I might have just chosen a side

[KaiineTN]

Pro-war meaning, what, exactly?

That's a very broad term.

Pro this war? Very specific.

McCain is on record for being "pro-war". He has said things regarding the draft, he has mentioned we should do more in the world with our military, etc. No I don't have exact quotes but I know some of it is in one of his books along with others being said at interviews. He IMO appears to be the type to fight and then go political, that of course being the wrong thing to do.

McCain is eager to use force. He isn't a very diplomatic type. He isn't the kind of person you want to have in power if you want to be safe and secure, because his use of force will only make Americans as a whole more hated around the world. If this was Star Wars, we'd be the damn Empire.

[ClakarEQ]

yet he'll win regardless. To show you what I mean. Just had lunch with one of my guys, started talking politics, asked if he knew who he favored, he said McCain. I asked why, he said did you see his milf of a VP? Her speach was great. I said o rly? did you see obama's speach, no he says. I say to him, I alwasy thought of you as a liberal type, he said, what? not sure I know what you mean.

So I dug a bit more and asked if he knew of anything mccain stood for, No he says, not really.

I am not someone to change his mind although I made some points of why I don't like mccain and why I prefer obama but also agree neither is "good", just one of a lesser evil. I asked he take an hour or two and review online what each person stands for and instead of making the call with your dick, make it with your brain.

Now, this is a 30something, white collar, white man, makes good money, IMO rather typical person, making an important choice because there is a milf on the ticket. What is striking, he isn't stupid, he is actually a really smart fellow, just doesn't follow politics, yet was making a choice on visuals alone.

I'm glad my boys won't be of age when mccain finishs his 4 years. If he goes 8 and he is the "same" man, I'll call Tikker my new countrymate

[Gypsiyee]

I have MAJOR problems with a government wanting to disarm its populace A LA Middle Ages and serfdom under the guise of a republic.

and as another example to kind of go on the same lines, I have major problems with anyone who will tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body (especially in the event of rape) based on their religious views.

I disagree with you about the draft - imo, based on my own family and friends, the draft was one of the worst things we ever did to this country. People need to wake up, but a draft is not what's going to do it. Forcing someone into service and into risking their lives for something they do not support will never have a positive result.

I think the most important thing, Harrison, is that you're not basing your vote on one single issue. Pick a handful of things that you hold most valuable, and weigh them. I imagine your gun is not the most important thing in your life; at least I hope it isn't. In the grand scheme of things, your right to bear arms isn't going to change anytime soon. So, as far as the big picture goes, the interest in guns is about as relevant as my interest in having a woman in the white house: when you consider all the other things at stake, I'll pass on "girl power" when the best we can get is Mooseilini.

[Drem]

People need to wake up, but a draft is not what's going to do it.

We should be drafting people to join the Peace Corps to make a real difference in the world

This country is fucked np

[ClakarEQ]

side bar- drem are you a Detroiter or u just like the tigers?

[Harrison]

I didn't say they had to go into combat when drafted, just out of their little fucking comfort bubble for a while.

[Drem]

side bar- drem are you a Detroiter or u just like the tigers?

nope i was born in northridge los angeles and live in oregon now. just like the tigers since oregon doesn't have a team

[araby]

Yes! I read that Bob Barr asked Ron Paul to be his running mate. I can't wait to hear his decision.

[brinstar]

man i hope there isn't a draft any time soon

get your crapsack off the WoW and back in school and you won't have to worry

[araby]

I don't think he'll consider it. Barr is treacherous. Ron Paul should've run on the Libertarian Ticket. In my opinion, a vote for the Republican or Democratic party is a vote for an empire. Third party is our only hope, but with Barr sabotaging Paul's attempt to unite the third parties, he'll never get my support. And I doubt, the support of Ron Paul.

Ron Paul for Conservative Party, please.

[Lueyen]

Yes! I read that Bob Barr asked Ron Paul to be his running mate. I can't wait to hear his decision.

That ticket would be upside down imho. At this point I'm leaning toward voting for Ron Paul. I think Barr needs to unequivocally set the record strait regarding his ex-wife's abortion and his involvement if any. He takes very pro-life political positions, great, but I have more respect for someone who takes pro baby murder positions but would not do it themselves then with someone who will kill their own child.

[Gypsiyee]

someone who takes pro baby murder positions

was this really necessary? are you seriously trying to just be combative?

seriously, man - you have no idea if there are people on this board who were faced with that terrible position and having to choose. I'm not one of them, but that's a really insensitive and rude way to put it, and until you have to personally endure that torture, you should probably refrain from being so boisterous about your holier than thou stance on it.

