Jury duty

[KaiineTN]

Civic duty is severely flawed when it is widely accepted as mandatory. No person or groups of persons has claim over any other person or group of persons' time, property, labor, etc. All exchanges made must be voluntary, or freedom becomes nothing more than an illusion. It is a good thing to have a sense of civic duty and to be willing to participate, but being forced is an entirely different matter. I would be much more willing to participate if I was given the option not to, but when I am not given that option, I am much more inclined to fight against what is being forced on me. Is this logic so difficult to understand?

Besides, law, at its core, is meant to do what? Protect and preserve liberty, correct? Liberty, therefore, is above the law, and in the name of liberty I am willing to ignore, fight, and disobey the law.

[brinstar]

are you fucking kidding me???

it's jury duty, not a fucking concentration camp

quit your whining and do it, you fuckjob, and try giving SOMETHING back to society

christ, sometimes i wish there was still a draft

[Harrison]

christ, sometimes i wish there was still a draft

I've been saying that for years lol

I think people in this country are far too complacent with their little sphere's of influence. No perspective...

Edited P.S.

I still half-agree with him on a certain level. He's just taking this way too far.

[Spazz]

Fight the power brother

[Tuggan]

what the fuck happened to my osama bin laden smoking the spliff avatar? fucking lyion.

[Eziekial]

Anyone arguing that Jury duty is a civic duty and Kaiine should just STFU; should be totally on board with a draft. I, for one, am totally against mandatory jury duty or military service.

[Gypsiyee]

I guess I don't really see how those are even remotely comparable. Spending a few days, more often a few minutes, of your time in an office setting simply having to answer a few questions and forcibly altering the entire course of your life, sending you away for undetermined amounts of time, and potentially risking your life are not even remotely in the same scope, I don't think.

perhaps we should just have voluntary taxes as well. after all, how dare the man require you give anything back. let's just set up a special little pot for people to donate what they feel they can afford and see how well that turns out.

The attitude seems to have blossomed from RP obsession, to be honest. I like him just fine, but this "hate the government, just say no to rules and regulation!" attitude the passion for him seems to have bred is a little over the top. The line for some people between anarchy and liberty has been so smudged together that it's no longer recognizable.

Being overly paranoid about simple civic duties that have been in place since forever just because it's a minor inconvenience is baffling. Had he had the sense to explain the school situation rather than railing against the man based on some anti-government tirade, he could've easily gotten out of it. It's not even that big of a deal. Jesus.

[ClakarEQ]

Hey, how about next time kaiine gets into to trouble, just put him in jail, I mean who gives a fuck about trials and judges and shit, just throw anyone you think is a wrongdoer in jail, problem solved.

[Arlos]

Yep, he's not down with that whole "presumed innocent" and "constitutional right to trial by jury" nonsense. That's THE MAN keeping him down! Damn that evil Constitution, we should just get rid of the whole thing!


Let me try this one more time: The constitution guarantees you a right to a speedy trial by a jury of your peers. A jury is supposed to be made up of completely impartial individuals, or as close to that as possible. There being no other way to ensure impartial representatives, members of the citizenry are selected at random to serve. That service is the infinitessimally small civic obligation you have by being a citizen of this country, in return for the criminal rights guaranteed you under the Constitution. Allow everyone and anyone to just not show up for no reason, you'd never get jury panels assembled, or you'd only get panels put together with people with ulterior motives.

Oh, by the way, you know that if you actually get empnalled onto a jury, you aren't there gratis? You do get paid for your time. It's not much, federal jurors get $40 a day, different states pay different amounts, but almost all employers will pay the difference, since you and they are both obligated by law for you to be there. So again, we're hardly talking about slave labor here....

The fact you are making a big deal of this, and crying wolf about your "liberty being oppressed" is utterly ridiculous.

