Roflz... now even Fox News is throwing Palin under the bus

[Arlos]

I don't know about that, Diekan, without a filibuster-proof majority, LBJ would never have been able to get the Civil Rights legislation through Congress in '65. I don't think anyone will argue against that piece of legislation, hmmm?

-Arlos

[Diekan]

Look what could happen with a filibuster-proof congress now. We can't keep resorting to comparisons between now and 50 years ago. Times have changed, politics have changed, people have changed... If Obama gets his way with everything on his agenda we're going to be in serious trouble (no matter how good his intentions are). Especially with line items like swiping our private retirements, et al.

A little liberalism is good for the country, a little conservatism is good for the country - too much of either is not.

[Arlos]

Ah, but your argument was that it is "never good" for one party to have that much control. I merely pointed out the fallacy in that argument.

Now, arguing that you think it would be bad for Obama NOW to have that much control is an entirely different kettle of fish. Again, I don't know that I agree with you on this, but it is a much different argument.

I am worried at just how obstructionist the senate Republicans could be, if they so chose (and I expect them to). If any time in our recent history is a time that calls for bold moves that may ruffle some feathers, it's now. As has been said before, even if he gets that power and it gets abused, voters can simply change the balance in 2 years.

Furthermore, I disagree with your premise about liberalism being bad for the country. I think, properly applied, it would be a very GOOD thing for this country. For example, one of the things crippling GM right now is having to pay, by itself, for all the health care for all of its retirees, because the current health insurance system has way too high an overhead and can and is gouging the crap out of them. Nationalize the system, and reduce the overhead closer to Medicare's, (3% instead of 20-30% for private health care), and suddenly GM (and other businesses) have much more freedom and capital to work with, since it's not being sunk into middle management bonuses at Aetna, say.

That's just one example. There are many others.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

We can't keep resorting to comparisons between now and 50 years ago. Times have changed, politics have changed, people have changed...

stop bringing up the founding fathers, the original republic and all that other shit then

you can't have it both ways

A little liberalism is good for the country, a little conservatism is good for the country - too much of either is not.

exactly

[Nusk]

the dumbest thing i heard from obama is his health plan

"you can continue to pay for your own or the government will give you a better one free"

now who in the hell in their right mind will pay for health care if they have a free option?

[Drem]

people that think universal healthcare will cost us shitloads of money in the end. which just isn't true

[Arlos]

People who don't feel like the Government plan gives them the same options, speed, etc. as a private plan does? If you are in your low 20s, with no health conditions at all, and are in great shape, private insurance is easy to get and cheap. As a result, it might be more cost effective for you to get your own at that point. Get to 40, have a touch of high blood pressure, say, or some other pre-existing condition, and private insurance not through an employer is either impossible to get or insanely expensive. As a result, the government sponsored plan is probably far more attractive.

-Arlos

[Nusk]

arlos. they tried this plan in hawaii.... apparently what i am descpribing is EXACTLY what happened. people dropped pay medical for free in droves and the hawaii budget couldnt pay for it (shock!)


http://www.examiner.com/a-1642508~Hawaii_ending_universal_child_health_care.html

specifically this part

Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program. A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan

[Tikker]

people that think universal healthcare will cost us shitloads of money in the end. which just isn't true

uh

yes it will

I live where universal health care was invented

it costs a shit ton to run, usually paid in taxes

[Arlos]

Yes, it costs a lot, but I would be willing to bet that total expenditures for a government run system that covers everyone would cost LESS dollars than are spent overall on group and individualized health care plans in this country, especially if the overhead is kept down close to Medicare levels, and currently millions AREN'T covered.

Cover more people for less total expenditure, and let people who really want to spend the money buy supplemental insurance if they want upgraded treatment of some kind, or coverage on things like botox injections or something.

-Arlos

[Drem]

people that think universal healthcare will cost us shitloads of money in the end. which just isn't true

uh

yes it will

I live where universal health care was invented

it costs a shit ton to run, usually paid in taxes

how do your taxes compare to monthly health insurance premiums in the states? and how what about when an accident actually happens? health insurance only pays for so much. universal healthcare is better in every way....

noam chomsky did a huge shpiel about this. the money freed up in the auto industry alone from not having health insurance could basically pay for universal healthcare

may i ask how much you end up paying each year in taxes for the universal care?

[Diekan]

arlos. they tried this plan in hawaii.... apparently what i am descpribing is EXACTLY what happened. people dropped pay medical for free in droves and the hawaii budget couldnt pay for it (shock!)


http://www.examiner.com/a-1642508~Hawaii_ending_universal_child_health_care.html

specifically this part

Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program. A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan

I believe it was also tried in California where it failed as well.

[Arlos]

No, it hasn't been. Not in the last 28 years that I've been living here, anyway.

The Governator has talked about developing one, but it has not as yet been implemented or put into place.

If California DID put one in, I would be all for it, though I'd still prefer there to be a national plan. But no, it has never been tried here as yet.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

may i ask how much you end up paying each year in taxes for the universal care?

in 2006 it was $3000/person

or rather, that was what it cost the government, which is funded by taxes

Wiki entry comparing Canada and USA

[Tikker]

people that think universal healthcare will cost us shitloads of money in the end. which just isn't true

I just want to re-iterate a point here

universal care may end up overall being less costly in the long run because of reduction in overhead, etc etc

the people who will whine are those that have always been healthy and now see paying taxes for something they've never had to draw from as "stealing"

[Gaazy]

I just dont think every single person deserves it. I dont disagree with it completely actually. I dont care if you are working at McDonalds, you deserve health care, because you are putting out an effort to work and support yourself. The people that I wish wouldnt have a shot at it are the ones that have done nothing their lives but leech off society, always having an excuse for why they cant work. The damn problem is people think they are 'too good' for certain jobs, no matter how bad off they are. And that is caused by the so called 'better people' that look down on people like they are king shit. If everyone would stop laughing at less fortunate people at McDonalds trying to work and make some money, there would be a lot more people working and a lot less leeches. Then again, a lot of people are just downright lazy, so if a free ride in the easy, lay around and get myself fatter lane is offered instead, what is there to make them get off their ass to get a job? This country is almost seeming like its giving too damn much.

