Interesting clip on Housing Crisis

[Haylo]

Coming from you that's rich. You may not like what I have to say, like say Minrott, but at least put out a thought out post. I can respect someone with a differing opinion, I don't respect a blind hate mongering idiot. You shit on this entire board with your stupid ass posts and one liners and no one takes you seriously. I'm full of shit, sickening? No you are a freaking idiot. You are so very scared that someone who is "different" may take this race that you're running around like some deranged decapitated chicken. In short, fuck off.

Minrott, obviously we don't agree and are likely never too agree. I wasn't screaming and raging at anyone in my post, rather just laying out my thoughts. I don't believe that everyone who is poor is some sack of shit who isn't trying. It's unfortunate that you think that if you have no money you aren't worth anything. I know people who have been working their entire lives and they simply have nothing extra left over with to go out and do better things with. Every penny they earn is going towards making sure their families have shelter and food. How do you suggest these people get ahead? That's the problem I have with things as they currently stand. It's not possible for people to reach for some of the things they could in the past because costs keep rising and dollars certainly aren't stretching as far. Do you really believe that the majority of people don't want to be better than they are? I guess where we differ is that I believe in offering people help in achieving those dreams, you think they should reach out and snatch them, even if it's not really attainable.

[Diekan]

Coming from you that's rich. You may not like what I have to say, like say Minrott, but at least put out a thought out post. I can respect someone with a differing opinion, I don't respect a blind hate mongering idiot. You shit on this entire board with your stupid ass posts and one liners and no one takes you seriously. I'm full of shit? No you are a freaking idiot. You are so very scared that someone who is "different" may take this race that you're running around like some deranged decapitated chicken. In short, fuck off.

Minrott, obviously we don't agree and are likely never too agree. I wasn't screaming and raging at anyone in my post, rather just laying out my thoughts. I don't believe that everyone who is poor is some sack of shit who isn't trying. It's unfortunate that you think that if you have no money you aren't worth anything. I know people who have been working their entire lives and they simply have nothing extra left over with to go out and do better things with. Every penny they earn is going towards making sure their families have shelter and food. How do you suggest these people get ahead? That's the problem I have with things as they currently stand. It's not possible for people to reach for some of the things they could in the past because costs keep rising and dollars certainly aren't stretching as far. Do you really believe that the majority of people don't want to be better than they are? I guess where we differ is that I believe in offering people help in achieving those dreams, you think they should reach out and snatch them, even if it's not really attainable.

I think people have gotten lazier over the years. I think there are a lot of people who would rather recieve a check from the government than to push themselves to do better. Is that everyone? Of course not. But this is the US of A and there are PLENTY of channels one can navigate through to achieve a better life. Is this *problem* really an issue of money or society? I have seen kids from the inner-city who try and take their education serious so they can go to college and eventually follow their dream. But, what support do they get? They are labeled an "Uncle Tom" and mocked relentelessly. How is more money going to change that? That is a fundimental problem that lies in the home and communities. I have seen poor white kids in the same situation where they are ridiculed for working hard in school instead of partying and taking meth. How is throwing more money at that going change anything?

The premise of life in the US is to work hard to achieve your goals and dreams - not to reach out with an open hand expecting the government to pay your way and do the work for you. I don't buy into the "lack of oppertunity" line. It's not a lack of chance, it's a lack of will. It's the same basic concept that we see in over weight people who complain about being heavy, but won't lift a finger to get into shape. Ever stop to think why the "diet pill" industry is a multi-billion dollar a year success story?

It's not that people can't work hard to reach their goals... many just don't want to. They take medicore jobs, refuse to get an education or learn a viable trade skill and then bitch about unfair it is that someone else who worked their ass off to succeed has a nicer house, nicer car and bigger bank account.

