has obama taken your guns!

[Eziekial]

Absolutely not! You swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. In no way does anyone in the Armed Forces give up the rights they are fighting for when on duty.

As to the statement Griever made about military turning on the government, it's the #1 way governments get overturned; and for this very reason, the ultimate power should always remain in the hands of the citizens. Also, it is much harder to "fight" against your fellow man and have to shoot him dead then it is to just round them up in a police function. Anyone can take the to street and scream about being "oppressed" but to take it to the level of actually taking up arms is not something done on a whim.

[ClakarEQ]

Really, I could have sworn you lose your physical freedoms, it isn't like you can just quit. You also are not tried in civilian courts and the legal system in the military, while I thought was based off our civilian version is not the same. I'm not saying you are not an American, or whatever, but you are NOT the same as a civilian.

I can go tell my boss to fuck off, sure I'll get fired and lose my job, it would be illegal for them to do anything more though, perhaps sue me for some contract I just broke, maybe, but very doubtful.

Go tell your high ranking military 'boss' to fuck off, he can court-martial your ass and be placed under arrest. <- just a guess, don't have a clue if it's true, but I have always been under the impression that statement is correct.

You swear to obey the commander in chief do you not? Regardless of what you want or feel is right, you must obey, and if you don't you can again go to jail.

My point is :
civilian != soldier in the US armed forces
I don't know why you are disagreeing with me.

Frankly being a soldier is more close to a prisoner than a civilian in my mind. You can't leave when you want, you can't do everything you want, you have to go to bed at a set time, get up at a set time, do a job you hate without choice, be taken from your family for longer than you were told, being lied to even though you 'thought' you were under contract, etc etc. Again though I know there is a flip side of all of this, see the world, learn structure, get to play with guns (j/k) ,etc etc.

I'm not trying to paint a picture of the army being a shit hole prison, but I think you're crazy if you think a solder is the same as a civilian and that they both are 100% equal when it comes to our core rights.

I think it was in the past year or so, someone posted here and a debate ensued about I think a religious issue where the army told him one thing, he ended up getting forced to ship out, he said something about "it's against my religion dude" and again if I recall, the vast majority of folks here said he should go to prison for disobeying, yadda yadda. That doesn't happen in civilian life, the worst that could happen is being sued and THEN, maybe go to jail, pay a fine, etc.

EDIT
BTW, I''m not saying your wrong and I am right, I'm only telling you how I think things are, that isn't to say I'm correct and I fully expect those that have served to "correct me".

[ClakarEQ]

bah double post

[Griever]

Being in the military you serve the government as a free man, as someone who has rights under the Constitution. Just because you have become a soldier does not mean you give up the rights and freedoms of every man, woman or child born in the United States. You are held to a stricter set of rules and responsibilities and can be punished in a different fashion, but by all means you have every right to stand up against a government that you feel is no longer for the people.

And if you are a soldier and want to fight against the government are you just going to tell your commanding officer to fuck off? No. You are going to leave whatever facility it is you are stationed at and find people to support your cause. Hell, it might even be other soldiers at your station. Yes, most likely you will get arrested and thrown in jail. But so will regular citizens for doing the same thing. See? Soldiers get treated just like civilians.

So the government has become a dictatorship, they want you to join their cause in oppressing fellow Americans for not obeying the new system. You can either join the dictatorship or fight against it. That is your right as a human being, to make your own choices. If you weren't able to make your own choice, then is that a government worth serving?

[ClakarEQ]

First I want to make sure folks don't take my posts here as some anti-armed forces thing, it isn't. I'm am just attempting to convey that from what I know, you do lose rights, perhaps they are perceived as something else but from someone on the outside, for me, you do. I do see that I'm not being clear, I am using "rights" and after re-reading posts I see I've used it out of context or that it is being equated to the "Bill of Rights". I will agree that at least the bill of rights, the ones I'm familiar with anyway, you do keep. I'm using the word rights in just basic civilian life, or just basic human rights as you say.

In the military:

You can not leave when you want.
You can not do what you want when you want to do it.
You are controlled by military laws not civilian laws and they are not the same laws.
You can be sent to places against your will with no recourse to change it.
You can be lied to by your employer and have no recourse to fight it.
You can be forced to lie or hide the truth with consequences of prison.
(and that is really just a few things here)

I don't get it, you're acting as if you're as free as me, and you're not. Look, I think folks that serve are great, they should be honored for what they do, and I have many friends and family that have served, frankly I think folks in the service get shit on undeservedly plenty. All I'm saying is civilian life and the freedoms we civilians take for granted, you often times don't even get.

You signed a contract for a term, you can NOT get out of that contract without some serious issues and as I understand it (and I could be wrong) it has to be something medical, religious, etc, something "big". Not, "hey, this was a good time and all, but I've been here a year and you know what, this isn't for me and want to go home". No, that won't work, right? However any civilian job, it does work that way.

EDIT
Also, the context of my posts are not in the realm of revolution or what not. I'm saying this from a stance of today, right now, this is what you can't do and this is what I can do.

[Griever]

I guess I just don't know how to properly word what I want to say. I've never been good at writing/speaking/etc.

Yes, those are applicable to a person serving in the US Military as it stands today. You would get punished for any infractions committed against the regulations of the US Military. You would get punished if the US became a dictatorship or if it was a democracy. The difference is that you would accept that you did wrong and receive the punishment and the government would be correct in doing so. The "people" would also support the government in it's punishment of you.

But, the government has sworn an oath to its people, if they break that oath are you required BY LAW to stay true to the oath you swore to the US government? You can decide for yourself if you want to continue serving the military. You can defect, you can stay there and work on the inside with other soldiers. There are many ways for you to oppose the government. Will you get caught? Most likely. You will be punished as a traitor in a dictatorship government. But at that point you are no longer a soldier of the military, you are a soldier of the United States of America. You are a soldier of the rights that were abused and taken away from the people. You are then fighting for democracy. At that point, what do you care about punishment handed down by the current government if you aren't even a free man?

