I might have just chosen a side

[ClakarEQ]

It's ok, we can agree to disagree.

The definition of murder is an unlawfull act of taking another human life (in our context of converstaion).

Abortion (being legal) is as much as murder as cap pun (being legal) is.

So if you equate abortion as murder you are wrong as much as I am wrong equating cap pun as murder.

Abortion is not an unlawful act in taking a yet to be life because abortions are legal
Cap Pun is not an unlawful act in taking a already existing life because cap pun is legal

Murder can ONLY be used in unlawfull situations.

If you say abortions are murder, I say cap pun is murder. How can you not see the hypocricy?

BTW, this has ZERO to do with ethics or morals

[Arlos]

He does have a semantic point, though, in the definition of murder. From Dictionary.com, the primary definition of murder:

the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Abortion is at this time legal, ergo it cannot be murder. To call it such is to be semantically incorrect, even if you are anti-abortion.

Ultimately, the question for me comes down to a rights issue. A person should have the right to decide for themselves to what purposes their own body is put to. (can't think of a better way to phrase that, and that phrasing sucks, I am sorry.) Also, I do NOT accord a currently non-viable fetus anything approaching the same rights and privileges as a fully grown person. Sorry, but a barely differentiated lump of cells 4 or 5 weeks old may be a potential person, but it is NOT one yet. Therefore, I believe that the woman should have the right of final determination of whether or not she is going to carry that pregnancy to term, as it is her body, and her rights are primary over those hypothetically possessed by a zygote.

As for capital punishment, I do not believe that it is good for society for the state to be put into the position of killer, even if those it kills are legally selected due to their misdeeds. Furthermore, 1 innocent person being put to death is far more than I am willing to accept, and since we do not have a perfect system of determining guilt, and since we KNOW mistakes have been made via acquittals of death row inmates brought about by DNA evidence and the Innocence Project, I am therefore opposed to the Death Penalty. Besides which, I honestly don't think it's really a deterrent. If you're far enough gone that you're willing to kill innocent people to get something you want, I highly doubt the potential concern that the state might kill you with lethal injection is going to deter you one iota. CERTAINLY it is no deterrent against sociopaths, like Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy, etc.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

Arlos, you echo my thoughts near exact.

[Harrison]

How does the taking of a life, innocent as opposed to guilty of a crime, have nothing to do with ethics?

As to address Arlos' ninja post:

I agree with the assessment that the clump of cells shouldn't hold the equivalent for rights that we do as people, but that's because of varying reasons.

I do however, personally, find it detestable that people abort for frivolous reasons such as monetary standing etc. Yeah, I get it. If they aren't ready, blah fucking blah.

I grew up poor, I'm sure some of you were much worse off. Would you rather have been aborted than "suffer" the poverty? Exactly.

There's no easy way to go about it. I just on a personal level flip my shit at the thought of abortion as a form of birth control as it currently is used by most.

Don't bring up the obvious extenuating circumstances that NONE of us disagree with. We've been over this a thousand times.

[Harrison]

I teeter on the line between pro choice and pro life.

I support the choice, sometimes. Though I prefer to support the potential for life, regardless of your reasons. (other than the obvious extenuating circumstances as stated, rape, incest, health, etc.)

I think people toss life away far too easily. I just get very angry at the thought.

[ClakarEQ]

Harri, in all honesty I think we aren't all that far apart on this issue. My statement regarding ethics and such was to the point of this converstation. Of course both issues deal with ethics and morals.

I am attempting to change your wording and perhaps your mind regarding what is murder and what isn't. I don't think murder and abortion should go together just as you don't think cap pun and murder should go together.

I'm willing to concede and not equate or post cap pun to murder so long as I don't see posts that say shit like abortion is murder (and of course I have to remember what I've just said too )

[araby]

I know I'm being argumentative and picky, but when I hear people say, "women have the right to do what they want with their bodies" it truly bugs the shit out of me. Of course they do. Right up to the moment they have unprotected sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy. I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone could come up with the funds for an abortion, yet can't seem to get some birth control, which if I'm not mistaken, is virtually free through family planning programs. It's just irresponsibility, something that can be avoided, and I am sure that's my biggest issue with it.