As I said before... we already HAVE assistance programs IN place to help those who are in real need - and there are people out there like that. They typically won't use these programs in the long term. Just long enough to get out of the rut they find themselves in. But, what about the second and third generation welfare families? How long are we supposed to keep supporting them? What do we do about the families and communities that refuse to take responsibility for their children's future? Keep throwing more and more money at them with our fingers crossed in hopes they'll one day wake up?

I think you'll find that the gripe isn't with helping those in real need, but the out-of-control abuse of the programs we already have. I think you'll find that those of us sick of it are not willing to keep throwing more and more money into a system that has no real means of any reasonble control. It's not about hating the poor or turning our backs on them if they are in real need so much as it is about being sick and tired of low life trash that have made a career of bilking the system.

[Haylo]

I think you'll find that the gripe isn't with helping those in real need, but the out-of-control abuse of the programs we already have. I think you'll find that those of us sick of it are not willing to keep throwing more and more money into a system that has no real means of any reasonble control. It's not about hating the poor or turning our backs on them if they are in real need so much as it is about being sick and tired of low life trash that have made a career of bilking the system.

This I can understand and i'll admit that I have suffered some frustrations with the system myself. For instance when i'm tapped out after paying rent, paying student loans, paying bills etc. and I see one of the kids at my school walk in with $200 dollar shoes and I KNOW that their parents don't work. I have moments of rage. But I for one don't know the solution. Throwing more money at the problem will not solve it. Canceling the programs doesn't solve it because it hurts the innocents and the people that really need the support and are using it to do better. Like the mother who uses wic to provide milk/food for her kids so that her salary can go to rent. Or the parent using child care vouchers to cover the astronomical costs of daycare (seriously, want to make money, open a daycare center, in the DC area we're talking more than $1000 a month for good care). So what is the answer, if there's an easy one out there, it's surely eluded a lot of people for a very long time.

[Tikker]

the real answer is population control and culling the weak from the herd!

[brinstar]

see, i don't believe i've ever once agreed with something Minrott says, but i still respect him because he takes the time to put together a coherent, structured post specifically outlining exactly how he feels and why. well, except from the whole brownshirt thing, but everyone's entitled to a quick one-liner.

contrast that with Mindia, who has not once done anything of the sort, and it really makes him look like an angry empty-headed jackass. so thanks Minrott, for making Mindia look like a complete tool

[Gypsiyee]

Haylo has said just about everything, but I want to add that it's deeply concerning to me that people are so sheltered that they honestly think that every poor person out there is poor because they were too lazy or too irresponsible to take care of themselves.

I don't think people realize how it is until they've actually been there. My mom has worked 2 jobs for 15 years; medical bills for both her and her children and the cost of being a single mother have stretched her so thin that she's in a situation where she has to work, but she's just about physically incapable to do so anymore - she walks like she's made of stone. She hasn't done anything for herself in probably 20 years because she just can't afford it. She doesn't have cable, internet, phone, or anything that you might tell her to cut back on. Her mortgage is not to a nice house, rather to a tiny condo that cost her 46k in '96. Her paychecks went to raising me and my sister and paying her bills. Now she doesn't have me and my sister anymore, but cost of living is so ridiculous that after she pays her mortgage and her other debts her money is gone to gas for commuting to those 2 jobs.

She can't leave her job because she has decent insurance now and she'll be uninsurable somewhere else due to several pre-existing conditions. Her job pays shit because they're assholes. She has never applied for food stamps or disability (though she qualifies) or welfare. Never, and it's because she doesn't want to be a person that people (like you guys) look down their noses at, thinking she didn't work for every penny she has. She's a proud woman, and would be ashamed that anyone thought that of her. She doesn't want to be lumped with the few assholes that take advantage of the system. It makes me sick that she refuses any help because ignorant fucks don't bother to consider a case by case basis and assume that people only need help because they're lazy.

My mom has dedicated her life to everyone but herself, working herself into the ground to a point where she's now too frail to ever have the opportunity to enjoy the benefits that all hard workers should eventually enjoy. Don't for a second tell me that she's just lazy and her predicament is her own fault.

