Interesting clip on Housing Crisis

[Drem]

heh, slander and shit-slinging isn't much better

the idea is that instead of just calling someone a dumbshit, you tell them why they're a dumbshit, with evidence, in the nicest way possible so you can get a real response

unless you're a fan of standing still in conversation and never resolving anything /shrug

[Minrott]

Taxed to death? WTF, is was already deteremined that Joe wouldn't pay more taxes for several years if at all. McCain put that "Joe" in a world of hurt because of his comments. It was bad enough Joe pretty much lied about his intent and job for the sole purpose of trying to call Obama out.

Frankly I would be 100% ok with a flat tax but my only condition is, there are NO exceptions and NO tax breaks, not even for charity or other, zero zilch, etc on tax breaks.

Funny thing is the rich nor corporate America would never go for that.

Agnostic. I'm waiting for a good death so I can sit at Odin's table and feast until Ragnarok.

As for the quote, are you serious? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what the people you champion need. A flat tax of say 15% would ruin them, while the rich you despise so much would cut a check and laugh every April. 15% of $30,000 a year is $4500. 15% of $250,000 is $37,500. Who do you think comes out smelling like a rose there? Good grief man. You can't even get wealth redistribution right.

[ClakarEQ]

I agree. It's complete dumbasses like Clakar that give the intelligent liberals (e.g. Gyps, Arlos, et. al) a bad name over all. This guy hasn't a clue but runs his mouth like he actually knows something (which he doesn't). He really is the worst kind of "liberal."

Diek, bro, you're hurting my e-feelings and shit LOL. Perhaps when you grow up and make something of yourself you'll understand, right now, you don't get it. Please Diek, tell me what I know, I'm seriously interested in how you'll explain me. I realize you're globally experienced and have seen and done more than 100 lives of mine. What is it you do exactly, aren't you a full time student?

My flat tax was an example, it isn't something new, several folks, mainly right wingers would go for and it was something I was suggesting it to show that I'm not so unreasonable to look or entertain other ways to make something work. However to Diek's point, it was a hipshot with little thought and a bit of frustration thrown in. That said, a person making 30k a year would see an increase of maybe 300.00 in taxes. Also, when did taxes = wealth distribution? That sure isn't the case today, and even with Obama's plan, I'm sure lawyers will find all sorts of loop holes to avoid big tax increases.

Minrott, what I don't get is how you think or why you think it and you've not really explained it. You've said why you disagree with Obama, why you think large government is bad along with several other points. You've said pretty much that if folks can't fend for themselves they should be left to die. You've made several points that show a tremendous lack of compassion for people. You say folks are 100% equal yet you know this isn't true (a child born to a family with millions will not have the same opportunities of a child born and brought up in foster care). Drive, motivation, skill, talent, these are not things that are all genetic, these are things that are taught and learned from your environment. My question on religion was to help me understand why you feel or think this way. Personally I feel you're "broken". Not in the sense of mentally disturbed or anything like that, just broken and jaded and I was attempting to understand why. My image of you is seriously like some dude in Red Dawn but with a twist, you're not worried about anyone else, you're only worried about you, and shockingly to me, you feel this is 100% correct and that everyone should think this way.

I'm am making several assumptions here Diek, so please correct me where I've made a mistake;
When you get your bachelorette or masters or what the fuck ever you'll get, understand that you really don't have the exposure that many of the other adults here have. You can read all you want, you can gather all the history you like, that's all good. But you don't have the first hand experience. When you don't get that job you want, when you find out that 8 years from now you're still paying off the school loan. When you have that job that had zero to do with your studies. When you find that special lady and start a family, when you have a home and are a contributing person to your community. Then lets talk, lets see how you've grown. You are a book smart fellow, I won't deny you that, but you do not have seem to have real world experiences, sorry bud.

I don't dislike either of you, I don't agree with everything you think or say, as you don't agree with me and my thoughts, and that's ok.

Now Diek, right me a small biography of who you think I am. Be good student now. I'll let you know if you fuck it up

EDIT, hey Diek, i guess I have it / you wrong, so help me out and correct me, I thought I had asked you before about being a student, I don't recall you correcting me on that.

[Tossica]

I thought he was a biologist

[Harrison]

Lol as much as I dislike Diekan at times, you're pegging him as the wrong person.

He's not a 20-something student.

[Tossica]

Oh and I guess he makes over $100K a year and drives a $60K car.

I do remember the days of him bitching about only being able to find an $11hr job and he was certainly singing a different tune in those days.

[ClakarEQ]

Lol as much as I dislike Diekan at times, you're pegging him as the wrong person.

He's not a 20-something student.

Yeah, I think you're right, a little bird told me the same thing. So for that, I'm sorry Diekan, I think I do have you confused with someone else, my bad. I just figured he was with the lack of contributing information and all.

