Ron Paul on President Obama's Stimulus Package

[Naethyn]

Congratulations. You can cut and paste from the Ron Paul website.

Did you even look at that study from Moody's I posted in the other thread? The one that shows that, gosh, federal funding DOES stimulate the economy, up to 5-10 times MORE than tax cuts do?

Hell, have you even read stuff from economists OUTSIDE the Ron Paul clique? Try reading, say, Krugman sometime. He is, after all, a Nobel Laureate. How about Warren Buffett? He's only regarded as perhaps the most savvy investor alive.

Unregulated Lassaisz-faire market-knows-best policy has been tried. IT DOESN'T WORK. PERIOD. First it gave us monopolies and trusts like Standard Oil, and right now, deregulation is a huge part of what got us INTO this mess. No one forced any of the financial companies to engage in trading complicated derivatives that no one understood, no one forced them to set their pay and bonus structure to encourage quarterly thinking instead of long-term planning, but perhaps if real regulation and oversight had been in place they could have been STOPPED from doing so before the damage was done.

Let the rich have their way and remove their restraints gave us the current destruction of the middle class that we're seeing. Just about never has the gap between the richest 1% and everyone else been wider.

So no, the kind of economic policy you parrot is *NOT* one we should pursue, as it helped create this disaster, and is utterly incapable of fixing it. All it accomplishes is to make the ultra-rich even richer, while the rest of us just have to hope particularly choice morsels make it into the dumpsters. Hell no. You had your chance. Time for a new policy.

-Arlos

P.S. Mindia, the chief economist of Moodies disagrees with you rather completely. I call your attention again to: http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/docum ... 012109.pdf They did significant research, and found that exactly the kind of spending the Democrats are pushing for helps the MOST, and the tax cuts the GOP pushes for help the LEAST. And, sorry to say this, but if you try and label Moody's as some sort of liberal organization, I will be forced to a great deal of mirthful laughter, as they are nothing of the sort.

Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul42.html

[Naethyn]

This is probably the worst bill that has been put forward since the 1930s. I don't know what to say. I mean it's wasting a tremendous amount of money. It has some simplistic theory that I don't think will work, so I don't think the expenditure stuff is going to have the intended effect. I don't think it will expand the economy. And the tax cutting isn't really geared toward incentives. It's not really geared to lowering tax rates; it's more along the lines of throwing money at people. On both sides I think it's garbage. So in terms of balance between the two it doesn't really matter that much.

[Arlos]

Naethyn, did you read that article from Moody's chief economist? How about anything from Krugman also strongly in support? I dunno, I trust a study that looked over past federal spending to see what ACTUAL effect it had and use that as a basis over pure ideological ranting from Ron Paul and others.

And we HAVE had unfettered markets in this country. They gave us Carnegie, Standard Oil, William Randolph Hearst, and a few others of their ilk, including functional monopolies. I dunno where Flink got the notion that monopolies only exist with the help of government, because that's sheerest bullshit. Just look at the late 1800s. Government had to step in to *STOP* the monopolies, because monopolies are never good for the consumer.

Hell, look at the phone company if you want an example of how bad monopolies are for the consumer. The phone company was the one legal monopoly in this country for decades, and as a result, you couldn't even buy your own telephone, you had to lease them. The internet wouldn't exist if the phone company hadn't have gotten broken up, because they consistently refused to make any sort of upgrades that would have facilitated high speed communications. ALL of the explosion of phone options, calling options, and high speed access over phone lines is the direct result of the government reversing itself and breaking up that monopoly.

Hell, if not for the government stepping in to rein in Microsoft's increasing trend towards monopoly, do you honestly think Firefox would run on windows, for example? Do you think Intel or AMD would make processors for any other operating system? Do you think Apple would still exist?

So no, don't spout off to me that government only creates monopolies, as it just proves how little you actually know as opposed to demonstrating what you can regurgitate after drinking the Ron Paul kool-aid.

