VP debate

[Tossica]

LOL

This should be entertaining.

[Evermore]

wanna bet palin get owned like a Korean hooker?

[Tuggan]

She probably won't "win" by any means, but Biden won't be allowed to tear her apart. I think it's going to be a pretty lame 90 minutes.

[Tossica]

What do you mean he won't be allowed?

[Evermore]

I dont think Biden will have to tear her apart. He wont need too.

and how do you mean wont be allowed? who'd stop him?

[Tuggan]

The Obama campaign?

[Arlos]

Well, he does run the risk of "Looking like he's picking on that poor nice soccer mom lady. Damn bigwigs, always trying to put us average folks down"....

Yes, that's utterly retarded. But you know people out there will think that if he tears into her to thoroughly.

Remember how McCain came across by being overly attacking towards Obama in the first debate, Biden has to be careful not to go down that same road.

I'm just worried that her constant idiocies of the last week or two have set the bar of expectations for her SO low, that as long as she doesn't sit there drooling and spouting the same crap she did to Couric or something, that she'll come off looking good, just because she's looked so bad recently by comparison.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

He can do whatever he wants, maybe "allowed" wasn't the best word... but i'm sure he's been coached, and warned about how to act in this debate. If Biden goes in there and fucks her shit up, the Obama campaign will catch so much bad press it could be disastrous for them. I feel bad for Biden really, he has to be so very careful about anything he says or directs towards her.

She will go into this debate charming and sweet, and he'll look like the biggest dickhead ever if he doesn't act the same way. Which is why I think it's going to be a really lame 90 minutes.

[Tossica]

Fuck that. Now is the time to shut that bitch down for good.

[Evermore]

he will have to do that by getting her to show what an idiot she actually is. He cannot directly attack her. I dont think that will be very difficult, judging from what she has shown so far..

[Martrae]

I expect this to be highly entertaining....anyone else gonna be popping popcorn?

[Gypsiyee]

Yeah, Biden is going to have to tiptoe around her a bit, lest they scream sexism and bullying, which Biden already has a reputation for (the bullying, not sexism)

His debate partner for practice has been Jennifer Granholm, though, which has to have benefited him at least a little, I hope - she's got very similar traits to Palin in that she's a governer, in her 40s, was a former beauty pageant girl, etc. Rigid practice with her hopefully has softened him to know what does and does not come off as sexist. He has experience debating women, but they've all been hard-hitting women like Clinton who he didn't have to tiptoe around. Being as Palin's entire purpose is to force the Obama campaign to tiptoe, it's not quite the same thing.

I did read this the other day, and I tend to agree - you can see these traits in Palin through interviews.. I hope they work against her rather than for her, but there will be several mindless sheep watching with drool on their chins thinking "hurr, she's pretty" as she speaks her little 'sentences to nowhere'

I've Debated Sarah Palin More Than 20 Times -- Here's What It's Like

By Andrew Halcro, Christian Science Monitor. Posted October 1, 2008.



I know firsthand: She's a master of the nonanswer.

Anchorage, Alaska - When he faces off against Sarah Palin Thursday night, Joe Biden will have his hands full.

I should know. I've debated Governor Palin more than two dozen times. And she's a master, not of facts, figures, or insightful policy recommendations, but at the fine art of the nonanswer, the glittering generality. Against such charms there is little Senator Biden, or anyone, can do.

On paper, of course, the debate appears to be a mismatch.

In 2000, Palin was the mayor of an Alaskan town of 5,500 people, while Biden was serving his 28th year as a United States senator. Her major public policy concern was building a local ice rink and sports center. His major public policy concern was the State Department's decision to grant an export license to allow sales of heavy-lift helicopters to Turkey, during tense UN-sponsored Cyprus peace talks.

On paper, the difference in experience on both domestic and foreign policy is like the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing a bullet. Unfortunately for Biden, if recent history is an indicator, experience or a grasp of the issues won't matter when it comes to debating Palin.

On April 17, 2006, Palin and I participated in a debate at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks on agriculture issues. The next day, the Fairbanks Daily News Miner published this excerpt:

"Andrew Halcro, a declared independent candidate from Anchorage, came armed with statistics on agricultural productivity. Sarah Palin, a Republican from Wasilla, said the Matanuska Valley provides a positive example for other communities interested in agriculture to study."

On April 18, 2006, Palin and I sat together in a hotel coffee shop comparing campaign trail notes. As we talked about the debates, Palin made a comment that highlights the phenomenon that Biden is up against.

