Oil at 109/barrel

[Lyion]

Ouch.

[Reynaldo]

Doesn't it make you all warm and tingly that oil companies are posting record profits again while the rest of us are sliding into recession (if not already there)?

[Evermore]

Nah this war isnt about Oil.

[Arlos]

I just love how the Oil companies, in spite of those incredible record profits, continue to argue that they deserve special tax breaks too...

From what I read on a financial site a couple days ago tho, is part of the problem is commodities traders. People have no confidence right now in the stock market, so they're pouring money into tangible commodities. As demand rises, with the same supply, inevitably the prices go up.

That seems to be resulting in a pretty nasty feedback loop, that I'm not sure what we can do to fix: High oil prices slow the economy down and increase recession fears. Slowed economy & recession fears drive people away from the stock market, and into commodities. Increased commodities buying raises oil prices, further slowing the economy and increasing recession fears, driving more people away from the stock market....

<insert standard appeal to crash-ramp-up biodiesel production to at least wean us off the need to import/use diesel, thus hopefully lowering overall prices here>

-Arlos

[Naethyn]

Oil should be treated just like electricity. Government regulated monopoly. Oil is a necessity.

[Arlos]

<in before right winger posts calling you a communist or socialist for daring to desire to interfere with the free market>

-Arlos

[Reynaldo]

I have no problem with the oil companies making money. Where I draw the line is at the word *record* followed by profit.

I was actually shocked to read that there were tax breaks for oil companies and is something I agree with the Dem stance on repealing those. I'm sure that would just give them an excuse to strangle us with $6 a gallon gas saying they can't feed their families unless they jack up prices (like that NBA clothing debacle a couple years ago).

Tax breaks and record profits don't seem to belong in the same sentence.

[Tikker]

I guess it's a good thing that our oil reserves are enormous and the worlds biggest consumer is just a couple miles away

[Tuggan]

it's not such a good thing that were also the biggest bully. it'll be alot cheaper to take you guys over than it was iraq.

[Tikker]

don't make us burn your white house down


again

[Tuggan]

please do, just try to make sure you got the guy in charge inside this time around.

[Narrock]

The U.S. should annex Canada and Mexico.

[Tossica]

The U.S. should annex Canada and Mexico.

The US should Annex YOU!

[Narrock]

Open the borders between Canada and the U.S., and Mexico and the U.S. Then rename it Canamexico, or Amexicanada or something.

[Harrison]

Or how about, America?

Since it's just North, Central, and South America...

[Lyion]

Oil should be treated just like electricity. Government regulated monopoly. Oil is a necessity.

Except electricity isn't run or overregulated by the government. Where in the world did you hear that?

The problem with oil is even if the government ran it, the price would still be set by foreign speculators, which is our current problem since there is no supply and demand problem. You pay more in taxes for gas than the oil companies make in profits, also.

A bigger issue is the fact we have no new refineries.

[Arlos]

How can our problem be lack of refineries if you just said that supply wasn't an issue? If a lack of refining capacity was really the problem, the price of crude would be holding steady and the price of refined product would be spiking. Since that manifestly is not the case, it can't be refining capacity that's causing the price run-up.

Likewise, there are no individual taxes whatsoever on crude, only on the final product. Individual gas stations aren't where the gas companies are making their profits. Gas stations run barely in the black for the most part, and have no control over the price at which they buy their gas from their parent company. Sure, there's some gouging there, no doubt, but the biggest portion of the profits are coming from selling the raw stuff. As of 1989, it cost US companies about $5 a barrel to produce the stuff. Best data I can find for nowadays is that the MOST expensive oil to produce tops out at about $25 a barrel to produce.

If you can produce something for $20-25 a barrel and sell it for $100, it's not exactly surprising that profit margins have exploded irrespective of local gas stations, yes?

-Arlos

[Naethyn]

Electricity companies cannot set any price they wish. They are regulated by the government.

[Lyion]

How can our problem be lack of refineries if you just said that supply wasn't an issue? If a lack of refining capacity was really the problem, the price of crude would be holding steady and the price of refined product would be spiking. Since that manifestly is not the case, it can't be refining capacity that's causing the price run-up.

Some of the run up to 109 was due to refining issues and the lack of extra refining capability. We have had no new ones in 30 years. When they do maintenance or when one goes down it effects flow and causes prices to increase overall.