I'd still like you to right my biography though, you seem to know me so well, I'd like a good laugh (and yes, this post is hypocritical LOL)

[Eziekial]

FYI. I'm currently a part owner of an accounting firm and we handle the books for quite a few clients. This includes tax planning and business development. EVERY SINGLE ONE of our clients asks and then plans their growth AROUND the tax code. From the Jewish beauty salon owners barely making 20k annually to the bail bonds agency owner who rakes in over 300k a year. They ALL ask how much more they will pay in taxes if they make more in profit. Many of them have waited a year or two before expanding or acquiring more business due to tax implications. Some don't even bother. We have a client who owns a thai-sushi restaurant. It's awesome. The food is out of this world and they have come to our office DOZENS of times over the last 2 yrs with thoughts of opening a new restaurant. They employ 60 people. They pay them well, provide health, dental, 401(k) matching. It's a family run business and they have almost ZERO turnover. Biggest hurdle for them opening another site? (well now it's the credit crisis but before this mess) Taxes, permits, and licenses. So don't tell me how small businesses aren't effected by government. I see it almost every day. I can't count on the people who come through our doors looking to start a new business only to find the daunting task of getting through red-tape to be overwhelming. In fact, I charge $800 to register a new corporation, get an EIN, and file for state, county and city business licenses. And that's CHEAP; consider it charitable.
Anyway, Minrott is spot on. The system we have now leads to reliance on the government. We are less and less capable of looking after one another and less likely to do so BECAUSE of the system. Rather than feeling good about giving to charity and helping out their fellow citizen, people feel angry because they have no choice in the matter and the charity is taken by force. The methods we are currently using (wealth redistribution through the tax system) to help one another makes the act go from feelings of goodwill and philanthropy to that of resentment and distrust.

[vonkaar]

Now Diek, right me a small biography of who you think I am. Be good student now. I'll let you know if you fuck it up

I'd still like you to right my biography though, you seem to know me so well, I'd like a good laugh (and yes, this post is hypocritical LOL)

[Tossica]

I don't think anyone is saying that government doesn't get in the way of starting a small business. What people are saying is that the claim that rolling back the tax cuts on people that have INCOMES of over $250K a year is somehow going to be disastrous and send them all to the poor house. Boo fucking hoo. They might have to work an extra couple of days during the year to make up for the loss.

[ClakarEQ]

All companies big and small are effected by the government, taxes etc, I don't recall ever disputing that. What I disputed is that an owner will actually fire staff for the sole purpose to bloat their paycheck. That will shrink a business, not grow it.

This goes back to the same mantra I've had for years, if what we have is broken and needs fixing, why do we keep doing the same thing. Why not try something else? It's the something else that we don't agree on. I don't think capitalism, if I can place a label on what we have, is right or good either. I don't get why folks are so scared of socialism, we are socialists in some ways already.

I do see your perspective though. I don't agree that we are less and less likely to do so because of the system. I think we are less and less likely because frankly too many folks don't care about their fellow American. You think the system itself has made folks cynical? I don't think it's the system, I think it's the people and the lust for money.

Since I'm not a huge history buff, this is just a generic question of sorts, when has government ever shrunk? I'm just trying to determine how unrealistic some of the posts are. I'm not aware of anytime in our history, that the government actually shrunk, was less involved, less of anything. It is a constant theme of Reps. and I'd like to know if it ever happend.

That said, and assuming it has never shrunk, any of you that think or want it to, are screwed (btw I do think it needs to shrink in some ways too).

[ClakarEQ]

Now Diek, right me a small biography of who you think I am. Be good student now. I'll let you know if you fuck it up

I'd still like you to right my biography though, you seem to know me so well, I'd like a good laugh (and yes, this post is hypocritical LOL)

ROFL, that was for Diek, he hates that, you spoiled my bait .

[Eziekial]

Government doesn't shrink. It grows and grows and takes on more and more authority until one day the people revolt, dissolve the binds, cast off the shackles and start anew. I've since given up on trying to turn the process around, I now just wish for the train to go faster into oblivion so we can pick up the pieces and try again.

[araby]

Diekan drives a BMW. That much I know.

[Diekan]

Yes. I drive a BMW (araby has seen it).

Yes. I make *around* 100k a year.

Yes. There was a time when I was bitching about not being able to find anything around 11 an hour. Then *I* realized that *I* was in charge of my own future. *I* did what I had to do to reach my goals. It meant putting myself through two degrees (both in Biology). It meant putting in long hours in old jobs while networking where I could. And, I haven't yet reached my ultimate goal. The point is, I did it myself. I didn't NEED the government giving me handouts or other forms of assistance. If I can do it - anyone can do it. In the United States of America in 2008 it is not a matter of means as it is a matter of will. There are far too many lazy people out there who have no desire to do it for themselves. But, rather than taking advantage of the vast means of personal development they choose the path of bitching and screaming about "fairness." It's a crock of shit, period. Hate me if you want, but I'm tired of paying the way for lazy people who won't do for themselves. And I am NOT talking about people who have a legit need for assistance - as I've said before I don't mind my tax money helping them out.

As for spreading the wealth around. That is exactly what Obama has in mind - you can cut it anyway you so choose, but it boils down to his desire to take from those who have and give it to those who do not have. You can make all the claims you want about it only being the top 1 or 2%, whatever. Forcefully taking from one to give to another is NOT what this country was founded upon. It is NOT what the Framers had in mind. It is socialism.