-Arlos

[Drem]

as a student myself, i would've never made this post, to begin with. then, i would've taken my papers and enough made-up scheduling conflicts to my professor to get the date of my final postponed. school isn't above the law, man. your professor would never say no to rescheduling your final if you show him the summons. and in the end you probably won't even get called in to do it. i didn't, anyway

every single person around you has done or will do jury duty. so get over it. i can't believe you'd rather go take a final than earn $10 and sit in a court house for a couple hours

[KaiineTN]

Allow everyone and anyone to just not show up for no reason, you'd never get jury panels assembled, or you'd only get panels put together with people with ulterior motives.

So your answer, then, is forcing people to do it against their will and at their inconvenience? If people are unwilling to participate, it means the compensation isn't good enough. If it was satisfactory, it would be a voluntary exchange with sufficient supply for the demand. Forcing people into it shouldn't be the answer. You could, for example, offer tax credits to those who choose to be a juror when notifications go out. Sounds a lot more reasonable to me than coercion!

perhaps we should just have voluntary taxes as well. after all, how dare the man require you give anything back.

Actually, I like the sound of that. Your income shouldn't be taxed. You are taxed when you purchase, you are taxed when you sell, businesses are taxed, gas is taxed, imports are taxed, you're taxed through inflation, you are taxed when you earn, etc. We could do without the last one and still be just fine in this country, and we'd probably have an improved economy as well.

I'm not some conspiracy theorist thinking the government is out to get me, or that the man is keeping me down. All I'm saying here is that the government has crossed the line in my book when it forces me, or anyone else for that matter, into any type of service.

[Foutty]

Here's the real deal: You're lazy and crying because you are being inconvenienced at stressful time in your life (finals).
Here's the solution: Quit being a twat, man up and go do your duty. The world isn't going to end, your life isn't going to crumble into a thousand tiny pieces because you had to give up a few hours of your precious time.

Or you can keep on RAGING against the system, crying about how the man is forcing you down and taking away your liberties. You're screaming at a wall.

[Arlos]

The really funny thing is that it's not even a big inconvenience. He said that the jury duty day was NOT on a day with an actual final, so he doesn't even have to reschedule anything. Since all you do if you have an excuse is sit in a big room in a chair for a few hours before going home (if you even have to go in, more than once I've called the night before and told I didn't have to show up), he can spend that time studying, just like he would be doing if not for Jury duty....

I mean, all you lose out on then is driving time to and from. Plus you probably get even MORE studying done that way, since at home there's tons of distractions, where waiting in jury duty there's nothing else TO do.

Oh, and Kaiine, if you only go and get people who are SEEKING to be jurors, there's no way you are going to end up with an impartial jury. Ever. That means whoever that jury is empaneled for is not going to get a fair trial, which is exactly what is guaranteed to us in the Constitution. You know, the FOUNDATION for all those "liberties" you are so inaccurately harping on?

-Arlos

[Trielelvan]

It's entirely different.

I have nothing to do with the civilian justice system.

Incorrect. You're a member of our volunteer military which is in place to ensure that we can actually HAVE a civilian justice system instead of Judge Dredd the Tyrant.

[Drem]

Whoops, I didn't notice that he said it wasn't even on a day he had a final. That makes this whole thread about 10x as sad for me. What's wrong with people these days? Grow up and get a grip on where you live and what you have to do. Be thankful you weren't born into some country where you're actually forced to do military service or something. Be happy that all you have to do, maybe a couple times in your life, is go earn money and watch some sad bastard get sent to jail or fined

If people are unwilling to participate, it means the compensation isn't good enough.

The compensation is having an unbiased jury. I hope when you go to trial in the future for being retarded you beg to have a walk-in, free-for-all jury so a bunch of people that hate you can come plead guilty. Don't you even get it? Shut the fuck up and go to jury duty LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY

[Harrison]

It's entirely different.

I have nothing to do with the civilian justice system.

Incorrect. You're a member of our volunteer military which is in place to ensure that we can actually HAVE a civilian justice system instead of Judge Dredd the Tyrant.