Likewise, there are no individual taxes whatsoever on crude, only on the final product. Individual gas stations aren't where the gas companies are making their profits. Gas stations run barely in the black for the most part, and have no control over the price at which they buy their gas from their parent company. Sure, there's some gouging there, no doubt, but the biggest portion of the profits are coming from selling the raw stuff. As of 1989, it cost US companies about $5 a barrel to produce the stuff. Best data I can find for nowadays is that the MOST expensive oil to produce tops out at about $25 a barrel to produce.

Consumers do not buy crude. They buy gas, generally.

Gas stations generally make very little on their gas and the price is set from the base costs and the tax, yes. The tax is higher than the oil company profits, however, and the parent companies profits are static and based on the market. If Exxon is buying oil for 109/barrel from Saudi, they are not getting it for 25/barrel as you are saying.

Most oil is bought from Canada, Mexico, Saudi, etc. We don't drill in ANWR or really almost anywhere our domestic operations do not come close to providing even 1/2 the oil we use.

If you can produce something for $20-25 a barrel and sell it for $100, it's not exactly surprising that profit margins have exploded irrespective of local gas stations, yes?

No. Again, they are buying, refining, and selling. They are not producing most of the oil.

Its cyclical. Before, gas hit 12 dollars a barrel and oil companies were losing their shirts. Go back to 1979 and we had the same situation as today.

The price is run by speculation which is not handled by oil companies, but by the markets. Much of the price is due to the weak dollar, but also due to additional factors such as China and India consumption which has created an oil bubble. Speculation is the bigger problem, and the rampant corruption from this which is causing artificially inflated prices due to long term projections instead of price based on real fundamentals. I would love to see some sort of intervention, but unfortunately there is little we can, especially since we prefer not to get our own oil, and promote idiotic subsidies, like ethanol from corn which does nothing but cost us a lot more money.

Also, Iraq has nothing to do with oil prices, as it is sending a consistent large amount of oil to the market with revenues going to that country. Its oil sales are actually up.

Naethyn, the federal government does not set electricity prices. I suggest you investigate companies like Duke Power and TVA and see how prices are really set, and the fact the Fed does not control it.

[Tikker]

How can our problem be lack of refineries if you just said that supply wasn't an issue?

this comes up in canada a LOT

the issue is that the cartels keep the number of refineries artifically low so that when one of them is down for repair, or whatever, they can claim it's affecting production, and jack rates up

in canada, there's 29 active refineries, and 30 have been closed since 1970~

the last "new" refinery was commissioned in alberta in 1984ish (maybe 85)

[ClakarEQ]

My understanding of this issue is less to do with real "issues" and more to do with the lack of value in the dollar (i.e not about refiners or how much oil is pumped from the ground, etc)

Oil is traded in USD, USD is worth shit and less.

In order to compensate for the fall of the USD, value of USD traded commodities must go up.

IMO we still don't pay enough, we need to pay so much that new technologies are implemented, not just talked about, yeah I know, maybe a few years, 2010 and such, "maybe".

Just to throw in a prediction, I suspect we'll be paying close to 5.00 a gallon by mid summer, some folks think even more.

Until the folks with deep pockets and big money realize that stocks are so low that it is a good deal to buy, we will not stop our downward spiral

All that refinery and OPEC talk is smoke in mirrors BS (IMO). The fact is, our dollar is not worth the paper it's printed on.

[Arlos]

All the bitching and moaning about lack of refineries is just that, nothing more than empty bitching and moaning. Think about how much clout the gas companies have had with Bush Sr and especially W, double especially while the Republicans ran congress. Compare that to the lack of influence of environmental groups. If a gas company had REALLY wanted to build a new refinery, they could have and would have. None even tried.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

All the bitching and moaning about lack of refineries is just that, nothing more than empty bitching and moaning. Think about how much clout the gas companies have had with Bush Sr and especially W, double especially while the Republicans ran congress. Compare that to the lack of influence of environmental groups. If a gas company had REALLY wanted to build a new refinery, they could have and would have. None even tried.

-Arlos

do you even bother to read people's posts?

it's got nothing to do with the president

what incentive to the companies have to build refineries?

[Arlos]

I was agreeing with you, you twat.

Lyion has, for a long time now, claimed that it's all the fault of those evil environmentalists that have prevented the altruistic oil companies from building new refineries.

My point was that that was complete bullshit, that the oil companies obviously had no interest in building new refineries, as proven by the fact that had they wanted to, they COULD have, given their political clout.

Ergo, they haven't wanted to, which is in complete agreement with your previous post.

Try for some reading comprehension next time, K?

-Arlos

[Tikker]

hrm

for once you're right~