safe in the long run. We have possibly near-irrevocably damaged our reputation as a nation. Not to mention the hundreds of billions we've wasted, the tens of thousands of innocent civilians we've killed, how many families and lives we've destroyed, how many of our troops are dead or maimed for life, etc. etc. etc.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Wow, anyone else watch the Daily Show last night? Jon Stewart just savaged Romney, and for what seemed good reasons based on the clips. That was amazing.

-Arlos

[Evermore]

I have no problem with us being in Afghanistan, because they were the country that harbored those who attacked us. The problem is, we bungled the job because Bush and the rest of the senior leadership were far too focused on Iraq and its oil reserves to send enough forces to Afghanistan to do a proper job. As a result, we never caught Osama, we never caught the senior Taliban leadership, and now the Taliban owns half the country again. Oh, and opium poppy production has skyrocketed.

Ultimately, invading Iraq has made this country LESS safe in the long run. We have possibly near-irrevocably damaged our reputation as a nation. Not to mention the hundreds of billions we've wasted, the tens of thousands of innocent civilians we've killed, how many families and lives we've destroyed, how many of our troops are dead or maimed for life, etc. etc. etc.

-Arlos

But Bush's buddies are making TONS of money. Didn't Exxon just post record profits again? THe news report i heard said they are the highest quarterly in history for any company


http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

[Evermore]

The fact that you fear our government more than the terrorist tells me our intelligence agencies and military are doing whaqt they do best, and ensuring we can live free and democratic and believe the craziest things without actual real fear or concern.

this sounds a bit contradictory to me.

[Lyion]

Yes, get out of Afghanistan. We should get out of NATO. Alliances drag us into any drama that other nations get involved in, and we need less of that. We get more than enough from our tv shows.

I believe that Iran will be reasonable if we begin treating them like a country populated by human beings that are equal to us in rights. Treat others as you would like to be treated is a principle that applies ot much more than individuals, it applies to groups, and even nations. It doesn't matter if they have nuclear weapons or not, do you honestly think they'd be stupid enough to use them? Then again, I kind of think McCain would be...

Interesting. Do you think we were wrong to get involved in the first gulf war?

By the premise of this logic, we also were wrong to get involved in World War I. Please explain if you don't think that was a bad idea, also, since your above logic indicates such.

[KaiineTN]

I'm no expert on wars/history, but didn't we not get involved in WWI for the first couple years of it? Why bother getting involved at all? Why was it necessary for us to be at war? There were plenty of other countries that were capable of going that did not, why didn't they? So why did we?

I also don't think it was necessary, or constitutional, to get involved in the Gulf War. Other Arab countries didn't want Saddam in Kuwait either. They would have teamed up and done something about it. But hey, why should anyone take care of themselves, their own regions, when the United States will send its big powerful military over to handle the job and give them money at the same time?

Please explain to me how sending our military in after Iraq invaded Kuwait had anything to do with protecting this country from attack, as that is the only way I can possibly accept a war being justified. Threats don't count.

[Eziekial]

Lyion, I don't know what branch you served in but everytime i've given the oath it's to support and defend the [b]CONSTITUTION[/b] of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Sorry, as a current officer in the US Navy, I can assure you, that no force is capable of destroying the US except ourselves. No other nation let alone a religous group outside of Russia (they still have more than enough nukes to destoy the earth) can hope to invade this country and win. NO ONE. Period. End of story. All this talk about Jihad and Islamic extremists is just fearmongering to keep the citizens of our great country in check. The true danger comes from within and the only thing that will bring this great country down will be an economic collapse. We don't live in a perfect world and there will always be terrorists, nut-jobs, drunk drivers, you name it. life has risks and people need to accept that. We have a great thing going here because we are free. We believe in inalienable rights (well, we use to anyway) and this country is so great because we are free and don't try to limit liberty under the guise of safety. BUt that is in jeapordy today. The Patriot Act, the warrentless wiretaping, the suspension of Habeus Corpus for "enemy combatants" all that shit is destroying the very foundation that made us great. All of that shit is from within our wall, from within our very capitol. That is the true danger. Once we've lost our liberty, my uniform loses all meaning.