I knew someone was going to draw that distant line lol

By that same notion I inadvertently ensure the existence of the mafia and drug dealers...

[brinstar]

So your answer, then, is forcing people to do it against their will and at their inconvenience? If people are unwilling to participate, it means the compensation isn't good enough. If it was satisfactory, it would be a voluntary exchange with sufficient supply for the demand. Forcing people into it shouldn't be the answer. You could, for example, offer tax credits to those who choose to be a juror when notifications go out. Sounds a lot more reasonable to me than coercion!

So your argument, then, is that "you don't wanna" and "you're too busy"? If people are unwilling to participate, it means their appreciation of what it means to live in America isn't good enough. If it was satisfactory, it would be an easy thing to go perpetuate the liberty and fairness we have in this nation. Forcing people into it SHOULDN'T be the answer, indeed, because they shouldn't NEED to be forced in the first place.

bottom line is that yes, our government does a lot of shit that we shouldn't stand for. it starts preemptive wars, wastes billions of our dollars, and writes blank checks to megacorporations. there are lots of things they impose upon its citizens that you could make a compelling case against. but jury duty isn't fucking one of them.

so go ahead, dumbass. please! fight the power, rage against the machine, and stick it to the man if it makes you feel like a freedom force! just don't be surprised when you get slapped with a fine and tossed in county lockup for fucking off the ONLY occasion the government actually asks for your time. you want to live in a country without juries? then get the fuck out of this one.

[KaiineTN]

You do not understand my argument in the slightest if you think it comes down to me simply not wanting to do it.

I agree with you though, we shouldn't need to force anyone to into civic duty. Citizens should be willing to out of a sense of responsibility to their communities and country. However, even acknowledging that doesn't in turn mean that I should go along with it in its current state where I am actually coerced into civic duty.

Again, I say, give me the option to say no, and I will be much more likely to say yes.

[Gypsiyee]

It's entirely different.

I have nothing to do with the civilian justice system.

Incorrect. You're a member of our volunteer military which is in place to ensure that we can actually HAVE a civilian justice system instead of Judge Dredd the Tyrant.

I knew someone was going to draw that distant line lol

By that same notion I inadvertently ensure the existence of the mafia and drug dealers...

the line is not distant at all, it's a direct connection - as a soldier, you are directly defending the constitution of this country and the rights set forth therein.

the army oath:

I (insert name), having been appointed a (insert rank) in the U.S. Army under the conditions indicated in this document, do accept such appointment and do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, so help me God.

the 6th amendment guarantees our right to a speedy and public trial by a jury of our peers, and you are directly responsible to defend that right.

nowhere in the constitution does it defend our right to be mafia members and drug dealers to my recollection. now that's a distant line.

[ClakarEQ]

You do not understand my argument in the slightest if you think it comes down to me simply not wanting to do it.

I agree with you though, we shouldn't need to force anyone to into civic duty. Citizens should be willing to out of a sense of responsibility to their communities and country. However, even acknowledging that doesn't in turn mean that I should go along with it in its current state where I am actually coerced into civic duty.

Again, I say, give me the option to say no, and I will be much more likely to say yes.

Your statement makes the assumption that enough folks will say yes. You leave far too much to assumption and the expectation is that you'd get a fair and impartial jury. This is impossible without forced duty. A better question in place of you pointing out a problem what is your solution? Know that having the option to say no, is NOT a solution, it is part of the problem.

Harri, enrolling in the military is not the same as jury duty. As an example, there is an expectation (law) that ALL Americans WILL perform jury duty, many cop-out but I'd say more do not and comply with the expectation (law). Being part of the armed forces is first, voluntary (for now) and second, there is no expectation that every American will enroll. So in that regard, civic duty is "worse" than enrolling into the military. Where the diff comes in is once you sign the paper to join the military, and as I have already mentioned, you become a voluntary prisoner (and this is NOT a dig on you or any other military person, it's just the reality of it).

