Gun Argument #957

[Spazz]

If only we banned all guns such a thing would never happan again.

[Arlos]

I will merely point out that banning guns is never going to happen, and is a protected Constitutional right. The guy could easily have carried a knife and stabbed him too, since it was a completely surprise attack. The fact that a gun was used is irrelevant.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

shut the fuck up arlos. if you don't want it to turn into a gun debate, delete the comment regarding guns... don't post your dipshit opinion on the matter then try to act all angry admin superman.

[Arlos]

Go fuck yourself, thanks. I was trying to keep something civil in a thread about a tragedy that touched someone here personally. I posted what I did because I feel that random deletions of posts is worse than public warnings. In any case, I ask you to tell me just how many other things I have moderated, if you're going to accuse me of over-modding or abusing my admin powers.

But, anyway, since you find the idea of actual civility so troubling, you got your latest gun argument thread. Enjoy.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

LAST WORD

[Arlos]

Whatever floats your boat.

-Arlos

[Tuggan]

That was pretty quick work there man, big ups to the Angry Admin.

[KaiineTN]

Gun prohibition would likely only result in a larger black market and more violence, just like the drug war, and just like when alcohol was prohibited.

Plus, the good, law abiding citizens would lose their access to means to defend themselves, and the people who did get their hands on guns would feel all the more empowered by them.

I don't see it solving anything. If you're considering killing someone, whether or not you can get your hands on a gun probably wont be the determining factor.

[Spazz]

Arlos there you go getting all fucking weepy. I wasnt bothering Kaiine i was calling you out before you could go gun bashing.

"I will merely point out that banning guns is never going to happen, and is a protected Constitutional right. The guy could easily have carried a knife and stabbed him too, since it was a completely surprise attack. The fact that a gun was used is irrelevant. "

Im glad you posted that. For years whenever we talk about guns you get your panties twisted and im glad to see you say something that makes sense.

[ClakarEQ]

I had to do a double take in that other thread LOL, I would rather Arlos move it than pollute the other post, I agree with your actions arlos not that it's worth much.

Either way, guns are bad and most likely, in my lifetime, they will have have levels of bans, you all know my opinion on this so I won't get into that again.

Since this is going down the road though, who's been keeping tabs on the gun issues and our relationship with Mexico's cartels? There has been some good info off NPR, NBC, CNN, etc. It won't be "killings" that fuck over the 2nd and the NRA, IMO it will be NRA and gun fanboi's themselves that will have shit backfire.

If the laws on the books can't be imposed, regardless of the reason, then they serve no purpose and new legislation will be entertained to "fix" the problem. That is a fact and we see it all the time, laws upon laws upon laws. It is all a matter of time.

I could see a first step being, a ban on gun shows and sales at gun shows being outlawed. Then a ban on all gun sellers that aren't part of some newly created GOV department. Then a ban on specific guns and rounds, etc etc. You all know it starts small, then gets really big (sort of like the patriot act :p )

It would be nice to not have this turn into "you're a freaking nutcase bla bla bla", "why do you want guns bla bla bla". I'm curious if other folks, for or against guns, detect a wind of change because of the face time Mexico is getting.

ramblings, I would rather the US decriminalize drugs, turn drugs sales into a GOV profit center, tear apart all the War on Drugs BS, etc. The net result would be, the folks that want drugs can get them legally (I'm talking adults here not kids /fyi) and the folks that want guns get them. The war on drugs is going to be used as a tool to creep up on the 2nd, this is my prediction.

/ramblings off

Ninja'd I think I tend to be the one that gets my panties in a bundle re: guns LOL.

[Arlos]

*shrug* Still doesn't mean I don't believe that there should be a right to concealed carry. As I have said many times, I have known WAY WAY too many people who were level-headed while sober but with hair-trigger tempers while drunk to ever want to see anyone like that with 24/7 access to a firearm on their person. How many bar fights would turn into bar shootings?

Plus it still doesn't mean that I don't believe that you have to get safety certified before storing any guns at home. Go back to the last thread on this, and my comment about safety training, etc. I feel that that sort of plan preserves the rights to own guns, yet still protects public safety. Nor do I see any conflict with wanting provable safety knowledge with what I said before about the right to own guns being protected.