Minrott, while I appreciate that you actually put thought into posts, I have to say that you are in an extreme minority when it comes to where you live and what you go through on a daily basis and I think it gives you tunnel vision. I've lived in the city, I've lived in WI - WI is a completely different world. Living in such a rural area, we had the means to grow our own vegetables - in fact, it was the smart thing to do because the grocery store was 25 minutes away. We had neighbors who knew who everyone was and people cared enough about each other to give a hand up. That's just not how it works everywhere, and you should count your blessings that you haven't had to experience anything else.

[Evermore]

:popcorn:


Side bets: how long till someone makes a racist remark?

shut up you fucking kike

lol Brin wins

[Evermore]

Coming from you that's rich. You may not like what I have to say, like say Minrott, but at least put out a thought out post. I can respect someone with a differing opinion, I don't respect a blind hate mongering idiot. You shit on this entire board with your stupid ass posts and one liners and no one takes you seriously. I'm full of shit, sickening? No you are a freaking idiot. You are so very scared that someone who is "different" may take this race that you're running around like some deranged decapitated chicken. In short, fuck off.

This is why we love Haylo.

[ClakarEQ]

Oh bullshit. I have friends you would consider "needy." Hell. I was needy at one point in my life. Hand ups work. Hand outs do not. My friends, who don't make much money, scrape by check to check, why are they like this? Because they can't handle money. They aren't any more disadvantaged than anyone else in the country. No one is barring them employment because of their race. No one is barring them education because of their sex. Every fucking reason you can come up with as to why someone is "needy" is a bullshit excuse.

Life is rough. Wear a helmet. I'm not your mother, I don't love you. People get dealt shitty hands, but unlike a poker game, everyone has the ability to change their cards. It takes work. It might even take a little luck. But every "poor" person I've ever met is "poor" because of the choices they've made themselves. They chose to spend money unwisely. They chose to do poorly in school. They chose a low paying job that was easy rather than a higher paying job that was physically demanding. They chose to do drugs.

Life has fucking consequences, we all pay them, and to stand there and scream at the "rich" that they have it easy and call it their responsibility to help the "poor" is the most pathetic line of bullshit to ever be uttered in human existence. The "rich" are the biggest philanthropists to ever exist, yet you give them no credit because it's easy to give when they have so much. Still, they could keep it and make millions more, but they don't in more cases than I can count. You blame everything on other's greed. Greed is necessary. I want you to be greedy. I want you to look out for number one. I want you to try to get everything you can for yourself, because that means if I want it, I have to work harder than you to get it. When we all have to work harder to get it, the end result is a stronger, self reliant society. No one deserves a god damned thing that I don't. People are not born with poverty in their genetic code. They have to want out of it to get out of it, and that takes greed.

Liberals: Darwin for Nature, nurture for Society. What a joke.

Want to end poverty? Teach fiscal responsibility every year from K-12. Poor kids grow up to be poor adults because they don't have any clue as to how money works, other than that they can trade it for shiny things at the store.

Minrott, you speak as if everyone in the nation is a peer of yours, they aren't, some folks are less fortunate, you have completely perverted what the nation was meant to be in your post. Greed is what got us where we are.

You remind me of Patrick Swazy(sp) in Red Dawn, I bet that is like your favorite fucking movie LOL

Just as a side question. You're not Christain, are you? Your words are that of an atheist.

[Martrae]

I dunno. I'm constantly surprised by the kindness and generosity of people.

The fact you're surprised by it says enough, though.

I nearly shit a brick if a car slows down or stops to let me pass in the crosswalk.

You're looking at surprised the wrong way. I meant "Oh you brought me extra cantalopes? What a lovely surprise!"

And I live just outside of Raleigh. Not exactly rural area.

[Minrott]

You people should be thanking me for stirring you up, this board was all but dead a month ago.