To put it in simple terms and use an example that you used earlier, if your employer decided that he wanted to take away your right to have a 30 minute lunch break and if you didn't agree to it, he would punish you by giving you a pay cut, would you just let it happen? Well, at that point you would just fucking quit and find a better job.

[Harrison]

I don't know if what you say is true, I don't think a soldier has the same rights. For example, you can't do what you want, you can only do what you're told. You aren't tried in civilian courts and military courts do NOT have the same "laws" as civilian.

In alot of ways, when you sign up for the man, you're actually waiving some of your rights, like the right to be free LOL

I am simply amazed at what people believe, and then spout off on a regular basis.

[Foutty]

Military members follow the Uniform Code of Military Justice as well as the Code of Conduct and Law of Armed Combat.

Military members do give up certain rights. For example, I am limited to the amount of tattoos I can have. While on a Air Force base I am not allowed to wear an ear ring (in uniform or out). I can't get a tattoo that says "fuck gay niggra's" or whatever. I can't up and quit. If I'm given a legal order, I must follow it. I can't have a mullet. To do any of these things I would be in violation of the UCMJ and therefor breaking the law. I am prohibited from from becoming a candidate for public office or participating directly in an election campaign for a candidate.

“(The Supreme Court of the United States) has long recognized that the military is, by necessity, a specialized society separate from civilian society…(t)he rights of men in the armed forces must perforce be conditioned to meet certain overriding demands of discipline and duty.”
Parker v. Levy, 1974

[ClakarEQ]

Harri, you realize if you read what I wrote and then what Griever wrote (whom is in the service as we speak, at least as I understood it) agrees with me, at least in the context of my examples.

Don't take the word "rights" as in bill of rights or constitutional rights, but as basic human rights. You will soon see what I mean, this isn't like going to school, this isn't like a job, and it sure as fuck isn't the same as civilian life, don't be naive.

I'm amazed the number of folks that sign up actually believe what they're told.

You just try to leave whenever you want, or go to the bar whenever you want, or stop yourself from going to Afghanistan. What you must have missed in the fine print is they can send you and place you wherever they want. Like that medical position you're going for, you understand they can take that away, right? You understand they have the power to put you on the front line, right?

That is one of the reasons you deserve a bit more respect than you get around here. I think you'll be a whole new person when you get out. I think you'll see and experience things that most folks won't ever have the chance to see. The thing is, some of your expeiences will not be by choice, but by force.

[Harrison]

Not at any time did I waive my right to be free. I joined of my own free will and took the oath voluntarily, while being free.

You're right, I can't leave "whenever I want" but, I did give my commitment for 8 years. So it's not like I'm being held against my will, I GAVE them my time willingly and I intend to see it through.

[Griever]

I heard something interesting today from a friend of mine who has a bachelors degree in history. Those that join the armed forces do not swear an oath to the government, they actually swear an oath to the Constitution.

Keep in mind I did not look up the validity of this statement.

Clakar, I am not in the service nor have I ever been. Sorry if anything I said made you believe that.

[Foutty]

I, (name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God.)

[Harrison]

There is a small addition for those in the National Guard as well.

It just adds your state and governor.

[araby]

Does the President swear to this as well, being the Commander-in-Chief?

[Foutty]

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[Narrock]

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

I don't see how Obama will be able to utter those words without cracking up, or having his fingers crossed behind his back as he says them.

[Harrison]

I sometimes think you're on drugs that you're so deluded at times.

[Evermore]

mindia is one of the biggest whackjobs i know.

Where do you come off with this crap?

[brinstar]

I sometimes think you're on drugs that you're so deluded at times.

you're half right

he did so many drugs back in the day that he fried his grey matter with a side of bacon

you don't ever really recover from that kind of drug abuse

[Harrison]

I sounded like a dick saying it, but I mean, shit...you can't be 100% sane and believe half the shit you spew.

[Eziekial]

I'm not going to reply to everything you posted Clakar but I want to cover the issues below you posted and address the general nature of your point. You kinda mentioned it in that the "basic bill of rights" is still covered. The following comes from my 12 years as a Navy Officer. I don't propose to know every legal wrinkle but I have knowledge of the daily application of these questions:

You can not leave when you want. You can quit but with it comes consequences. Leaving the military under anything other than a "Honorable Discharge" is a big black mark on your permanent record. Just like when you default on any major obligation or break a contract.
You can not do what you want when you want to do it. Please clarify this issue. I'm not sure I understand what "restriction" you are trying to paint here.
You are controlled by military laws not civilian laws and they are not the same laws. Actually, we are governed by both sets of laws and they are very similar.
You can be sent to places against your will with no recourse to change it. There is a couple of resources to changes in duty station for our sailors. They can appeal a change and actively take part in the selection process.
You can be lied to by your employer and have no recourse to fight it. A sailor has access to a legal recourse if he has been mislead or lied to.
You can be forced to lie or hide the truth with consequences of prison. Never can you be forced to lie, cheat or steal. EVER.

[Naethyn]

Not at any time did I waive my right to be free. I joined of my own free will and took the oath voluntarily, while being free.

You're right, I can't leave "whenever I want" but, I did give my commitment for 8 years. So it's not like I'm being held against my will, I GAVE them my time willingly and I intend to see it through.

holy shit 8 years? that's what they want now days? that's insane.

[Harrison]

No, that's what I chose. I get the most out of it that way. (More $$, training, benefits, etc.)

[Kramer]

there are lots of benefits, home loans, student loans, stay in reserves and you can build up retirement, etc.