As I also said before, I nearly saw my little brother killed by 2 dipshits using their rifles in an unsafe manner. If my mom hadn't picked him up from where he was standing, he'd have taken a round in the chest that came right through the wall of the house, flew between our legs under the table, out the end where he'd been standing not 15 seconds earlier, then punched through 1" thick hardwood in an interior divider, before landing in a pot in a cabinet. So yeah, after that, my tolerance for unsafe handling of firearms is rather low. Safe handling is fine. I took a shotgun with me to college the first time around once I lived off campus, and went shooting with friends. Unsafe handling is not, and I just feel that people who want to have their weapons at home should prove they know how to use and care for them safely is all.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

So, this Mexico thing . . . "stay on target"

[Spazz]

Arlos i have the worst temper of anyone ive ever met. Just becuase your a hot head doesnt mean your going to run off and plug someone. I get pissed i yell at someone disrespect them and in worse case scenario hope a fight breaks out. A bad temper doesnt make you a fuckin lunatic murderer dude.Also if anything i think having guns around ( legal ones) makes you have to keep a lvl head, one wrong move and the govt takes your right away forever.

I will never understand you not being for legal concealed guns. People who carry in the legal way usually arent the ones who kill people. When you tell normal people they cant carry that leaves just the bad guys who dont care about the law. I know you got a big brain over there dude turn off your emotions and think this shit out.

[Spazz]

As far as the mexico bullshit goes. Yea it will prolly create another assault weapon ban but prolly wont make a dent in mexicos murder rates. The only way to deal with this problem is to end the war on drugs. It creates nothing but fixed politicions , violence and loss of rights.
Drugs have been with us since man can remember and they arent going anywhere anytime soon. Killing off all the dealers and locking up more people wont make the shit go away becuase its to profitable.


To tie this back to guns .... if we didnt have a war on drugs in this country i doubt guns would be an issue at all.

[Tuggan]

The Mexico thing is going to bring attention to both the war on drugs, and gun control.

Maybe with some kind of grace of god miracle, the two opposing factions in this country will wise up.

You got one group that are all DRUGS ARE BAD RAH RAH, but love them some guns.

Then you got the other group, think many drugs should be legal, but are all GUNS ARE BAD RAH RAH RAH.

Legalize alot of the the illicit narcotics, the criminal element will take a huge hit, and with that huge hit gun violence will plummet as well. All really simple, far too simple for most people to accept.

[Spazz]

Then once its legal they can open a gun range where you can smoke weed and fire off full auto rounds at an osama bin ladin target.

[Arlos]

No, people who carry legally at this point normally aren't, because the process to gain a concealed carry permit is stringent, rigorous, and would, I would think, tend to weed out those who had any likelihood towards misuse, and DOES require proof of competency with the weapon, including safe handling thereof. You notice I've never called for doing away with current concealed carry laws, and for just those reasons.

It is the idea of having every yahoo and brainless dipshit, not to mention every wanna-be thug gangsta type, carrying firearms everywhere that gives me the willies.

I'll give you one example of someone I know who is my perfect case for worries about drunken idiocy. This is a friend, a guy I worked with, who was normally a really cool guy, laid back, etc. He is ex-Air Force, and is a big fan of medieval times, to where he has a small sword collection and armor collection, etc. Just his thing. He was even actually all set to run for Congress on the Libertarian ticket for the district he lived in around here. I was even going to help him run a website for his campaign, etc.

Then, one night, he was at home, got drunk off his ass, his downstairs neighbor (who he didn't like to begin with) did something that pissed him off, and he took one of those swords, and tried to hack through his neighbors door with it to get at him. Completely flew off the handle, temper exploded. Cops got called, he got taken to jail, ended up losing his job in the fallout, all plans on running for office up in smoke, and he ended up with a big fine and a hunk of probation time. Now, what if he'd had a gun? What if he'd had a gun and been out and about when something happened that set him off that bad and the target of his anger readily available? He'd be in jail for Murder 1. I've run into many other people in my time with similar tempers. Idiot fratboy types with egos the size of small planets and brains the size of brussels sprouts. You know the type.