In order of appearance:

Haylo: I don't hate anyone. I hate a lot of peoples ideas. Everyone has the right to a better life, no one has the right to use what others have earned to get it. Obama isn't different. He's the living reincarnation of previous Democrats like FDR, he's the product of Chicago politics, and because he's more of the same out of the left, except more extreme and he comes with a super majority Congress, that's what scares me. The tried and true "Elect me and I'll help YOU." Except his only plan to help "YOU" (whoever that may be) is to hurt others. It's ok though, right? Because he's only going to hurt the rich, and that won't have any effect on anyone else will it? They don't feel much anyway. Don't insinuate my positions to ever be influenced by race, it's every bit as endearing as Mindia claiming Colin Powell can't have ideological reasons for supporting Obama. If you believe in helping people attain their dreams, that's wonderful. So do I. We just differ in the method of how it should be done. You are under the impression that theft under the threat of armed agents of the State is OK as long as it helps other people. I am under no such impression. (On a side note, my entire position depends on the fact that the subject of our discussion is not physically or mentally disabled and unable to do what's necessary to change their position. Their support is one of the things I don't mind paying taxes on.)

brinstar: This is why I've always liked you, even though we are polar opposites. I can understand and even empathize with many of your positions, and you take the time to look seriously at mine, rather than dismissing them based on where they come from alone. We may never agree, but I'm certain we could always come to a compromise. This, is what I believe is the most wrong of the system. We're becoming so out of balance that instead of seeking middle of the road compromise, we try to get a homerun for our own ideology every chance we can. I don't believe for a second that my extremely libertarian views could run this nation as well as a balanced ideology could. But neither do I believe an extremely leftist ideology could do it any better.

Gypsiyee: I appreciate your mothers position, honestly. You mention consideration on a case by case basis. Wouldn't that be grand. Even I could be convinced your mother needs help on an individual basis. But federal programs are massive bureaucracies that cannot operate in that fashion. There's a man in Ohio, that works every bit as hard as your mother. Maybe even harder. His entire adult life has been dedicated to the running of his own business, his family life has suffered because of it, his social life has suffered because of it, he's been on the brink of financial ruin because of it. Like your mother, he's persevered through it all. Finally, he's made it over the top of the hill, and his business is growing. He's making $250,000 a year, even though it requires 18 hour days 6 days a week to do it. If only we could evaluate his taxes on an individual basis, to see that he's not some trust fund baby who "owes" society for his wealth. If only we could see that this man, given the opportunity will continue to grow his business and eventually employ other people who perhaps previously could not find work. But, like I said, federal programs are massive bureaucracies that don't work in this fashion, and his hard fought earnings will be pilfered to help your mother or someone like her.

As far as counting my blessings, I haven't been blessed. I've made a choice to live where I do, and how I do. I could have just as easily lived in Milwaukee or Minneapolis and made double the money I do now. But I carefully evaluated the benefit of that and chose to stake my claim where I have. Don't act as if it's easy, as I suspect you know it's not. Building an operating farm, albeit a small one, from nothing is not as simple as buying a lot in the country. Just as I know it's not easy for someone in poor position to pick up everything and leave their situation, I know it can be done.

Clakar: That's where we differ. You are under the belief that some people are poor and incapable of anything. Your blind disgust and self hate is disguised as charity for those who can't help themselves. You are the worst kind of liberal, the one who believes "some animals are more equal than others." I on the other hand see everyone as an equal, with the right to be prosperous on their own account, and not kept in the squaller of society by a pittance of government handout. Redistribution of wealth is a self fulfilling prophecy, one that your kind uses to keep others "in place." People that don't need your kind charity earn your hate, because by not depending on you, you have no control over them. How very Christian of you.

[Martrae]

Seriously, we need social help programs, period. There are always going to be people that need help, if the government doesn't help them, we are no better than these countries we're always so quick to rush in and forcibly "help". If you really worried about the state of this country and how hard and far it could/would fall, let there be a point where the poor and disadvantaged have no recourse and no where to turn. They will riot in the streets and no one wins in a situation like that.