Finally, I hate Bush as much as the next person - but there is a little fact that I think we ALL need to contemplate for a moment. All this blame being pushed off on Bush. We all realize that the real power of the government lies in Congress. I hope we all remember that while the last 4 years have been shitty - guess who was in control of Congress during at least TWO of those years. The Democrats. Of course MSNBC, NBC or CNN will remind you of that fact.

[Arlos]

Uh, Diekan, I hate to break it to you, but *ANY* form of progressive tax is specifically designed to "spread the wealth around".... We've had one in this country since 1913 when we ratified the 16th amendment. So, your argument that Obama's tax plan is "Un-American" has no basis whatsoever, when you consider the power for the government to impose exactly that type of tax is enshrined within the constitution, and has been for nearly 100 years! Of course, back then there were only 2 brackets, and now there are are 6, allowing for finer gradations, but that's detail, not fundamentals. Still, as I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE for something to be Constitutional and yet be un-American, given that the Constitution IS America in a legal sense.

Hell, you know about the 1950s, right? Arguably one of the most prosperous times in this nation, and quite possibly the best period ever in this country for the middle class, yes? Guess what the tax rate was on the top tax bracket then? For almost the entire time from 1951 to 1963, the top tax bracket was at 91%. Can you even begin to argue that America was not a prosperous nation in the 1950s and early 60s? Well, you could try, but you wouldn't get very far. Funny how that directly contravenes your argument about what Obama's tax would do, yes?

Hell, you know what the top tax rate was for most of Reagan's presidency? 50%. You going to call him a socialist for having the tax rate so high on the top bracket?

Again, Obama's plan just sets the tax rate for the top bracket back to what it was under Clinton. Did you see a destroyed economy and the vast wiping out of small business under Clinton? Funny, I didn't, and I worked for a couple in that era.

You are making a huge stink and rant about something that has no fundamental underpinnings. We have been "spreading the wealth around" in this country for nigh-on 100 years now, without the Chicken Littles crying "EEK! SOCIALISM! RUN!" Indeed, at this countries HEIGHT as a world power and economic powerhouse, the "wealth was spread around" from those top brackets at over a 90% clip!

So, you'll pardon me when I don't give one iota of credence to your statement that what Obama wants to do is somehow un-American, yes? Indeed, based on the last 100 years of tax history, what he's calling for is a mild shift BACK to traditional American values, which were destroyed under Bush, by allowing the highest income group to so radically outstrip everyone else...

-Arlos

[Drem]

pwned

post pics of your BMW and 100k a year lifestyle, playboy

[Diekan]

What are you retarded or something? I met Araby IRL - she has seen my car. I am not going to *take pics* of my *stuff* to prove to you or anyone else... you don't believe it... that's YOUR problem... I couldn't care less.

and by the way.... yes... she is exceptionally h.o.t.

[araby]

I did see his car and I think this is all a little silly guys, chill.

I was listening to the radio the other night when the reporter was comparing the differences in Obama's and McCain's plans for taxes and the reporter said that the "socialist" bit is an exaggeration of the truth, and went on to discuss pretty much what Arlos posted.

What any of this has to do with Diekan's car, I don't know...and while that compliment is gracefully noted =) I have to say, all of this has very little to do with the issue at hand. Just saw on CNN that one in FORTY homes are foreclosed (in Nevada), so unless you have a car you can live in, what you drive has nothing to do with this if it happens to you.

[Arlos]

I couldn't care less about Diekan's car. Hell, I drive an Audi, and I have in the past made nearly as much as he's making now, and I probably will again once I'm back working for a couple years again. All of that is utterly irrelevant.

*I* am interested in Diekan's response to my last argument.

-Arlos

[brinstar]

fuck cars anyway lol

have fun paying out the ass for gas, chumps, i walk everywhere!

[araby]

I walk to my second job, it's nice. It'd be nice to have no need for a car at all.

[Trielelvan]

Just saw on CNN that one in FORTY homes are foreclosed (in Nevada), so unless you have a car you can live in, what you drive has nothing to do with this if it happens to you.

I'm not surprised. The average prices of housing out there, Vegas specifically as I know little to nothing of pricing in any other city in NV, rivals that of California (about an avg of 400K)... without California pay. Not even close.
People are just walking out of their homes left and right and leaving the state. Several of my dad's coworkers have moved out of state for cheaper housing, and many of them live in Arizona and commute to Vegas for work.

[araby]

The one segment of the program showed a family who paid 140K for their house, and now it's worth less than that. The video of the home they were in looked nicer than the one my parents have lived in since I was three, and they bought their home for 100K, 29 years ago.

The segment talked about that family's neighbor, who moved in two years later and paid double that for her home, which is now upside down in payment, with the worth of the home being less than the mortgage.

[Harrison]

We bought our house for 120k, the insurance company is trying to fucking tell us it's worth 250k and wants more money.

Bull. fucking. shit. even with the renovations we've done.