So no, not while too many people think with their balls rather than their brains.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

The thug wanna be yahoos your worried about carry anyway. It sounds to me like your friends the one with the problem not legal gun owners or guns. Like i said i got the worst temper ever and ive never grabbed a weapon and just went aftersomeone cuz i was fucked up. Then again i smoke more than i drink so who knows

[Arlos]

Ahhh, I never said my friend didn't have a problem. That's why he's given up drinking, because he KNOWS he has a problem.

I never said guns were the problem. I said idiots, drunks, thug-types, etc. with no compunctions about using guns on other people having immediate ACCESS to guns is the problem I see with letting everyone carry.

I said nothing about responsible owners. Indeed, I said I am fine with current conceal laws, as they make SURE it is the completely responsible types are the only ones carrying. It is the IRRESPONSIBLE ones that worry me.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

I get pissed cuz i feel you lump us all together. Im a lot of things not all of em good but im a responsible gun owner. I dont like what a lot of people do with guns and what they do greatly effects my rights.

If you think current conceal laws are all good would you vote for it if it came up in that fucked up leftwing haven you live in ?

[ClakarEQ]

To tie this back to guns .... if we didnt have a war on drugs in this country i doubt guns would be an issue at all.

/qft

However, gun shows have been repeatedly brought up in the news, I still have a feeling the shit will start there. Would you agree or disagree that gun sales at shows are a problem? I've not been to one so I can't speak with experience but the news folks make it sound like you can just walk up and buy a weapon, or 10. Anyone in the know confirm the truth to that?

edit
Spazz you're in my hood, Have you been to the gun shows at Gilbralter(sp) before? They seem to have them a couple times a year. I know years ago I'd been to Gilbralter when it's usually full of flea market shit and do recall seeing several tables with hand guns and rifles for sale, didn't look into it at the time.

[Arlos]

I don't think current conceal laws are all good, I don't know anywhere near enough about every single conceal law on the books to ever make anything resembling such a statement. I will say in CONCEPT they are good, though in an ideal world, I would prefer not seeing anyone carry a firearm. Since we don't LIVE in an ideal world, I take what I can get. Would I vote for them? I have no idea, it would depend on the specific law and what it was trying to accomplish.

As I keep saying, I have no problem with responsible owners using their guns in a responsible manner. I simply do not trust the vast majority of humanity to *BE* responsible in stressful situations when they have immediate access to both firearms and the object of their anger. I even think I have ample evidence to back up that opinion as well, given what I have seen in the way of improper use, and what I've seen with people's potential for irrational violence.

-Arlos

[Gaazy]

Clakar - I really cant see that being the case. The gun shows Ive been to, you still had to go through the same background checks and stuff you would at a store. Ive never been to a gun show outside of this state though, so I dunno, maybe thats just here. But here, its the same as at a store, you have to be called in to the FBI database and all that stuff.


Hell, I wish theyd make a safety and handling class required before you can buy a gun, same with the way you have to take a hunting safety course before you can get your hunting license if your born after a certain date. Around here, 90% of the people wouldnt need the course, because we grow up around them, handling and being around them since we were youngsters, but I still think it should be that way. Hell, as many guns and gun owners as there are now, I would go as far as to say that it would be bad parenting to not educate kids about firearms. They will at one point or another be around them, might as well have them know how to handle them, and not be totally uncomfortable and nervous about them. They need to be taught to respect their power and capabilities, not be scared shitless and that they are baaaaad.

[Harrison]

People are too much like sheep these days.

Fear authority, never question it...
Superman will come and save you. There is no need to take your safety into your own hands.
etc. etc.

[KaiineTN]

Why of course, Harrison! Why should we take responsibility for our lives when we can hand it over to someone else and not need to worry about it? Liberty is just a silly concept anyways. Obviously the smarter people in society should dictate what everyone else can and can't do with their time, money, property, and life. Surely those people will have our best interests at heart.