I don't disagree that there are people who need help. But that help does not need to come from the federal government. It can and should be handled on a state or local level. Or even better yet by non-profit organizations.

As for the people don't help anymore argument....how many of you give to organization like United Way, Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc? Ever think of how much more you would be able to give to places like that if you didn't pay so much in taxes?

[Haylo]

Don't insinuate my positions to ever be influenced by race, it's every bit as endearing as Mindia claiming Colin Powell can't have ideological reasons for supporting Obama. If you believe in helping people attain their dreams, that's wonderful. So do I.

Did I insinuate in any of my posts that you were motivated by race? I also don't think I mentioned you hating anyone. You may want to reread a bit. I don't believe that anything either of us says to each other will change anything either of us believes, that's fine and I do appreciate the thought you put into your post, other than the quoted section.

Mart, I give to many organizations but I won't go into them here or list amounts that can scoffed at. If I didn't pay so much in taxes, would a lot of those organizations even be able to operate? I'm pretty sure that most charitable organizations such as those receive government help.

Ideologically, I believe in helping those who can not help themselves and are at least trying to do something better with their lives. It's the nature of the beast that in trying to help those sort of people, scoundrels who look to abuse the system will slip through the cracks. Fundamentally i'd love to believe that there is some middle ground that can be reached where both sides of the coin are satisfied, who knows if that will ever be possible though.

[ClakarEQ]

Clakar: That's where we differ. You are under the belief that some people are poor and incapable of anything. Your blind disgust and self hate is disguised as charity for those who can't help themselves. You are the worst kind of liberal, the one who believes "some animals are more equal than others." I on the other hand see everyone as an equal, with the right to be prosperous on their own account, and not kept in the squaller of society by a pittance of government handout. Redistribution of wealth is a self fulfilling prophecy, one that your kind uses to keep others "in place." People that don't need your kind charity earn your hate, because by not depending on you, you have no control over them. How very Christian of you.

Really, you see everyone equal do you. How about the vet with no legs, or the homeless adult with a 5th grade education, or the auto-worker with 30 years on the job and knows nothing else but what it was he used to do? What about those folks Minrott, are they all your peers?

Your narrow minded blinders on care about me and not about you. Let me guess, you'd shit on your own mom if she got in your way, right?

My blind disgust and self hate, o rly, LOL. I realize you've never been in a real position of need or your eyes would be open, not closed as they seem to be.

I on the other hand see everyone as an equal, with the right to be prosperous on their own account, and not kept in the squaller of society by a pittance of government handout.

Is most disturbing of all. Not everyone is equal and for you to think this way goes to show how little you actually know.

You didn't answer my question Minrott, are you a Christian?

[Gypsiyee]

Gypsiyee: I appreciate your mothers position, honestly. You mention consideration on a case by case basis. Wouldn't that be grand. Even I could be convinced your mother needs help on an individual basis. But federal programs are massive bureaucracies that cannot operate in that fashion. There's a man in Ohio, that works every bit as hard as your mother. Maybe even harder. His entire adult life has been dedicated to the running of his own business, his family life has suffered because of it, his social life has suffered because of it, he's been on the brink of financial ruin because of it. Like your mother, he's persevered through it all. Finally, he's made it over the top of the hill, and his business is growing. He's making $250,000 a year, even though it requires 18 hour days 6 days a week to do it. If only we could evaluate his taxes on an individual basis, to see that he's not some trust fund baby who "owes" society for his wealth. If only we could see that this man, given the opportunity will continue to grow his business and eventually employ other people who perhaps previously could not find work. But, like I said, federal programs are massive bureaucracies that don't work in this fashion, and his hard fought earnings will be pilfered to help your mother or someone like her.