"Andrew, I watch you at these debates with no notes, no papers, and yet when asked questions, you spout off facts, figures, and policies, and I'm amazed. But then I look out into the audience and I ask myself, 'Does any of this really matter?' " Palin said.

While policy wonks such as Biden might cringe, it seemed to me that Palin was simply vocalizing her strength without realizing it. During the campaign, Palin's knowledge on public policy issues never matured -- because it didn't have to. Her ability to fill the debate halls with her presence and her gift of the glittering generality made it possible for her to rely on populism instead of policy.

Palin is a master of the nonanswer. She can turn a 60-second response to a query about her specific solutions to healthcare challenges into a folksy story about how she's met people on the campaign trail who face healthcare challenges. All without uttering a word about her public-policy solutions to healthcare challenges.

In one debate, a moderator asked the candidates to name a bill the legislature had recently passed that we didn't like. I named one. Democratic candidate Tony Knowles named one. But Sarah Palin instead used her allotted time to criticize the incumbent governor, Frank Murkowski. Asked to name a bill we did like, the same pattern emerged: Palin didn't name a bill.

And when she does answer the actual question asked, she has a canny ability to connect with the audience on a personal level. For example, asked to name a major issue that had been ignored during the campaign, I discussed the health of local communities, Mr. Knowles talked about affordable healthcare, and Palin talked about ... the need to protect hunting and fishing rights.

So what does that mean for Biden? With shorter question-and-answer times and limited interaction between the two, he should simply ignore Palin in a respectful manner on the stage and answer the questions as though he were alone. Any attempt to flex his public-policy knowledge and show Palin is not ready for prime time will inevitably cast him in the role of the bully.

On the other side of the stage, if Palin is to be successful, she needs to do what she does best: fill the room with her presence and stick to the scripted sound bites.

[Gypsiyee]

ah, this is a good summary too:

What Biden Needs to Do to Nail the Debate
By George Lakoff, AlterNet
Posted on October 1, 2008, Printed on October 2, 2008
http://www.alternet.org/story/101161/
In the first debate, Obama did what he needed to do: convince a majority that he has what it takes. But there is room for improvement.

1. Obama kept working within McCain's frames: Earmarks, tax policy, military policy as foreign policy, and so on. McCain would say something false using one of his frames, and Obama would be lured into correcting McCain in McCain's own frame and then stay in it. Rule 1: Change to your frame.

2. A simple thing: Instead of saying "I agree with Sen. McCain ...," Obama should try "Sen. McCain agrees with me that ..." The former frames McCain as setting the standard. The latter frames Obama as setting the standard. Or try " Sen. McCain and I agree" if you are stressing bipartisanship.

3. Obama's answers kept drifting off and falling in intonation at the end. Both beginnings and endings should be short and passionate.

4. Obama missed a great opportunity when McCain said he would freeze nonmilitary spending. A short, but powerful list of what would be cut and how it would affect people's lives could have been devastation. This can still be done however, even by Biden on Thursday.

5. McCain used "no second holocaust" to effect last week in courting the Jewish vote, which could be decisive in Florida. Obama and Biden need to use it, while pointing to Olmert's anti-bombing position along with Olmert's reasons.

6. Obama didn't take the opportunity to talk about foreign policy at the level of the person, not the state -- about foreign policy issues like poverty, hunger, disease, clean water, women's oppression, ethnic cleansing, refugees, global economics, and so on. Military experience doesn't help with these vital issues, and McCain is inexperienced in them.

The reason the list is short is that Obama did so well.

The Democrats are assuming that Biden will win easily over Palin. I hope so, but Palin should not be underestimated. She is being tutored and much of what she will do should be obvious. She will attack Obama viciously, but with humor. I think she will come out as a populist identifying Obama and Biden with Wall Street and say that McCain improved the Paulson bill by going to Washington. She may argue that a corporate income tax cut will put money in the economy. That one's easy to rebut: corporations that need bailouts have losses not incomes and so cutting their taxes would be pointless. But such logical arguments won't carry the day with Conservative Populists. Biden will have to come on at the beginning as a populist attacking the need for such a bailout.

Remember that polls among conservative populists are running more than 100-to-1 against. Also remember that conservative populists see liberals as elitists, and will see Biden negatively if he comes on as a policy wonk trying to upstage Palin on her ignorance about issues. Biden needs to be short, to the point, passionate, and should not forget the Big 5 reasons people vote for a presidential candidate: Values, Authenticity, Communication and Connection, Trust, and Identity. He has to undercut McCain on these, and support himself and Obama on them.