[Evermore]

Lyion, I don't know what branch you served in but everytime i've given the oath it's to support and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Sorry, as a current officer in the US Navy, I can assure you, that no force is capable of destroying the US except ourselves. No other nation let alone a religous group outside of Russia (they still have more than enough nukes to destoy the earth) can hope to invade this country and win. NO ONE. Period. End of story. All this talk about Jihad and Islamic extremists is just fearmongering to keep the citizens of our great country in check. The true danger comes from within and the only thing that will bring this great country down will be an economic collapse. We don't live in a perfect world and there will always be terrorists, nut-jobs, drunk drivers, you name it. life has risks and people need to accept that. We have a great thing going here because we are free. We believe in inalienable rights (well, we use to anyway) and this country is so great because we are free and don't try to limit liberty under the guise of safety. BUt that is in jeapordy today. The Patriot Act, the warrentless wiretaping, the suspension of Habeus Corpus for "enemy combatants" all that shit is destroying the very foundation that made us great. All of that shit is from within our wall, from within our very capitol. That is the true danger. Once we've lost our liberty, my uniform loses all meaning.

Very nicely put Zeek and dead on also

[Lyion]

The constitution equates the law and government of our country. The oath is about supporting such. It is not about guarding the document or solely abiding by the amendments. Do you actually understand this, Ez?

While you may not see the big picture, or agree with the premise of actions taken, those have been done in the interests of safety and security of the country. If you disagree, or don't like the way the constitution is worded, you've chosen an interesting field of work. You also give political talking points, which makes me sad, but unfortunately many have bought into the hyperbole and could care less about truth. This is the way it is in so many things in our country....

There are a lot of countries we vastly disagree with on policy, but the reason we went to war with Iraq had to do moreso with the potential of further harm due to imminent threat. You may figure a lone Islamic terrorist with a suitcase nuke is not a big deal, but personally I'd rather not see one of our cities with a mushroom cloud blooming overhead. This threat and scenario was repeated by both members of congress and agreed on, which is why we did what we did. The fact so many are lying regarding this and promoting a revisionist history is not only comical, it shows a severe lack of truth and an allegiance to party over principle.

This is not fear mongering, but the simple truth of things that are occuring now. The reason terrorist attacks are limited is due to their weaponry and capabilities being limited. It is due to intelligence which monitors Al Qaeda strongholds overseas, which some want to go through judicial channels, but most American's do not for the simple common sense reasonings put forward by most courts, and due to the fact it is legal and smart.

Your wrongful portrayal of the Patriot Act is sole propaganda and ignores the actual facts on the ground or the truths of what is occurring in the FISA court, and within the intelligence fields. It also has oversight.

I agree that the true danger comes from within, but to me it comes from those who don't care to see the big picture and are more worried about political gain or misinformation in relation to activities going on, and some false rhetorical conspiracy theory grounded in BDS, instead of the simple facts of what is occurring now.

Flink, I can't really debate you since you seem to support complete non interventionalism. I disagree and think if we follow that path and ignore the plights of our friends and allies and those being persecuted world wide we'll turn the world into a bigger toilet than it already is.

[Eziekial]

I understand the document, Lyion and I'm sorry I took that shot at you. I was trying to make a point about your theory of taking the fight to possible enemies not personally attack you nor your service to this country.

It is my opinion, that the theory of aways being on the offense rather then just having a solid defense, leads to the inevitable destruction of civil liberties of the citizens supporting that offensive. We are doomed to repeat history if we don't learn from it and all great civilizations have falled due to their constant warring and empire building. This theory of "get them before they get us" has been tried many times before. The notion that we are any better then those who tried before us is hallow. I don't have a problem with war. I've committed my life to defending the principles of freedom. I serve to keep people free,Lyion. I don't serve to keep you safe. Maybe I'm wrong in that. But even if tomorrow sees DC go up in a mushroom cloud and the paper that is our constitution burns, I will still believe that you and everyone on this earth has those rights and will continue to fight so you can be free.

[araby]

I think every president should be required to read The Art of War by Sun Tzu.