As far as counting my blessings, I haven't been blessed. I've made a choice to live where I do, and how I do. I could have just as easily lived in Milwaukee or Minneapolis and made double the money I do now. But I carefully evaluated the benefit of that and chose to stake my claim where I have. Don't act as if it's easy, as I suspect you know it's not. Building an operating farm, albeit a small one, from nothing is not as simple as buying a lot in the country. Just as I know it's not easy for someone in poor position to pick up everything and leave their situation, I know it can be done.

I appreciate the response.

To address the "Joe the Plumber" guy, I can appreciate the type of work that goes into getting there, but one thing needs to be noted in this situation - paying taxes is not quite the same as those who need help. I can appreciate how hard he works, but the fact will remain that he did not pay higher taxes when he didn't have the money, but now he is at a point where he does. I would say that all people at that level work hard, and they enjoy greater profits because of it. That does not mean they should also enjoy bigger tax breaks. There is an implication here that because he works long hours, he shouldn't have to pay as much, and I can't wrap my head around that logic.

Need, however, is on a whole different scale. Your Joe the Plumber, while his journey was tough and he was once at a point of great struggle, is no longer there. He is at a point where he works hard, but he pays his bills just fine, and can now relax during his time off and enjoy the rewards of his hard work. The working poor do not enjoy that option, and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for them - there is no struggle with the big reward of having your own business at the end. They are simple 9-5ers, often 9-9ers, with no means of gaining ground; they simply spin their wheels and pay their bills and live a life of solitude and frustration. They will never see that $250k a year job, and most would be thrilled to be at a point where their income is so high that they're in a whole new tax bracket.

The case by case basis is much different between these two scenarios. They are vastly different cases in that one is a need and one is a want. One of the cases cannot pay their bills. One wants a break because he used to have a hard time paying his bills.

Once you go to a new class, you're a new class. If a fat chick loses weight, do people still see her as fat? no, because she's not fat anymore. If a poor person starts making money, they don't still get the tax rate of the poor.

As far as you not feeling you're blessed in that, we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, you made a decision to do what you do, but you were in a situation where you were able to decide. Many of the people in these situations are not able to decide. You have to have money to make money. People can't just up and move with no means to do so. People can't quit their jobs and start anew without the funds to support themselves in the process. Many of us live paycheck to paycheck - there's no capital in the bank to support a life change. It's bit by bit, piece by piece, and more often than not it takes an undeterminable amount of years before you can even use a spoon to dig yourself out of the massive hole you're in.

If it weren't for Scott all those years ago, I'd probably be in the same situation as my mom, and the same my sister is in now. Moving to WI changed my life for the better too, but I couldn't have done it without the help of that pain in the ass ex bf of mine. I was lucky to have somewhere to go and the luxury of a bf at the time who gave me time to get on my feet. You're lucky that you had the means, too.

Everyone needs a little luck sometimes, and not everyone gets it. You can bust your ass for eternity to achieve your goals and never get there - that's reality. For every inspirational story of perserverence getting someone to the top (or even the middle), there's 10 more of people who lost everything in the process. Those are the people who are forgotten - those are the people who need help and get lost in the muck of selfish people who beg for help and don't need it.

The system needs fixed due to abuse, I agree - but what also needs fixed is the stereotype that everyone who can't pay their bills got themselves there and can get themselves out on their own. Hand ups are exactly what are needed - I don't think anyone here has said anything about hand outs, and that's not what the Obama administration is aiming for.

[Minrott]

Clakar: That's where we differ. You are under the belief that some people are poor and incapable of anything. Your blind disgust and self hate is disguised as charity for those who can't help themselves. You are the worst kind of liberal, the one who believes "some animals are more equal than others." I on the other hand see everyone as an equal, with the right to be prosperous on their own account, and not kept in the squaller of society by a pittance of government handout. Redistribution of wealth is a self fulfilling prophecy, one that your kind uses to keep others "in place." People that don't need your kind charity earn your hate, because by not depending on you, you have no control over them. How very Christian of you.