[Arlos]

You do not understand my argument in the slightest if you think it comes down to me simply not wanting to do it.

That's just it. You don't *HAVE* an argument. You have a whine. Our CONSTITUTION, you know, that thing that forms the basis for our government, yes? It guarantees us the right to a speedy trial by an impartial jury of our peers. You got that?

Now, how, exactly, would YOU suggest creating impartial juries of average citizens, given that such is constitutionally required?

If everyone can freely opt out, or worse, ask for volunteers, the only people serving on juries are those who WANT to be there, and may or may not have some personal vendetta or axe to grind. What is to stop, say, KKK members from volunteering for jury duty any time a black guy is on trial, just specifically so that they could vote guilty to "send that n****r to jail!" regardless of what the merits of the case are?

No, you're just peeved because you have a responsibility that you don't want to meet because doing so requires some trivial amount of effort on your part, and HOW DARE THE MAN DO THAT! To repeat, that's not an argument, it's a whine, and a particularly juvenile one at that. You don't sound like an adult arguing a position, with evidence and fact and logic to support you, you sound like a 6 year old who's having a temper tantrum because he's just been told to clean his room or he won't get any cake.

-Arlos

[Drem]

You do not understand my argument in the slightest if you think it comes down to me simply not wanting to do it.

I agree with you though, we shouldn't need to force anyone to into civic duty. Citizens should be willing to out of a sense of responsibility to their communities and country. However, even acknowledging that doesn't in turn mean that I should go along with it in its current state where I am actually coerced into civic duty.

Again, I say, give me the option to say no, and I will be much more likely to say yes.

Look I mean this in the most endearing way possible because this is the first time you've made me go "what the fuck?" in a long time, but....

What the fuck? Citizens are willing to do it out of a sense of responsibility. That's why we all go and do it in the first place.... BECAUSE IT'S EXPECTED OF US. And I do, quite literally, mean all of us. I hope you realise how much of a pussy you're making yourself look like. Do you know what responsibility means?

And I don't even think you understand your argument, because all this comes down to is you simply not wanting to do it. Sounds like you wish jury duty were more like donating plasma or something. I hope you grow up and understand it more someday. And I really hope you're not retarded enough to pull a no-call, no-show on the court. This isn't like skipping a day of work at McDonald's. Especially when you don't even actually have a final on the day you're supposed to go.... what a whiner! You could've handled this situation a lot better

[Drem]

Oops, I think arlos paraphrased it better for me. You don't have an argument, you have a 'whine'. Just like a six year old that got told to clean his room ahahaha. And I just got a great gorgonzola the other day if you'd like that and some crackers to go with it

[Eziekial]

[quote="Arlos"][quote]You do not understand my argument in the slightest if you think it comes down to me simply not wanting to do it.[/quote]

If everyone can freely opt out, or worse, ask for volunteers, the only people serving on juries are those who WANT to be there, and may or may not have some personal vendetta or axe to grind. What is to stop, say, KKK members from volunteering for jury duty any time a black guy is on trial, just specifically so that they could vote guilty to "send that n****r to jail!" regardless of what the merits of the case are?

-Arlos[/quote]

If you honestly believe this would be the case then what are you fighting to save here? A nation of bigots and racists fucks on one side and lazy, apathetic morons on the other? If that is your view of your fellow citizens then why are you so hell bent on persevering this institution? By your very argument you make it clear it's not worth fighting to protect!

[Arlos]

You miss my point. Sure some people will volunteer for juries for the right reasons, but how can we know which those are? How can you tell between someone who volunteers out of a well-developed sense of civic duty and someone who claims to be doing it for that reason, but in reality is doing so for ulterior motives? I'm not even saying that bigots using it for their own ends would even necessarily be common. But if we all have a right to a fair trial, and a volunteer-only system of jury selection cannot even come close to guaranteeing that, and another system can come much closer to it, then obviously we need to use the method that comes closest, even if it has flaws and causes people inconvenience.

-Arlos