Interesting clip on Housing Crisis

[Tossica]

So Tossica, you don't think that legislation that put pressure on lending institutions to make more loans available contributed to this mess? Or you just don't think that such legislation exists? Sure, greed in business and stupid decisions in the private sector played their part, but the root cause of the problem was legislation that was intended to increase home ownership, which sounded good on paper and got people elected. It was all part of the political game, just as fixing the problem it caused is part of that same game today.

No, what I'm saying is that making poor people and specifically poor minorities the scapegoat for this mess is BULLSHIT. Most poor people don't own homes because they are POOR and can't afford them. Poor people didn't invent the subprime mortgage industry. Poor people didn't figure out how to "bet" on mortgages. Poor people did not manipulate the books to make a horseshit situation look better on paper.

Rich greedy fucks got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. End of story.

[Eziekial]

Poor people are POOR and therefore have no business owning a home. I don't what what the fuck lenders were thinking giving something of value to someone without the means or mentality to keep it. It's like asking a drunk to hold a liquor bottle for safe keeping...

[Martrae]

I really can't wrap my head around the way you think. And I'm glad of that.

It's a poor thing to see everything in terms of race.

The way "I" think???

YOU are the one that's claiming the banking industry collapsed because Barack Obama made banks give loans to minorities, not me.

YOU are the one that continually defends rich white America and condemns the poor, not me.

YOU are the one that is one layoff away from the poor house just like millions of other people yet continue to look down your noses at them because of the color of their skin. White people that are waiting in line at social services are just down on their luck due to a lousy economy but minorities that are in the same line are there because they just want a handout and are wasting YOUR tax dollars... oh wait, that's right, you don't even work!

And there you go again putting words and thoughts to me that I never said.

I NEVER blamed the poor. I blamed the people who used the poor for their own agenda. Do you get it yet? Obama was one of those people. End of story. You just saw me say 'poor' and flipped your wig. That and I was denegrating your boy.

ACORN's main motive is votes. They got it by arranging house loans for people who couldn't afford one and couldn't get one any other way.

And I work harder than you, I wager. I just don't get paid for it.

[Drem]

she home school teaches her 3-4 kids probably more work than i would want to do.

that's pretty hardcore. do they do sports and stuff outside of their home school, too?

[Martrae]

she home school teaches her 3-4 kids probably more work than i would want to do.

that's pretty hardcore. do they do sports and stuff outside of their home school, too?

Naturally.

[Tossica]

Poor people are POOR and therefore have no business owning a home. I don't what what the fuck lenders were thinking giving something of value to someone without the means or mentality to keep it. It's like asking a drunk to hold a liquor bottle for safe keeping...

Exactly. I think people are picturing all these welfare recipients trying to buy homes and that's just not the case. What WAS happening is people with good jobs and decent credit were being denied loans because they were minorities and the homes they wanted to buy were in mainly minority neighborhoods. I think we can all agree that is not a fair thing and needed to be changed.

Again, POOR people defaulting on loans is NOT the problem. Middle class people buying beyond their means, refinancing to help make ends meet and rich people buying MULTIPLE homes on interest only and ARM loans so they could flip them for quick money is the problem. They sought out these "subprime" lenders who would give them loans without proof of income because they figured they would only own the home for less than a year and then dump it. They are the ones foreclosing in droves because now they are stuck with millions of dollars in loans for property that is worth far less than that. Many of the foreclosures are on rental properties and the like, NOT on modest homes in low income areas owned by the residents.

[Arlos]

No one is questioning whether or not Mart expends a lot of effort and time in raising kids and doing the home schooling. The issue is, since she is not getting paid for it, SHE isn't paying taxes. Thus the vitriol over what happens with "her tax money" seems somewhat ridiculous given that she's not actually paying any.

As for the housing mess, I think to try and lay the blame at the feet of any one group is futile at best. Lots of factors contributed to this shit sandwich. While there is blame to go around to all groups, I still lay the biggest blame on the greed of Wall Street and the mortgage companies.

No one forced them to create complicated financial instruments that they don't even understand. No one forced them to completely ignore all levels of risk. No one forced companies like Lehman Brothers to leverage themselves to the tune of 35-1 debt ratios. No one forced predatory lenders to break the law and hard-sell mortgage re-fi's to anyone out there with any kind of mortgage. People I knew with mortgages were getting sometimes 5+ calls a day asking them to re-fi. Some even changed their answering machine messages telling the loan sales people to go away because they were getting that harassed.

Yes, there were people who got loans who KNEW they could never afford them, and those people are plenty guilty. There's a much larger group, however, that were honest people who thought they could afford a home of their own, and were duped and lied to by lenders acting illegally. Where's the hate for theh companies that acted illegally in creating bad loans with no regard to their fundamentals, just because it got their executives 10% higher bonuses?

-Arlos

[Evermore]

Side bets: how long till someone makes a racist remark?

[Martrae]

No one is questioning whether or not Mart expends a lot of effort and time in raising kids and doing the home schooling. The issue is, since she is not getting paid for it, SHE isn't paying taxes. Thus the vitriol over what happens with "her tax money" seems somewhat ridiculous given that she's not actually paying any.