-Arlos

[vonkaar]

All I gotta say is...

[KaiineTN]

Lawl, 02.

[Harrison]

Niggers would never hit a man from behind for no reason.

[Naethyn]

The current recession is a result of overspending from the last few decades. Spending more money does not solve the problem. We spend to much money. That's why we are in a deficit. This idea of the failure of capitalism is just a red herring for a much greater plan.

[Naethyn]

[mappatazee]

that guy is talking about events in _september_, if anyone can remember longer than 1 week into the past things were pretty rough at the time. do you remember hank paulson blinking and stammering asking for a blank cheque to 'plug the dike'? of course the general public didn't get it then and still doesn't. congress has oversight of the treasury AND the SEC which allowed credit to balloon in un-regulated markets (and even fostered and promoted it). this means they are responsible for what happens with taxpayer money. and considering nanci pelosi, john kerry and so many other fat-cats in congress stand to lose the most money from a financial crisis and general stock market downturn, i see a huge conflict of interest. they are fucking baffoons and should be on the street like the bums they are.

[Naethyn]

Actually, congress does not have oversight of the FED. It is not a public entity. The FED is about as federal as fedex.

[ClakarEQ]

Along the lines of the post / chart Arlos has, this is a similiar yet broader view:

[mappatazee]

Actually, congress does not have oversight of the FED. It is not a public entity. The FED is about as federal as fedex.

uhm, the federal reserve act was enacted by congress. you can read it here: http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/fract.htm
i think that's at least a little more federal than fedex.

audio is out of sync, but i like this guy

[araby]

It is an independent system and they have the authority to act without Congress or the President.

[Tossica]

Actually, congress does not have oversight of the FED. It is not a public entity. The FED is about as federal as fedex.

uhm, the federal reserve act was enacted by congress. you can read it here: http://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/fract.htm
i think that's at least a little more federal than fedex.

audio is out of sync, but i like this guy

That guy was great.

[KaiineTN]

Except for the whole voting for it in the first place part.

[Narrock]

This porkulous package is a nightmare. There's billions of dollars in it that will not stimulate the economy one bit, but our grandchildren's children will still be paying for it. IMPEACH OBAMA NOW, before he fucks us even more.

but it was ok for that cockspash of a "conservative" president to just hand 700 billion to the banks. Which btw has not done a fucking thing except increase the amount of money that moron stole.

but our grandchildren's children will still be paying for it

I think you are referring to this worthless money sink of a war. You know the one thats breaking the country's back and allowing bush and cronies to line their pockets.

Again, you're displaying what an ignorant fuck you are. The SENATE (the majority of whom are DEMOCRATS) APPROVED this. Holy shit! You need a time out to gain some knowledge, and THEN come back and post. Good God, are you for real?

[Arlos]

To be fair, though, Mindia, Bush *DID* request it first, before the Senate got involved. Also to be fair though, what they DID pass wasn't what he asked for initially. To be totally fair as well, though, if Bush didn't approve it, he could have vetoed it, there weren't even close to 2/3 of the senate in support.

Of course, what he DID ask for initially was beyond stupid and insane. The initial request was for 700 billion, to be spent at the *SOLE* discretion of the treasury secretary, with no involvement of any other person or agency. ALSO written in there was a provision that made it illegal to challenge or otherwise dispute those decisions in any way whatsoever, including through the court system.

So yes, basically Bush requested complete 1-man absolute control over 700 billion dollars with not only no oversight whatsoever, but also no potential path to change anything he did, EVER.

Compared to THAT request, what the Senate DID pass was akin to the Magna Carta, regardless of how bad a bill you think finally got crafted and signed by Bush. So, yes, you can blame the senate, but they were acting at the direct request of the president to pass something, and as a result he deserves at least as much blame, if not more.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

To be fair, though, Mindia, Bush *DID* request it first, before the Senate got involved. Also to be fair though, what they DID pass wasn't what he asked for initially. To be totally fair as well, though, if Bush didn't approve it, he could have vetoed it, there weren't even close to 2/3 of the senate in support.

