NATO and Russia

[ClakarEQ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26331771/

Ok so this can't be going to good places

[Evermore]

Eagle and the Bear...


Time for the Rapture?

[brinstar]

okay is it just me or is it georgia that are the shitheads here

georgia starts shit, gets wtfpwnd and screams bloody murder, so the rest of the world comes down hard on russia? i am sure there is plenty i don't understand but from the bits i have read that seems to be the case

[Tikker]

didn't you know that you guys painted russians as the bad guys, and that isn't allowed to change?

[brinstar]

not me man i think russia is

[Diekan]

Georgia is a sovereign country with it's own government. Russia INVADED it. It is the same as if Russia invaded England or Germany. Russia has no business in there, period. Do we need to send US troops? Well, I personally don't want to get involved with something that would certainly turn into WW III - however Georgia is one of our allies. It's a tough call.

Russia is no "Republican Guard" - it would be a nasty and very bloody war.

Right now we're too far spread out with Iraq and Afg to really get involved.

And, no Russia is not cool - only someone completely clueless would think that.

If NATO is getting involved then you know it's serious and you know Russia's actions are not cool with the rest of the industrialized world (well most of it anyway).

[Arlos]

Except that Russia only invaded after Georgia first sent troops into South Ossetia, where they had promised to stay out of. Georgia made the first move, they just completely miscalculated Russia's countermove.

Basically, Russia is pissed as hell about a lot of the stuff the US has been doing under Bush's watch. The missile defense pact with former eastern bloc countries (this in particular has them furious), expansion of NATO to former satellite states, etc. A lot of their high command views that NATO expansion as an act of aggression by the US, ringing Russia with hostile territories. They also remember quite well when they WERE the "other" superpower, and have been getting annoyed at being treated as a 3rd-rate nobody for the last decade.

What Russia's response to what Georgia did has reminded everyone that Russia is not to be trifled with or ignored, and that they are not tolerant of NATO expanding into it's back yard like that. There is NO way that the European NATO members will ever vote to add Georgia to NATO now, not when it means they might have to go to war with Russia to defend it if Georgia gets stupid again. Russia's army is huge, AND the majority of the oil & natural gas that Western Europe uses to run on get there via pipelines through Russia that it could cut off if it got sufficiently pissed.

Furthermore, there is NO way anything gets done about Iran and uranium enrichment without Russia being an active partner. They have veto power in the Security Council, can stop or scrap any sanctions, and have a multi-billion dollar arms package to Iran already negotiated, just waiting for the sanctions to lift. Russia decides to scrap the sanctions, and suddenly Iran has brand new modern arms, including SAMs and anti-tank missiles. Oh yeah, that's a great result.

Putin has sent a very clear message here. One that Europe has definitely heard, even if Bush's administration is oblivious. The next administration is going to need to tread very carefully with Russia if we want to re-establish anything like close relations, which is imperative we do out of our own self interests. I highly doubt War Hawk McCain is capable of any such thing. Honestly, I'm worried if he's elected and gets to decide policy towards the Russians, we may well see at least a partial return to the Cold War.

-Arlos

[Drem]

And, no Russia is not cool - only someone completely clueless would think that.

/yawn

There's more to a country than politics. I'm not a supporter of Russia's political state in any way, but that country is pretty incredible in terms of its history (excluding soviet era), culture, and people. It's a lot cooler than you are

[Lueyen]

Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, which is internationally recognized as being part of Georgia. The problem is that the majority of people in South Ossetia are of either Russian decent, or citizens of Russia (dual citizenship). South Ossetia has petitioned to be recognized as it's own state, but that did not go through. U.N. peace keepers (predominantly Russian) soldiers were stationed in South Ossetia due to the tensions there. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia supposedly as a response to Russian meddling, what exactly that means is hard to tell. I've read accounts that Russian aircraft flew over Georgia airspace, and of Russia attempting to undermine the government of Georgia. While I believe there is something to it, the lack of specifics suggests to me that Georgia went overboard in it's response. That being said Russia sending military forces into South Ossetia I could see as justifiable even though technically Georgia did not strike outside of it's own borders, attacks outside of South Ossetia however are also beyond a measured response.

There is no doubt Russia wants to keep former Soviet block nations under it's thumb, and I'm sure they are playing games, but that doesn't mean the leadership of Georgia are angels either, and I think this was the majority of the reason for Georgia being turned down by NATO for the time being. Of course if Georgia had become a NATO member, and been the recipient of missile defense systems, Russia would have had that to contend with also. It seems insane that any country would take issue with defensive weapons of this nature, unless they wanted to keep aggressive actions as a possibility. Russia has now made it clear that this is the case, if it wasn't completely clear before.

Personally I think we are already seeing a partial return to the Cold War. I think it would have been in everyones best interest to allow the succession of South Ossetia. Perhaps that is ignorant of me, but there was a lot of chaos with the fall of the former Soviet Union, and while the Soviet Union may have held things together, I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that there would be issues of this nature in the newly formed countries.

While we do need to work with Russia, we also should not kowtow to it either. Condemning their continued aggression, giving humanitarian aid to Georgia, and putting diplomatic pressure on Russia to cease it's attacks is the appropriate measured response, and unless these completely fail I wouldn't even consider the commitment of military force in our best interest, nor really in that of Georgia.

It will be interesting to see the future for Georgia in regards to NATO, and while this might curtail Georgia becoming a member (in some part based on the Russian threat, but also in Georgia's own actions) it may very well accelerate Ukraine which was also denied NATO membership until some later date.

[Arlos]

Honestly, I think it's gonna kill Ukraine's membership chances too. NONE of the major western European powers want to tie themselves with ironclad treaties that bind them to go to the defense of a country Russia still looms over like it does it's adjacent former states. They have way way too much to lose if the shit hits the fan. Far more than we do.

