N. Korea stirring shit

[KaiineTN]

Yes, it is insignificant, compared to ours in numbers and technology. Compared to the world's in resources. The country can't even feed themselves.

[Harrison]

So essentially you're alright with any country in the world developing nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them long distances?

[KaiineTN]

It is certainly within their rights to do that. Who are we to say they can't do what we have and continue to do? It's basically saying stfu and be our bitch because we're better than you. But regardless, this is said to be a space launch, not a long distance missile test.

[Harrison]

No, it is not within their "right" to do so. No one should have these things. We know that now, as does most any other nation.

We're not talking about stopping them from baking fucking cookies here. We're talking about creating weapons that can kill millions at once. We should be doing everything in our power to prevent more of such things to come into being. (or the technology/ability to launch them halfway across the globe)

It isn't as simple as "they should be able to do whatever they want." The very existence of a nuclear weapon, and the means to deliver it halfway across the world, is a concern that goes well beyond their borders. To think otherwise is extremely naive.

The world isn't separated into self-sufficient little spheres. Just because a handful own them it doesn't mean everyone should if they want to. That's fucking retarded.

[KaiineTN]

You keep twisting this into a weapons thing when I believe it really was a satellite experiment.

Harrison, I am against this on the fundamental principle of liberty, where I believe that every person, or group of persons, is able to do whatever they choose so long as they are not causing harm to any other person. By all means, if we have reason to believe North Koreans are planning some sort of nuclear attack, we can investigate, but that does not justify the use of force against them because we're paranoid something might happen if we don't. That makes us the aggressor. I fail to see how trying to put a satellite into orbit is a cause for much conern. We should be patting them on the back saying good job, if it really is up there.

Instead, what do we do? Spit in their faces, bitch at them, demonize them. They're bad, we're good. We need to make them conform! They need to be made to listen! Put all this into perspective. This is a time where North Koreans are feeling a lot of pride, and what do you think happens when they hear the world's reaction? All it accomplishes is uniting North Koreans against everyone else.

Things will never improve with this attitude. Just maybe we should let them have their rights, and see if they abuse them, rather than denying them outright because of our own insecurities. Risk is a part of life, and you, me, the USA, the UN, nor anyone else has any right to attempt to get rid of it by stomping on the freedom of others.

They are not stupid enough to nuke anyone. I'd bet my future children on it. Even if they did try, it would be shot down long before reaching its target. The only way a nuke would ever go off is if it was smuggled into its destination.

[Harrison]

Do you have even the slightest grasp on what North Korea has been up to for the past 25 years? (in relevance to nuclear weapons research, missile development, sale of weapons technologies, the NPT, fuck...anything?)

I am genuinely curious if you do. It would seem by your complete lack of worry that you do not.

North Korea, while under a treaty claiming they wouldn't do so, was secretly developing the means to create a nuclear weapon. When they finally did have the capabilities they withdrew themselves from said treaty. They soon after tested their first nuclear weapon, that they were vehemently protesting, wasn't being developed.

North Korea ratified the treaty on December 12, 1985, but gave notice of withdrawal from the treaty on January 10, 2003 following U.S. allegations that it had started an illegal enriched uranium weapons program, and the U.S. subsequently stopping fuel oil shipments under the Agreed Framework which had resolved plutonium weapons issues in 1994. The withdrawal became effective April 10, 2003 making North Korea the first state ever to withdraw from the treaty.

What in the flying fuck makes you believe this missile, the taepodong-2, isn't being tested for military use under the guise of a commercial satellite program? Remember, this is a ballistic missile developed by their military. It is a weapons delivery system. It is not just a rocket.

If they have no qualms lying to the world about developing a nuclear weapon. They certainly have no qualms testing a missile under the guise of some bullshit satellite program.

[KaiineTN]

Worry isn't a sufficient excuse for interference. It doesn't matter if they're testing missiles or nukes or whatever. It doesn't matter if they're lying to the world about what they're testing/developing. They have the right to develop nukes and missiles just as they have the right to put a sattelite in space, and they certainly have the right to be secretive about it and be left alone. Why would they need to answer our questions about them truthfully? Would we answer theirs if they asked us about weapons we're developing, where they are, how powerful, etc.? They don't have the right to use such weapons offensively. We do not have the right to take force based preventive measures under the assumption that they will.

I also believe that the US, and probably most of the world, has been somewhat misled by media sources and governments about just what kind of place North Korea is. There's always propaganda around. Don't assume they're as bad as CNN or the Obaminator wants you to think they are.

[Harrison]

I sincerely hope ignorance such as yours is the product of naivety and not widespread.

[Zanchief]

The American government is going to save so much money when it comes time to program you to hate your enemy. You already have an irrational fear and hatred of everyone who isn’t exactly like you!

You’re the perfect little soldier.

[Harrison]

This has nothing to do with them not being exactly like me at all. Countries' leaders and people nothing like me hold the same opinion I do on this.

P.S. I doubt you have a clue as to what's going on either, so shut the fuck up.

[vonkaar]

Rofl,

the fact that they launched a ballistic missile OVER Japan has completely escaped you...

Flink, if Pakistan were to launch a missle that flew over India and crashed into the Indian ocean, would you think this was cool?