Of course, what he DID ask for initially was beyond stupid and insane. The initial request was for 700 billion, to be spent at the *SOLE* discretion of the treasury secretary, with no involvement of any other person or agency. ALSO written in there was a provision that made it illegal to challenge or otherwise dispute those decisions in any way whatsoever, including through the court system.

So yes, basically Bush requested complete 1-man absolute control over 700 billion dollars with not only no oversight whatsoever, but also no potential path to change anything he did, EVER.

Compared to THAT request, what the Senate DID pass was akin to the Magna Carta, regardless of how bad a bill you think finally got crafted and signed by Bush. So, yes, you can blame the senate, but they were acting at the direct request of the president to pass something, and as a result he deserves at least as much blame, if not more.

-Arlos

Bush did have some retarded wasteful spending in his version too. I'm not denying that. I do think there's a lot of economy-stimulating projects in this new package, but it's still packed full of pork.

[Drem]

it just runs our dollar further into the ground. i don't see how it's good if bush did it or if obama does it. granted obama's might actually save a bunch of state jobs and other stuff, it's still just instant gratification for a much larger problem (we can't manage our money)

[Narrock]

it just runs our dollar further into the ground. i don't see how it's good if bush did it or if obama does it. granted obama's might actually save a bunch of state jobs and other stuff, it's still just instant gratification for a much larger problem (we can't manage our money)

Just watch Drem. If the plan has lots of positive results, then Obama will get credit for it. If it has lots of negative results, the media will blame Bush.

[Arlos]

Well, I know some positive effect it's already having, actually. A guy I know runs a contractor business. Up to recently he employed about 50 people, but he just laid off 15 of them, because business had slowed so much. With all of the infrastructure, school, etc. construction in the bill, he's already preparing bids for some of the projects, and if he even gets part of what he's bidding on, he'll be adding those 15 people back on again, and even hiring additional people on.

Since I can't imagine he's unique, I for one view that as a good sign, especially since construction has been one of the hardest hit sectors in all this mess.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Well, I know some positive effect it's already having, actually. A guy I know runs a contractor business. Up to recently he employed about 50 people, but he just laid off 15 of them, because business had slowed so much. With all of the infrastructure, school, etc. construction in the bill, he's already preparing bids for some of the projects, and if he even gets part of what he's bidding on, he'll be adding those 15 people back on again, and even hiring additional people on.

Since I can't imagine he's unique, I for one view that as a good sign, especially since construction has been one of the hardest hit sectors in all this mess.

-Arlos

He better hope he's not caucasian.

[Gypsiyee]

Well, I know some positive effect it's already having, actually. A guy I know runs a contractor business. Up to recently he employed about 50 people, but he just laid off 15 of them, because business had slowed so much. With all of the infrastructure, school, etc. construction in the bill, he's already preparing bids for some of the projects, and if he even gets part of what he's bidding on, he'll be adding those 15 people back on again, and even hiring additional people on.

Since I can't imagine he's unique, I for one view that as a good sign, especially since construction has been one of the hardest hit sectors in all this mess.

-Arlos

He better hope he's not caucasian.

.........

[Diekan]

alright then porkchop, please explain to us how the market will "correct itself" if left to its own devices

this ought to be good

It wont. Out-of-control capitalism can be tanked for this entire mess. Eight years of the government turning a blind eye to the goings on of what big business was doing and you get what we see.

[Tossica]

alright then porkchop, please explain to us how the market will "correct itself" if left to its own devices

this ought to be good

It wont. Out-of-control capitalism can be tanked for this entire mess. Eight years of the government turning a blind eye to the goings on of what big business was doing and you get what we see.

Haha, pretty sure I've been ranting about the evil of corporate america since I was a kid. We got exactly what we all deserved.