[Harrison]

I know I'm being argumentative and picky, but when I hear people say, "women have the right to do what they want with their bodies" it truly bugs the shit out of me. Of course they do. Right up to the moment they have unprotected sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy. I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone could come up with the funds for an abortion, yet can't seem to get some birth control, which if I'm not mistaken, is virtually free through family planning programs. It's just irresponsibility, something that can be avoided, and I am sure that's my biggest issue with it.

DING DING DING

We have a winner.

[Arlos]

I don't care for people using abortion as birth control either. Indeed, you may have noticed my rather active advocacy for serious sex-ed in schools, including instructions on how to use condoms, PLUS making birth control pills and condoms freely available. Last I looked, studies had shown that places that DO do that, the pregnancy rate plummets. Similarly, I believe the Morning-After pill should be freely available, so should something unexpected occur (condom tearing, etc), the potential fetus can be flushed out naturally before it ever lodges in the uterine wall and starts to develop.

BOTH of those situations are vastly superior to using abortion as birth control. Unfortunately, the far-right with it's insistence on abstinence-only teachings, and its ridiculous refusal to allow condom distribution helps cause there to be more abortions carried out, which seems extraordinarily hypocritical to me.

In any case, as I have said before, it's not MY body that's having to carry that fetus, so it cannot ultimately be my decision. So, while I do not like the reasons behind the choice some people make, I still feel, adamantly, that it is imperative that it still BE their choice, since it is inarguably their body.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Oh, one other thing, unexpected pregnancies are not always the result of ignoring birth control. No method is 100% effective, and as I mentioned, accidents (such as a condom tearing) can certainly happen. Plus, if people have no idea what they're doing, and don't use things properly, mistakes can happen as well despite the best of intentions.

Hell, my parents weren't planning on having kids for a few years yet and were using birth control when my mom got pregnant with me. However, in their case, they had been married for 2 years already, and were in a situation where they COULD have a kid, they just hadn't planned on it yet.

But what about those other cases, where someone DID use birth control, but got pregnant anyway, and now they want to abort the baby because they are NOT ready to be a parent? Opinion on those cases, Fin, etc?

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

I know I'm being argumentative and picky, but when I hear people say, "women have the right to do what they want with their bodies" it truly bugs the shit out of me. Of course they do. Right up to the moment they have unprotected sex resulting in an unwanted pregnancy. I can't wrap my head around the idea that someone could come up with the funds for an abortion, yet can't seem to get some birth control, which if I'm not mistaken, is virtually free through family planning programs. It's just irresponsibility, something that can be avoided, and I am sure that's my biggest issue with it.

I call it, when kids have sex. Or even better when stupid people have sex.

You assume and give far too much credit to "people".

You are correct though, it can be 100% avoided (well minus the rape type issues, etc).

In the near future, I'm curious where pro-lifers will stand on the issue of custom made babies. If they think that will be ok. Too soon to tell right now but bioresearch will be there soon enough, and if I want my kid to have blue eyes brown hair, good in sports, or smart in school, it will be a choice, that is a bit scary as well, but again that is a bit down the road.

[ClakarEQ]

DING DING DING

We have a winner.

But her statement didn't really have to do with "our" little chat

[Harrison]

Same thing in my eyes...

You know the consequences, you played the odds, you took the responsibility. Same chances you take with STD's etc.

[Gypsiyee]

Same thing in my eyes...

You know the consequences, you played the odds, you took the responsibility. Same chances you take with STD's etc.

I dunno, Harrison - I think that's a bit of a stretch. I'm not quite sure how you can be so perplexed at the comparison of capital punishment to abortion and then compare a baby to an STD. You fuck up and get an STD, you fuck yourself for life. You fuck up and get pregnant and have no means of providing that child a respectable life, you fuck two people for life.

I completely agree with the problem of using abortion for birth control - I am NOT supportive of that by any stretch of the imagination. I have, however, seen friends be put in extenuating circumstances forcing them to have abortions, the details of which are no one on this board's business.. to even subtly imply that they were murderers is positively disgusting and something to be ashamed of.