-Arlos

I worked a paying job for years and will again in the probably-not-so-far future. My name goes on the tax report to Uncle Sam.

Edited to add: and if you don't think every penny Kahar has to pay doesn't affect me you have no idea how a family works.

[Tossica]

No one is questioning whether or not Mart expends a lot of effort and time in raising kids and doing the home schooling. The issue is, since she is not getting paid for it, SHE isn't paying taxes. Thus the vitriol over what happens with "her tax money" seems somewhat ridiculous given that she's not actually paying any.

-Arlos

I worked a paying job for years and will again in the probably-not-so-far future. My name goes on the tax report to Uncle Sam.

Edited to add: and if you don't think every penny Kahar has to pay doesn't affect me you have no idea how a family works.

And the money I PAY would go to support you in case Kahar gets laid off and you and your family are in need. I have ZERO problem with that. You are my fellow Americans and I think it's important that you and your family get the help you need in hard times. Whether you and Kahar are fuck ups or not should NOT be punishment for your children who are innocent. They should have health care, a quality education and access to the same opportunities that kids in well off families have.

[Martrae]

We differ in the means then. I would prefer the government stay out of it and allow me to use what money I have at my disposal to help people. I would much rather voluntarily help a person in my town than have my money forcefully taken from me (and if you don't think that's true try not paying your taxes) and used at the government's discretion.

We have a garden. I frequently give away produce that I probably could sell to people I know are having a hard time. I like knowing it's going to someone who is truly thankful and will put it to good use.

[ClakarEQ]

We differ in the means then. I would prefer the government stay out of it and allow me to use what money I have at my disposal to help people. I would much rather voluntarily help a person in my town than have my money forcefully taken from me (and if you don't think that's true try not paying your taxes) and used at the government's discretion.

We have a garden. I frequently give away produce that I probably could sell to people I know are having a hard time. I like knowing it's going to someone who is truly thankful and will put it to good use.

Your thoughts and kindness are a minority in our country and you should know this. What if 10 if your neighbors are in need, what then? You have to know our country drives on selfishness to extremes. For every kind act of yours 1000's do the opposite. If this were utopia and everyone had your mind, it will all be ok, but this isn't utopia and very few have your mind.

Similiarly, where are the gardens in NYC, LA, Chicago, Detroit? What about all those people, who is going to help them, YOU, ME, I bet not.

I'm sure you see it everyday, in your car, in the store, etc. How many folks go out of there way to be kind, to help another, you can't say it's even close to 1 in 10.

[brinstar]

:popcorn:


Side bets: how long till someone makes a racist remark?

shut up you fucking kike

[leah]

WHOA

[Diekan]

flipped your wig.

[brinstar]

was i serious?

[Drem]

We differ in the means then. I would prefer the government stay out of it and allow me to use what money I have at my disposal to help people. I would much rather voluntarily help a person in my town than have my money forcefully taken from me (and if you don't think that's true try not paying your taxes) and used at the government's discretion.

We have a garden. I frequently give away produce that I probably could sell to people I know are having a hard time. I like knowing it's going to someone who is truly thankful and will put it to good use.

Your thoughts and kindness are a minority in our country and you should know this. What if 10 if your neighbors are in need, what then? You have to know our country drives on selfishness to extremes. For every kind act of yours 1000's do the opposite. If this were utopia and everyone had your mind, it will all be ok, but this isn't utopia and very few have your mind.

Similiarly, where are the gardens in NYC, LA, Chicago, Detroit? What about all those people, who is going to help them, YOU, ME, I bet not.

I'm sure you see it everyday, in your car, in the store, etc. How many folks go out of there way to be kind, to help another, you can't say it's even close to 1 in 10.

he speaks teh truth

[Martrae]

I dunno. I'm constantly surprised by the kindness and generosity of people.

[Harrison]

I dunno. I'm constantly surprised by the kindness and generosity of people.

The fact you're surprised by it says enough, though.

I nearly shit a brick if a car slows down or stops to let me pass in the crosswalk.

[Haylo]

People are not kind anymore. By that I mean people as a whole rather than individuals. When i'm riding the trains from DC to MD, I always stand because i'd rather let older people sit down after a long day. I've stood and looked at healthy young people staring right at elderly men & women and ignoring the fact that they so obviously should stand the fuck up. I have seen young mothers struggling with strollers and kids be shoved out of the way so people don't have to wait 5 extra minutes for a train. Please don't use your example where you probably live in a small community where you know most people and expect everyone to agree that it's the norm. Left to their own devices, people are by and large selfish, they care about themselves and their families, not the family down the road who fell on hard times.