[ClakarEQ]

He has the right to his opinion but that begs the question, how many pro-life folks have actually had to choose or make that type of choice, I bet less than 25%, in fact I bet it is far less than that even.

I would be curious to see how many pro-life flip-floppers there are when they are forced to make that choice. I bet there are a lot.

Lue are you for the death penalty?

[Harrison]

There should never be a line drawn connecting pro-life and the death penalty.

Criminals and a 100% innocent life (or potential life) are two vastly different things and should NEVER be compared.

Yes, the criminal in question may be innocent. But in a perfect world, they are not.

The child or potential child in question is always innocent...perfect world or not.

[Gypsiyee]

I understand some people are anti-choice, but I don't criminalize them for it (though those who are anti-choice even in the case of rape and incest I take serious issue with.)

there's a difference between a right to an opinion and an extreme out of left field blatantly rude and offensive statement categorizing people as murderers coming from someone who will never have to deal with that sort of decision.

I tell you, it must be nice to look down on the world from that high up. surprised he doesn't permanently have a nosebleed.

[ClakarEQ]

The point that was made used the word, murder. Murder is murder is murder it makes no difference of the guilt, either you value life or you don't, the age, sex, or crimes make no difference.

And the line drawing is your opinion, and a minority at that. Most pro-life folks are pro-life because of their religious beliefs and most I will bet are christian. You can NOT be christian and be FOR the death penalty, PERIOD, no if's and's or but's about it, that is a FACT assuming you really are a christian and not some cult sect type that 'thinks' their christian.

Now I'm not suggesting Lue is or isn't christian, I was targeting the word murder and as already said, murder is murder is murder.

And you know, the world is far from perfect so your example sorry to say makes no sense to me, innocence carries no value in the realm of murder.

So far, my life experiences and dealing with folks that are pro-life, they tend to be hypocrits and, the death penalty vs pro-choice being a pivital point, and you bet, that is my opinion

The other hypocricy of some pro-life folks go into the realm of bioresearch, things like stem-cells, using components of miscarried babies, aborted embryos, etc. They are ok with pro-life but they are also ok with bioresearch, while the two are often at odds. It puts pro-lifes in a position of impedeing bioresearch technologies, etc.

What the pro-life folks just can't seem to look past or have the vision to see, if the GOV can tell you what to do with your body, that is one step closer to extremes like forced birth control, forced sterilisation, etc. And while I am pro-choice, it is conditional (like within first trimester), however I would still go so far as to say, the child does NOT exist until it is out of her body, that is however extreme and I would only use that type arguement in extreme issues (like if roe vs wade were to be potentially overturned or some shit like that).

A bit of rambling and off topic chatter there, sorry, lets get back to the murder topic , sorry for all the typos, don't feel like spell checking.

[araby]

But, the entire argument over abortion is the idea that a pro-life supporter believes that it's murder.

While that word might seem harsh, or offensive, the pro-life folks think it's harsh and offensive that someone would abort an unborn baby. It's murder to them.

[ClakarEQ]

And that is my point, if you think murder is wrong, then stick by your words, and actually be pro-life, not conditionally pro-life.

edit, wow had a bit typo in there LOL

[Harrison]

I don't equate Capital Punishment to murder.

Murder implies innocence. Punishment implies guilt.

If you want to say kill, fine. It's the same thing. Murder is not to be equated with a punishment for a crime, however.

If you want to argue that you don't believe it is appropriate to kill someone as a punishment for a crime, that is different. But don't call it murder...

[ClakarEQ]

And that is the point of hypocricy, it is the exact same by every definition. You use murder to describe abortion, equates EXACTLY to my use of capital punishment being murder.

To araby's point, "My entire argument is that I actually believe cap. punishment is murder" why is it ok for you to use, but not for me? (this is directed at pro-lifers, not araby as an individual)

Look up the definition of murder, you will see.

[Kramer]

if Paul ran on the Libertarian ticket i would be uber happy

[Harrison]

I explained it as clearly as possible.

The very word contradicts the intent.

Murder -> Innocent killed
Capital Punishment -> Criminally guilty killed

There is a VERY clear line between the two by its very definition.

[Kramer]

there are some wacky looking dudes and chicks that are possible running mates

http://www.lp.org/candidates/liberty-candidates-08

[ClakarEQ]

No harri, you're wrong, the definition speaks towards unlawfull, last I checked abortions are legal as are cap. punishments. So you can not use murder when describing pro-choice or abortions as much as I can't use murder to describe cap. pun.

I agree the line is very clear, but you're not seeing it.

[Harrison]

I honestly can't see how you can ethically relate the two, at all. Not even a little bit.