Again, look for the obvious from Palin: She will repeat "That's gotcha journalism" when asked embarrassing questions. She and McCain are the populist reformers fighting Wall street, indentifying Obama and Biden with Wall Street, and touting no taxpayer bailout, private insurance, cutting corporate taxes, cutting spending, the defense of Georgia from the Russians, and drilling to lower energy costs. She will drop the names of the leaders she met in NY at the UN. She will call Obama too liberal and an orator with no content. She will bring back Reverend Wright and Bill Ayres. She will talk about being pro-life and saving the family and the Second Amendment.

Biden will have to practice not falling into any of these frames, but responding (or if possible starting) with framing of his own that casts McCain in a bad light in all these cases and draws her into his framing. I assume those prepping him for the debate will have already told him all of this.

Biden should go after McCain. He should call him a Yes-man for Bush 90 percent of the time, especially on deregulation of Wall Street (which caused this economic crisis), on refusing to fund alternative energy, on starting the Iraq War and not going after Osama bin Laden, and on privatizing -- and eventually ending -- social security. A debate on whether McCain is Yes-Man will displace the maverick frame from public discourse.

Biden should go after McCain's gambling, and point out his gamble last week, which resulted in his messing up the bill to fix the economic crisis. In a crisis, you need a cool head, not an impulsive gambler. There should be a public discussion about McCain as a gambler.

Biden should not let McCain get away with his remark about freezing all spending except for the military and veterans. He should look at the audience and say, if you have a child who has or needs college loans, Sen. McCain will take them away. If your schools get federal funding for education, say for special needs, Sen McCain will eliminate it. If your town gets ... (fill in your favorites), Sen. McCain will cut it -- and give your money instead via tax breaks to wealthy people and corporations who don't need it.

Biden should also go into the nonmilitary aspects of foreign policy, especially those at the level of the person: poverty, hunger, disease, water, ethnic cleansing, women's oppression, and so on. McCain has not experience working on such people-oriented issues, where military experience doesn't count.

Biden should criticize Palin for making women who've been raped pay for their own rape tests, on not being pro-life after birth because of her views of children's health care, on helping to raise the rate of teenage pregnancies and hence abortions by being against sex education, and on helping to bring back back-alley abortionists by supporting laws that would have the government interfere with the intimate decisions that only individual women should be making. Lack of sex education, lack of pre-and post-natal care, and bringing on the return of back-alley abortionists supports a culture of death, not life.

This is the opportunity to bring up Palin's Road to Nowhere, built from earmark funds, and going nowhere, routed through a nature preserve -- a place that shouldn't even have roads.

Biden doesn't have to prove himself in this debate. Palin does have to prove herself. That means Biden can hold back, give short but powerful responses, and try to prevent gaffes.

Finally, there is "gotcha journalism." If Palin brings it up, the right response is that journalists have a job to do, to find out what candidates know and believe, and that experienced candidates know how to respond by communicating clearly what they really do know and do believe.

[10sun]

I expect this to be highly entertaining....anyone else gonna be popping popcorn?

Having a party to watch it with a couple poli-minded folks. Going to be making popcorn & then s`mores later on if the weather permits.

-Adam

[Kramer]

i don't know the details, but what i have heard from political reporters is that the arrangement is going to be WAY more like an interview with Gwen Eifell as opposed to an actual debate where they head to head....

luckily for the foreign affairs mavin Palin....

did you guys hear McCain telling Couric that she pulled a "soundbite gotcha" on Palin and that she was being unfair, ya know when L:ain said we SHOULD go into Pakistan after McCain tore into Obama about how outrageously stupid that would be... poor guy, can't control his onw candidate LOL

[Arlos]

10sen, here's something that should help the VP Debate party: http://www.palinbingo.com/ Everyone print one out, and offer a free beer to the winner or something.

-Arlos

[leah]

AH I HATE HER ACCENT I CAN BARELY LISTEN TO HER

[Arlos]

Ugh, she's babbling. I can hardly listen to her either. She's tried the folksy route and stumbled over what she was saying. This is NOT looking good for her...

-Arlos

[leah]

every time she references hockey or soccer, DRINK

[Arlos]

Or Joe 6 pack!

Biden is sounding pretty damn good so far, though.

-Arlos

[leah]

he has a really soothing voice, it's nice to listen to.

[brinstar]

she is doing better than i thought, but joe is still cool as a cucumber and in control

[brinstar]

eeeee she is talking about oil like it was blood, creepy

[brinstar]

"positively affect the impacts"

[brinstar]

NOOKYALURR

game set match: biden