[Drem]

maybe if people are healthy it'll change their outlook on life. nobody makes fun of a kid that keeps himself clean and works at mcdonald's... they make fun of the fat slobby bastards that can't event ake care of themselves. if someone can't take care of themself, why would you expect them to take care of anything else?

i really think universal healthcare would be one of the best things to happen to this country in a long, long time. it'd end of a lot of grief and needless suffering. and since being healthy wouldn't cost a hell of a lot, you'd see a lot more people going to the doctor just to see if they're healthy. i'm pretty sure a lot of americans don't go to the doctor until they absolutely have to. and a side bonus is that all the sudden interest in health would create demand for thousands of new jobs in the healthcare industry. it could be really amazing if it's implemented properly imo

[Diekan]

You want to wait 6 months to a year to see a specialist if you, God forbid, end up with a serious illness? You want to pay over 60% of your income to the government? That's just a tip of the iceberg. Canadians love to sound off about their health care because it's one of the greatest differences between them and the US - they'll hardly ever come clean with the laundry list of flaws that it has, nor will they talk about the out flux of Canadian patients who come to the US because they can't get the care they need "back home."

Once again our government and the people of the US completely ignore the root of the problem and scream for a Band-Aid over a Band-Aid. Our health care problems are due to red tape, trial lawyers and people who make no attempt to pay their bills.

Instead of jumping in and completely surrendering our health care to an oversized, out of touch, power greedy government why don't we FIX the problems? [They] can pass bills that make it exceedingly more difficult for ambulance chasers to sue insurance companies and hospitals for MILLIONS upon millions of dollars for an overlooked "boo boo." [They] can reduce the red tape requirements imposed on doctors and hospitals to save millions of dollars per year. [They] can institute laws to force people who receive treatment to actually PAY for it. Did you know that almost all hospitals WILL work with a patient that has no insurance to help them pay for it? They'll even reduce the cost so long as the patient shows an honest effort at paying. The fact is, the patient will usually choose to skip out on the bill and spend their money on big screen TVs instead.

Now don't misunderstand... I'm not "in the bag" for the insurance companies; they're guilty of their own mis-doings and should be held accountable and subjected to oversight.

I know this is off topic, but it goes right along with this discussion… Serbians-Oxley is a nifty little piece of legislation that was spawned after the Enron fiasco. Guess what? There were ALREADY plenty of laws in place to prevent an Enron from occurring – they weren’t being enforced. But, rather than actually taking a look to find out WHY those laws weren’t being enforced they simply make a new law and lay it on the ever growing pile. So now companies are forced to collectively pay BILLIONS a year for unnecessary legislation. Give it 5 more years and we'll have another Enron... but when that time comes, intead of looking into why SB wasn't being enforced they'll just another useless law.

The health care system is much the same way. We have problems, but we know what those problems are. We just choose to ignore the problems and strive to completely rework the system – even though it works.

Ultimately, the more laws the politicians have the more power and control they have.

[Sithos]

The reason Canadians go to the U.S for health care is due to the massive amount of specialists. You have near 10X the population that we have and this extrapolates to much more specialists in any given field (by and large). Also the Canadian system treats the most ill first. If you have cancer the system will do it's best to ensure everything is being done to help before taking a patient with the mumps. Certainly sometimes a Canadian will go to the states for treatment that is not available in Canada.

A friend has a son with Phaces Association. The laser needed to treat his hemangioma (sp) lesions is not available in Canada so they make monthly visits to the States for it. Also a wealthy Canadian can buy his/her way up a list for treatment in the States where it is nigh impossible here in Canada. Also there is only the 1 specialist in Canada that deals with this but in the States they have a list of 17 specialists.

Overall I think a Universal healthcare system works fine but like I said before, with any system of this kind there are flaws.

[Diekan]

I posted some time ago a couple of links writen by actual Canadians who disagree with you. But, I can't find them and I'm too lazy to go back and look atm, they're here some where.

I don't know where you got that, but it has everything to do with huge waiting lists and it is not true that the sickest are seen first. I've read many articles of people DYING after having been diagnosed with cancer because they had to wait over a year to be seen.

[Tossica]

Guess what dumbfuck, people die in the US every day waiting for treatment as well. What good does having all of those specialists do for someone that will never be able to afford the treatments?

[Tuggan]

I'd rather be on a list, than no list at all.

[Diekan]

Guess what dumbfuck, people die in the US every day waiting for treatment as well. What good does having all of those specialists do for someone that will never be able to afford the treatments?

Maybe if you started paying the bill every time you hit the ER with yet another case of ringworm, instead of blowing it on schwag, prices wouldn't be so fucking high?

[Tossica]

Uuugh... good one Corky.

[Arlos]

Every single one of my canadian friends disagrees with you, Diekan. For any serious illness, wait times are vanishingly short. Indeed, a friend of mine with a staph infection in his leg who had to go back to the emergency room daily for new antibiotic injections was given a card that let him bypass the line and get seen immediately. Me, here in the US, when I had the same problem, I sometimes had up to a 12 or 13 hour wait under EXACTLY the same circumstances.

Yes, for minor procedures or for complicated major ones that aren't life threatening you might have to wait a while. But I'd far rather that than our current system of going 2 grand plus in debt for a vital emergency room visit when you have no insurance, which is where our system is at.

-Arlos