Like I said, though - it's typical "not my problem" logic that puts people on high horses. If you don't see it or you don't ever go through it, it's awfully easy to tell someone else how they should handle it. Until you yourself partake in that sort of life-changing decision or witness it, you're just an ignorant fool screaming to someone about something you know nothing of and being critical of those who do have firsthand knowledge. (I mean this you as a general, not directing this at Harrison.)

It's like a 150 pound man who can eat 6000 calories a day and never gain a pound telling someone else to stick to their diet if they want to be skinny. Sure, as someone who doesn't have to deal with it it's easy to speculate, but being in the situation is much, much different and more difficult than the other can even fathom.

Anyhow, the entire point of my first post was to point out how unnecessary, inappropriate, and needlessly combative that particular statement was. It wasn't to start yet another abortion discussion, because we'll be here another 20 pages if we do =x

[Kaemon]

When you play with fire, more often than not you will get burned. It doesn't matter if you have the fire extinguisher right next to you.

If you decide to have sex, you should be responsible enough to accept the consequense of an unwanted pregenancy. I don't have a problem of an abortion when the fetus is in it's early stages, If that's what you choose to do. I have a problem when they have a HEARTBEAT. Having abortions in the late stages of the first or second and third trimester of a pregnancy to me is indeed considered the action of killing an innocent human.

I think before any women decides to have an abortion, they should spend an hour listening to their child's heartbeat before they decide to silence it. Alway's remember there are other alternatives out there if they still don't want the baby after he/she is born.

[Zanchief]

I'm pro-choice just because I think it increases the chance that people like Harrison end up in a bio-waste bag in some alley rather then posting on the internet.

But seriously, kudos to Finny for contributing to a discussion for once. Or trying at least.

I'm going to ignore all this abortion hoopla since it all goes around in circles. The right points out the very few advantages like abortions for rape victims or when the mother is in serious danger and the right points out the rare situations where women use it as birth control or late term abortions.

The republicans will win the next election though, and that’s because their sheep or way more diluted then the democratic sheep. Their like a zombie nation, they do as their told. Plus all the people pretending to be hellbent on voting for a third party candidate are all going to vote McCain at the last minute because all the right wing rhetoric about weakening a nation with a Liberal at the helm always works, time and time again.

[Gypsiyee]

If you decide to have sex, you should be responsible enough to accept the consequense of an unwanted pregenancy. I don't have a problem of an abortion when the fetus is in it's early stages, If that's what you choose to do. I have a problem when they have a HEARTBEAT. Having abortions in the late stages of the first or second and third trimester of a pregnancy to me is indeed considered the action of killing an innocent human.

I do not disagree with this statement at all, except that I'm personally okay with first trimester abortions.

Second/third trimester, I completely agree. I think the first trimester is plenty of time to have your window, figure it out, make your decision, and live with it. If it's done later, it should be only in extreme circumstances.

I do not think that in a lifetime you should ever exceed 2 abortions. Ever. I think even 2 is stretching it, but sometimes even lightning strikes twice. I think after 2, it's clear that you are simply irresponsible and rather than provide an abortion, they should provide your tubes being tied.

I will never agree, however, that the calculated and painful decision to terminate your pregnancy in the first trimester due to circumstances beyond your control is murder. When I was a teen, I was very anti-choice - as I got older, watching the 2 friends, I understood that the choice is no easy one to make but that sometimes it's not as black and white as people seem to think.

Sometimes the worst results come from the best intentions, and that's something that needs to be taken into consideration. We can scream all day long about how no abortion is ever the right choice, but when someone births a child into a world where it will not receive the love it deserves, you can end up with all sorts of problems - psychological, especially. Look at how high the crime rate is in people who come from broken homes - do we really need more of that? and that, of course, is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is so much more to it than 'to kill an innocent or not to kill an innocent.' A much larger picture lies beneath the surface.

[KaiineTN]

I think it's wrong for anyone to think they can step into someone else's life and tell them what they can or can't do with their body. I don't see a fetus as a living human being until it is possible for it to survive outside the womb. A heartbeat doesn't matter much, as heart cells will beat even without a brain telling them too (which is creepy, I remember seeing a chunk of pulsing heart tissue that scientists were playing with).