[ClakarEQ]

Sorry, as a current officer in the US Navy, I can assure you, that no force is capable of destroying the US except ourselves. No other nation let alone a religous group outside of Russia (they still have more than enough nukes to destoy the earth) can hope to invade this country and win. NO ONE. Period. End of story. All this talk about Jihad and Islamic extremists is just fearmongering to keep the citizens of our great country in check. The true danger comes from within and the only thing that will bring this great country down will be an economic collapse. We don't live in a perfect world and there will always be terrorists, nut-jobs, drunk drivers, you name it. life has risks and people need to accept that. We have a great thing going here because we are free. We believe in inalienable rights (well, we use to anyway) and this country is so great because we are free and don't try to limit liberty under the guise of safety. BUt that is in jeapordy today. The Patriot Act, the warrentless wiretaping, the suspension of Habeus Corpus for "enemy combatants" all that shit is destroying the very foundation that made us great. All of that shit is from within our wall, from within our very capitol. That is the true danger. Once we've lost our liberty, my uniform loses all meaning.

/cheer Ez, great post man!

[Naethyn]

Lyion please list the events that must occur before we can make a 100% troop withdrawal from Iraq.

A. Saddam loses power.

B. Iraqi government is solid and has control of the region.

Am I missing anything?

[KaiineTN]

Flink, I can't really debate you since you seem to support complete non interventionalism. I disagree and think if we follow that path and ignore the plights of our friends and allies and those being persecuted world wide we'll turn the world into a bigger toilet than it already is.

You know, we can "intervene" with influence rather than military action, too. Do you really think we need to spend close to 1 trillion dollars a year on our foreign policy? Do you really think we need bases all around the world, and that we should give out money to everyone? We shouldn't ignore the plights of our friends, we should let them take care of their own problems. We shouldn't be allies with anyone. Friends with all, allies with none.

It amuses me to no end when in debates I hear McCain talking about cutting pork barrel spending, 30 billion dollars! What the hell is 30 billion compared to 1 trillion? It's ridiculous. Why are people so reluctant to even consider ending our world empire? The world went along just fine after the Roman empire collapsed. The world went along just fine after the British empire collapsed. The world will go along just fine once we do as well, and we will, and I'm certain it will be in my lifetime, and that I will be paying the price for your oh-so-necessary century of intervention. I'm for cutting a lot of that spending, but just imagine what we could do if we didn't, and focused all of it in this country instead. Think of what we could do... We could easily fund universal healthcare, fund all sorts of education programs, redo our infrastructure, equip our military with the latest technologies, etc., you can do a ridiculous amount of good for this country with 1 trillion dollars. Compared to how much "good" we're doing in the world with that 1 trillion, I know where I'd rather see that money being spent.

I want to see America respected and admired for what it stands for, not feared for its bullying and hated for its superiority complex.

[Minrott]

Think of what we could do... We could easily fund universal healthcare, fund all sorts of education programs, redo our infrastructure, equip our military with the latest technologies, etc., you can do a ridiculous amount of good for this country with 1 trillion dollars

Ugh. Couldn't we just pay down the debt with it, rather than spending more money that we don't have, on programs that we don't need?

[Lyion]

Lyion please list the events that must occur before we can make a 100% troop withdrawal from Iraq.

A. Saddam loses power.

B. Iraqi government is solid and has control of the region.

Am I missing anything?

Our goal is for Iraq to be able to provide security for itself and not turn into a taliban-ish Al Qaeda controlled state. This is starting to happen and we are already starting to remove troops, and will bring more home. many provinces have reverted to Iraqi control, and they are currently self governed.

Why are you so worried about troop withdrawals? We have troops all over the world. It's interesting you don't mention them.

Unless Saddam has returned in Lich Form, I'm not sure if you're just watching too much Keith Olbermann or you had an actual valid point.

[Zanchief]

Lich Form Saddam would be crazy. He could use his chemical weapons and never have to make any fort saves.

[Harrison]

Isolationism doesn't work.

[KaiineTN]

Think of what we could do... We could easily fund universal healthcare, fund all sorts of education programs, redo our infrastructure, equip our military with the latest technologies, etc., you can do a ridiculous amount of good for this country with 1 trillion dollars

Ugh. Couldn't we just pay down the debt with it, rather than spending more money that we don't have, on programs that we don't need?

That's what I'd prefer, but, even though I am a small government/less spending/less tax type, I am in favor of some form of universal healthcare (probably state-run). Not because I think healthcare is a right, just because I think that it will work out to be the most cost efficient system for everyone.

Isolationism doesn't work.

I agree.