If the government didn't use tax money to help the poor and disadvantaged, most needy people would suffer. It's incredibly naive to say that people will do things out of the goodness of their hearts. Come on now, seriously. Obviously there are a large number of people, both black and white who sit around and take handouts. There are also plenty of kids who did not choose to be in that situation. What's the answer, do we take away the programs and leave these kids to suffer? What about the family who's main breadwinner got laid off and they can no longer provide for their own basic needs? How about the family that is basically the working poor, they work hard ever single day but they still can't make all the ends meet. Do we stop helping the people who truly need the help because of the fuckheads that sit around taking advantage of it? Do we let people starve because we want to see a little bit more cash on our bi-weekly checks.

Seriously, we need social help programs, period. There are always going to be people that need help, if the government doesn't help them, we are no better than these countries we're always so quick to rush in and forcibly "help". If you really worried about the state of this country and how hard and far it could/would fall, let there be a point where the poor and disadvantaged have no recourse and no where to turn. They will riot in the streets and no one wins in a situation like that.

[Trielelvan]

I am so having a Southpark flashback right now of Kyle's dad's explanation of "Gods and Clods."

[Diekan]

We already have a system to help people now. But the abuse of that system stiffles it's effectiveness. Taxing more to provide more isn't the answer.

[Haylo]

The current taxes being proposed by Obama would help the poor, but they are not being designed for that primary purpose. They are primarily there to stop the current middle class from dropping even further into the spectrum of people that need social assistance.

I will just say this, it's sad times when people who make above $50k a year are having to look for programs that will allow to buy food at a discounted price. It's ridiculous and if you read Obama's tax plan, these are the people he wants to help the most. A small check of $1000 a year ends up doing what for people that are not going to use it well, help them buy a few more pairs of shoes? Now what do tax credits for college, going green, being involved in your community, what does that do for a middle class family that is trying to do what they are supposed to, the value is immense.

I do not know if Obama's plans are going to work, however I have YET to see any McCain supporter tell me what he is going to do that is different than anything Bush did. How does he plan to make it better? If it comes down to the man who's plans may screw us over or the man who doesn't plan to change the plans of the last last four years. I'd choose the changing plan every time. In four years I may be worse off than I am now and I will regret voting for Obama, but at least I have some little hope that I will be better off. Under a McCain/Palin office, nothing changes and we keep heading on this path, it becomes an easy choice to make.

[Minrott]

Oh bullshit. I have friends you would consider "needy." Hell. I was needy at one point in my life. Hand ups work. Hand outs do not. My friends, who don't make much money, scrape by check to check, why are they like this? Because they can't handle money. They aren't any more disadvantaged than anyone else in the country. No one is barring them employment because of their race. No one is barring them education because of their sex. Every fucking reason you can come up with as to why someone is "needy" is a bullshit excuse.

Life is rough. Wear a helmet. I'm not your mother, I don't love you. People get dealt shitty hands, but unlike a poker game, everyone has the ability to change their cards. It takes work. It might even take a little luck. But every "poor" person I've ever met is "poor" because of the choices they've made themselves. They chose to spend money unwisely. They chose to do poorly in school. They chose a low paying job that was easy rather than a higher paying job that was physically demanding. They chose to do drugs.

Life has fucking consequences, we all pay them, and to stand there and scream at the "rich" that they have it easy and call it their responsibility to help the "poor" is the most pathetic line of bullshit to ever be uttered in human existence. The "rich" are the biggest philanthropists to ever exist, yet you give them no credit because it's easy to give when they have so much. Still, they could keep it and make millions more, but they don't in more cases than I can count. You blame everything on other's greed. Greed is necessary. I want you to be greedy. I want you to look out for number one. I want you to try to get everything you can for yourself, because that means if I want it, I have to work harder than you to get it. When we all have to work harder to get it, the end result is a stronger, self reliant society. No one deserves a god damned thing that I don't. People are not born with poverty in their genetic code. They have to want out of it to get out of it, and that takes greed.

Liberals: Darwin for Nature, nurture for Society. What a joke.

Want to end poverty? Teach fiscal responsibility every year from K-12. Poor kids grow up to be poor adults because they don't have any clue as to how money works, other than that they can trade it for shiny things at the store.

[Narrock]

The current taxes being proposed by Obama would help the poor, but they are not being designed for that primary purpose. They are primarily there to stop the current middle class from dropping even further into the spectrum of people that need social assistance.

I will just say this, it's sad times when people who make above $50k a year are having to look for programs that will allow to buy food at a discounted price. It's ridiculous and if you read Obama's tax plan, these are the people he wants to help the most. A small check of $1000 a year ends up doing what for people that are not going to use it well, help them buy a few more pairs of shoes? Now what do tax credits for college, going green, being involved in your community, what does that do for a middle class family that is trying to do what they are supposed to, the value is immense.

I do not know if Obama's plans are going to work, however I have YET to see any McCain supporter tell me what he is going to do that is different than anything Bush did. How does he plan to make it better? If it comes down to the man who's plans may screw us over or the man who doesn't plan to change the plans of the last last four years. I'd choose the changing plan every time. In four years I may be worse off than I am now and I will regret voting for Obama, but at least I have some little hope that I will be better off. Under a McCain/Palin office, nothing changes and we keep heading on this path, it becomes an easy choice to make.

You're so full of shit it's sickening.