I do think abortion should be generally frowned upon, and not thought of as an ultimate if shit hits the fan type of birth control. People should be responsible, but even with being responsible, pregnancy can happen. Take my sister as an example, she got pregnant when she was 16, and they used protection. She did not get an abortion, but she had every right to if she so chose. Anyone here who tells me she shouldn't have that right should get a punch in the face.

No matter what happens with abortion, it shouldn't be a federal issue, it should be a state issue. When presidents talk about abortion, it's about earning points with you. Abortion should be an issue where the legality should be determined at the state level. And yes, that means if abortion is illegal in your state, you should be able to go to the next state over and have it done if it is legal there.

If abortion was completely illegal, I bet we'd see a sharp increase in the amount of miscarriages, and I assure you, that wouldn't just be coincidence.

[ClakarEQ]

If abortion was completely illegal, I bet we'd see a sharp increase in the amount of miscarriages, and I assure you, that wouldn't just be coincidence.

I think that has been proven already, because it wasn't always legal.

I do think it is a federal issue though, personally I wouldn't want any state to say no while another says yes.

[leah]

dude arlos! re: accidental pregnancy, the three children that resulted after my aunt and uncle got married were all "surprises." i'm not sure if they were planning to have kids eventually or not (i'm assuming they were--my aunt terri loves kids more than anything in the world) but none of her three kids with my uncle mike were expected. with one, the condom broke; with another, she was on the pill. the third? she came around even after terri had had her tubes tied! craziness. sometimes pregnancies just happen, despite how hard you try to prevent them. lucky for our family, though, because we got some awesome cousins out of the deal hehe

[Haylo]

I'm pro-life for myself but pro-choice up to a point for everyone else. I don't agree with late term abortions. I feel as if you have ample time in the first trimester to handle the issue however you see fit. People who carry babies until second and third trimester, beyond the point at which they actually exist as a person and then abort are sick imo, I just can't see a justification for it. Unless it's one of those extreme cases, which are outside the scope of things.

As far as abortion vs capital punishment, a life is a life, whether it be an innocent life or an evil life. If you are a pro-life Christian, you are basing your beliefs on New Testament biblical teachings. There is no distinction between a worthy life and an unworthy one. If you murder a murderer you just became a murderer yourself. If you abort a child that is viable, that could survive outside of your body, then you have committed a murder.

[ClakarEQ]

I'm pro-life for myself but pro-choice up to a point for everyone else. I don't agree with late term abortions. I feel as if you have ample time in the first trimester to handle the issue however you see fit. People who carry babies until second and third trimester, beyond the point at which they actually exist as a person and then abort are sick imo, I just can't see a justification for it. Unless it's one of those extreme cases, which are outside the scope of things.

As far as abortion vs capital punishment, a life is a life, whether it be an innocent life or an evil life. If you are a pro-life Christian, you are basing your beliefs on New Testament biblical teachings. There is no distinction between a worthy life and an unworthy one. If you murder a murderer you just became a murderer yourself. If you abort a child that is viable, that could survive outside of your body, then you have committed a murder.

Harri

DING DING DING, Haylo wins this round

[Harrison]

Not if you remove the religious element entirely and look at it from where I'm standing...

I see a major difference between taking the life of an innocent and that of a murderer, rapist, child molester, or what have you.

I've contemplated taking a vigilante approach to some of the shit going on around me lately, gang related.

I have no qualms with killing bad people.

[Haylo]

That's fine, but you are a murderer if you do so. The argument isn't how you feel about, but what it actually is. If you kill someone, no matter what the justification, it is still a killing. How you feel about it because of the status of the person is irrelevant. Thus if you are truly pro-life, you can not also be for the death penalty without being a hypocrite. Pro-life means that all life has a value, not selective life.

[Harrison]

Pro-life means that all life has a value, not selective life.

My stance can't be simply thrown into a cookie cutter, like most beliefs people hold.

So don't try it? lol