As for the missile defense systems, how would the US react if Russia were to sign a military pact with Cuba to base tons of troops there, including anti-missile systems? We'd have a shit fit and a half. I just thank the gods that the recent Izvestia report about Russia responding to the missile defense treaty by basing nuclear bombers in Cuba seems to be turning out to be a hoax. Just the fact that they'd even DISCUSS it though should give a very clear warning as to just how pissed they are about it.

No, we shouldn't kowtow to Russia, but we can't keep trying to marginalize them and ignore their diplomatic concerns either.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

didn't you know that you guys painted russians as the bad guys, and that isn't allowed to change?

That was James Bond.

[Zanchief]

I think it's pretty funny hearing the Bush administration talk about how no country should invade another. It's like they don't even know how clueless they are.

Russian had a far greater justification to invade Georgia than the US did to invade Iraq.

[Evermore]

Fcuk both of them

[Ganzo]

It is hilarious how US spins everything. How come to this day we not seen footage of Tchinvali? Georgians used "grad" missiles to level this city before Russia intervened, there's maybe 50 Georgian civilians that were killed during this conflict, but there are over 1500 Ossetian civilians that were slaughtered during first day of Georgian attack. That's is however not convenient to report.

Just on a side note, a brief history lesson: some 200 years ago during "The Great Game" Russian Empire invaded Caucasian kingdoms. In the area they conquered an joined into Russian Empire kingdoms of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Abhazia, Ossetia, Cherkessia(Chechnya). In early 1920's after Bolsheviks took control of Russia, they expanded and "joined" Caucasian area into USSR. During Stalin's rule, the idea was to eliminate Nationalism so a lot of old territories were divided into sections and formed into "republics". Ossetia was split into two parts, one along with Chechnya was added to Russian Federal Republic, other with Abhazia was added to Georgian Republic(Stalin's birth place).

Fast forward to 1991 fall of Soviet Union. Shevarnadze, the communist head of Georgian Republic, declares independence form USSR, same time South Ossetia an Abhazia declare separation from Georgia. Georgia refuses an civil war starts. Finally Russia brings in peacekeepers and there is cease fire. Both South Ossetia an Abhazia elect their own governments and continue to run their own countries. Few month ago NATO mentions to Georgia that only country with "defined borders" can join, and Georgia decides to use force. Result is what we have now. Looking at this I still do not see how Ossetia or Abhazia are Georgian territory?

[Drem]

Thanks Ganzo for shedding light. I talked about this earlier in a different thread and brought up how the attack left near 2k Ossetians dead... and the US somehow can say it's all Russia's fault and Russia needs to pull out immediately etc etc.... I'm just surprised so many Americans can still believe our media when everyone in the world constantly criticizes us for how backwards and fucked-up it is

[Tuggan]

Were bored with hating on the middle east already, the Russians kept us occupied for quite awhile. So why not go back to the old reliable source of discontent? Distracted Americans make for happy billionaires, especially if we can privatize every "conflict". Being at odds with Russia will keep everyone busy for years to come until we can be the country that sinks our own economy this time around. All this posturing will only have one definate outcome, I can't wait for cold war v2.0

[Arlos]

*female voice*Prime Minister's office. Prime Minister speaking.

*Male voice*Greetings:This is the Secretary of War at the State Department
of the United States

*fv moans*

We have a problem.

*short moan*

The companies want something done about this sluggish
world economic situation
Profits have been running a little thin lately
and we need to stimulate some growth

*moans*

Now we know
there's an alarmingly high number of young people roaming
around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble
for the police and damage private property.

*moans*

It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job
It's about time we did something constructive with these people
We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over
The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together-
And start another war

*loud moans*

The President?
He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro
Napalm
People running down the road, skin on fire

*more moaning*

The Soviets seem up for it:
The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years.
Want a little going-away party for Mr. Breszhnev.

*moaning*

Hell, Afghanistan's no fun
So whadya say?

*loud moaning*

We don't even have to win this war.
We just want to cut down on some of this excess population

*moans*

Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can.
We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on,
hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use
an automatic rifle and send 'em on their way
Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland?
Or a "moderately repressive regime" in South America?
We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story
in the Middle East-we need that oil
We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafi's hit squad

*constant moaning*

didn't even show up. I tell ya
That man is unreliable.
The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one

*continual moaning*

Now just think for a minute-We can make this war so big-so BIG
The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper
We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queue if we plan this right.
Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls

*moaning continues*

Now don't worry about demonstrations-just pump up your drug supply.
So many people have hooked themselves on heroin
and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam.
We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong.
Kept the war functioning just fine
It's easy.
We've got our college kids so interested in beer
they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again.
Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard,
they wouldn't even know what it looked like
So how 'bout it? Look-War is money.
The arms manufacturers tell me unless
we get our bomb factories up to full production
the whole economy is going to collapse
The Soviets are in the same boat.
We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?

*moaning ends. Female voice* Ohhh, sounds marvelous.

That's excellent. We knew you'd agree
The companies will be very pleased.

Over 20 years old, that song. Funny how little things change when you let the Hawks run things...

-Arlos

[Tikker]

nono, you must have read it wrong

the USA has ALWAYS been at war with Russia


now go back to drinking your liter of vodka

[Tuggan]

haha, i'm going to have to bust out the dead kennedys now.

[brinstar]

nono, you must have read it wrong

the USA has ALWAYS been at war with Russia


now go back to drinking your liter of vodka

will do!

[Arlos]

Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with Eurasia and allied with Eastasia.

You wouldn't disagree with the Minitruth, would you?

-Arlos

[brinstar]

i am created more equal than you

[Harrison]

Two legs is better than four.

[Lueyen]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4635843.ece