Really, you see everyone equal do you. How about the vet with no legs, So vets with no legs aren't capable of providing for themselves? That's demeaning.or the homeless adult with a 5th grade education,Homeless does not mean helpless. I am not to be penalized for choices this person made or the auto-worker with 30 years on the job and knows nothing else but what it was he used to do?Again, why am I penalized for his choices? What about those folks Minrott, are they all your peers?Everyone of them. They're American, they're human, and they all have the ability to change their position.

Your narrow minded blinders on care about me and not about you. Let me guess, you'd shit on your own mom if she got in your way, right?Nope, I help those around me, rather than depending on the Government to steal for them

My blind disgust and self hate, o rly, LOL. I realize you've never been in a real position of need or your eyes would be open, not closed as they seem to be.It couldn't possibly be that I've had to work for what I have, work currently to better my position, and believe because of that that anyone else can do it too?

I on the other hand see everyone as an equal, with the right to be prosperous on their own account, and not kept in the squaller of society by a pittance of government handout.

Is most disturbing of all. Not everyone is equal and for you to think this way goes to show how little you actually know. Thank you for proving my point.

You didn't answer my question Minrott, are you a Christian?Are you Muslim?

[ClakarEQ]

I think most if not all humans would agree with me in that scentence Minrott. You must know you are probably less than .5% of all people in our country.

EDIT

Why don't you answer my religious question Minrott?

EDIT
I'm Christian

[Martrae]

To address the "Joe the Plumber" guy, I can appreciate the type of work that goes into getting there, but one thing needs to be noted in this situation - paying taxes is not quite the same as those who need help. I can appreciate how hard he works, but the fact will remain that he did not pay higher taxes when he didn't have the money, but now he is at a point where he does. I would say that all people at that level work hard, and they enjoy greater profits because of it. That does not mean they should also enjoy bigger tax breaks. There is an implication here that because he works long hours, he shouldn't have to pay as much, and I can't wrap my head around that logic.

The point you're missing is that who will be willing to work that hard and those sorts of hours if their reward is to be taxed to death? They won't be able to hire helpers either because they won't be able to afford it. So that's less jobs.

[Kramer]

I don't what what the fuck lenders were thinking giving something of value to someone without the means or mentality to keep it

this is the basis right here. no one was victimized EXCEPT THE TAXPAYER WHO IS BAILING THESE PEOPLE OUT.... NOT wall street and not poor people.

they all saw an opportunity and they jumped at it... BOTH borrower and lender knew it wouldn't work but the lenders wanted commisions and the borrowers wanted homes....

the Onion puts it well:

Recession-Plagued Nation Demands New Bubble To Invest In
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/re ... on_demands

"What America needs right now is not more talk and long-term strategy, but a concrete way to create more imaginary wealth in the very immediate future,"

[ClakarEQ]

Taxed to death? WTF, is was already deteremined that Joe wouldn't pay more taxes for several years if at all. McCain put that "Joe" in a world of hurt because of his comments. It was bad enough Joe pretty much lied about his intent and job for the sole purpose of trying to call Obama out.

Frankly I would be 100% ok with a flat tax but my only condition is, there are NO exceptions and NO tax breaks, not even for charity or other, zero zilch, etc on tax breaks.

Funny thing is the rich nor corporate America would never go for that.

[Gypsiyee]

I don't see how it's taxed to death at all - as it's been repeated over and over again, the taxes will be less than what these people enjoyed under Reagan, the republican's messiah.

Let's face facts: the only reason that people scream socialist about the taxes going back to pre-Bush-cut rates is that the proposition is coming from a democratic candidate. Did people call Reagan a socialist?

Bush's focus was on the upper class and look how well we're doing now. I see nothing wrong with restoring it to how it was prior to the Bush disaster.

Also, Mart.. I think that you implying that people would give more to charities if they weren't taxed is almost laughable (and I don't mean that in a rude manner, so pardon the tone through text) - 1. those charities need government help, so essentially my taxes do go there and 2. give an inch, take a mile. People are not generous by nature. You may be, I may be, several people may be, but the reality is that most people are not, especially to strangers who have no effect on them. if if the money didn't get there through taxes, there'd be a lot less non-profit organizations to donate to.

[Arlos]

Indeed, Gypsiee is correct.

All of you railing against Obama's tax plan act like he's setting a 95% tax rate for anyone making 250k or something ridiculous. Please, don't be asinine. Here's what ACTUALLY would happen with people making that much, straight from the tax plan he has posted to his website: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Fa ... _FINAL.pdf

Ordinary Income: The top two income tax brackets would return to their 1990’s levels of 36% and 39.6%. All other tax brackets would remain as they are today. Obama would also restore the 1990’s levels for the personal exemption and itemized deduction phaseouts (known as PEP and Pease). Obama would work with the Treasury Department to adjust the thresholds of these rates slightly to ensure that no married couple making less than $250,000 (or single making less than $200,000) was affected by these changes.

Capital Gains: Families with incomes below $250,000 will continue to pay the capital gains rates that they pay today. For those in the top two income tax brackets – likewise adjusted to affect only families over $250,000 – Obama will create a new top capital gains rate of 20 percent. Obama’s 20% rate is equal is the lowest rate that existed in the 1990s and the rate that President Bush proposed in 2001. It is almost a third lower than the rate that President Reagan signed into law in 1986.

There you have it. Were rich people made poor in the 90s under Clinton? Somehow, I don't recall that. I SEEM to remember an explosion of small businesses, actually, created to take advantage of the internet phenomenon, many of them who grew very large very rapidly. Sure, they were crippled by their tax rates.

As for capital gains, it seems like every right winger here loves to fellate Reagan as some messiah, and yet Obama wants to have 2/3 the capital gains rate that Reagan had, and suddenly Obama is a radical leftist who's trying to over-tax the country? Excuse me?

Ye fucking gods, at least get some facts together before you cry wolf.

Yes, people making 250k a year or more will pay more than they do now. Well, guess what, Bush cut taxes too much on the uber-rich, and it's gone a long way to destroying the middle class, and creating a huge class divide in this country. These changes look like they are trying to reverse that trend, and thus I am ALL for them.

Remember, Teddy Roosevelt's tax and economic policy was based on "wealth redistribution" in order to repair the middle class, and gosh, he has gone down in history as an AWFUL president and massive socialist, amiright? (look at his history of fighting big business, and his "square deal", if you want proof of this)

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Liberals: Darwin for Nature, nurture for Society. What a joke.

Good line, but it doesn't make sense. Liberals don't claim that survival of the fittest is best for society, or a good practise for nature. We just accept that it's true, which you should to because, you know, it's science.

Want to end poverty? Teach fiscal responsibility every year from K-12. Poor kids grow up to be poor adults because they don't have any clue as to how money works, other than that they can trade it for shiny things at the store.

Sounds like a great program for the federal government to tackle. Teach people more fiscal responsibility. I always thought the schools should take more initiative with this myself.

[Drem]

We may never agree, but I'm certain we could always come to a compromise. This, is what I believe is the most wrong of the system. We're becoming so out of balance that instead of seeking middle of the road compromise, we try to get a homerun for our own ideology every chance we can..

man I wrote a big thing about this in some other thread a while back. this is so true it's not even funny. argument as collective inquiry to achieve a common goal doesn't exist anymore. it's just "HURR HURR I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG YOU SILLY FAGGOT" etc etc like 10th grade girls cat fighting eachother

i wish more people thought like you, alex, and i

[Diekan]

I agree. It's complete dumbasses like Clakar that give the intelligent liberals (e.g. Gyps, Arlos, et. al) a bad name over all. This guy hasn't a clue but runs his mouth like he actually knows something (which he doesn't). He really is the worst kind of "liberal."