If Cuba decided it wanted to launch a "communication satelite" and it flew straight over Florida, would this be fine? I mean, it's just a music transmission satelite.

The N.Korea statement not only said that it was a benign communications satelite, but also threw in that "it is sending to the Earth the melodies of the immortal revolutionary paeans 'Song of General Kim Il Sung' and 'Song of General Kim Jong Il.'"

Seriously, you read this crap and think it's fine and dandy? It's almost obvious that they didn't care that NOBODY would believe them. Yet somehow, you did. Cuba launches a missile over Florida but claims that they were testing the melting point of gummy bears inside a rocket. Bullshit answer, of course, but... hey, Flink believes em!

[Harrison]

Careful, lest you be lumped in with me.

[Gidan]

While I do certainly have concern for the actions of NK, there really are 2 sides to this that both need to be addressed. The avg person in this country is looking at this while sitting on their high thrown looking down. They are beneath us and are only allowed what we tell them they can have. What right do we or the small group of countries in the security council who are primarily concerned with keeping themselves in power have to tell another country what technological advances they can make. NK having nuclear weapons is a threat to the world certainly, granted so is us having them. We have shown that put under enough stress or in a bad enough situation, we will use them against another country. Do the NK's not have the right to protect themselves? When your enemy is pointing a gun at your head do you fight with a stick because the enemy told you that you were not allowed to develop a gun, or do you develop a gun?

In regard to the fear over the most recent launch, everyone is making a huge deal about the fact they are using a military rocket to launch with. Hey guess what the we used on our first missions to space, Redstone ballistic missiles developed by the US military. The Russians used the Proton rocket and still does which was initial designed as a massive ICBM. Sounds to me like they are doing exactly the same things we did, yet somehow we believe we have the right to forbid it.

[Zanchief]

P.S. I doubt you have a clue as to what's going on either, so shut the fuck up.

I'm curious how someone who doesn't really have any knowledge about anything can become so self-entitled.

[Harrison]

That sure did change my mind about you being a clueless little shit.

[Zanchief]

I'm not sure why you're so concerned. If they do have a nuke they're just going to kill more Asians with it.

Is this one of those things like how Republican's all fell in love with the Jews because they hated Muslims too?

[Harrison]

I'm not sure why you're so concerned. If they do have a nuke they're just going to kill more Asians with it.

Do you live under a rock?
Have you read anything even in this thread?

[Tikker]

We should be doing everything in our power to prevent more of such things to come into being. (or the technology/ability to launch them halfway across the globe)

It isn't as simple as "they should be able to do whatever they want."

you don't get to decide motherfucker


that's the whole point

you guys disarm, then you talk all high and mighty

until then, stfu you hypocrite

[Harrison]

No, but the world as a whole does get to decide. (or the ones that matter)

North Korea willingly entered into the NPT with essentially the entire world, secretly developed a nuclear weapon, had weapons technology trades with Pakistan, etc. North Korea having both a nuclear weapon and the means to deliver it long-range is a global issue.

North Korea has no problem selling weapons technologies, that alone is a major problem for the entire world.

You're obviously far too fucking dumb to grasp this concept.

[ClakarEQ]

Harri, the US breaks all sorts of international laws yet you never see shit going on against us that sticks. I think what NK is doing is wrong and they should have to answer to the global community, odds are nothing is really going to happen over this outside of maybe trade embargos or tisk tisk, shame on you type BS.

You can't disagree with Tikker's point, the US is a huge hypocrit on many many levels.

[vonkaar]

COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHER FUCKIN DAY, YEAH!!

[Gidan]

No, but the world as a whole does get to decide. (or the ones that matter)

North Korea willingly entered into the NPT with essentially the entire world, secretly developed a nuclear weapon, had weapons technology trades with Pakistan, etc. North Korea having both a nuclear weapon and the means to deliver it long-range is a global issue.

North Korea has no problem selling weapons technologies, that alone is a major problem for the entire world.

You're obviously far too fucking dumb to grasp this concept.

If the UN decided that the US needed to dismantle all our nukes or to cease all our weapons technology research, we would give them a hardy FU. You mention the weapons trades with Pakistan, do you really want to look into the countries and terrorist groups we have sold weapons to?

In regard to their violating the treaty, can you really blame them when the US decides to park a few nukes on their door step? I don't think it would be a stretch to say that the US would be the largest most serious threat the NK. We have shown that we are more then willing to invade another country even when the majority of the world is against it. From the American point of view they are a real danger to the world, from the NK point of view WE are a danger and they are being prudent in finding ways to not only defend themselves but to advance technologically.

[vonkaar]

Gidan...

Ignore the "America hypocritally policing the world" (re: not 'allowing' others to have nukes) argument for a second.

North Korea launched a missile directly over the island of Japan.

Japan and N. Korea hate each other. Japan is a close friend of ours - often referred to the "Great Britain of the Pacific." Japan has no nukes, signed the NPT and the CWC, and - outside of the weird porn - they have been an incredibly happy & stable neighbor over the past 50 years. Launching a weapon at our unofficial ally is not cool. Knowing that they are actively trying to build nukes and using our close friend as target practise... not cool. Yeah, yeah... nuke, communication satellite, whatever. They had a whole ocean to launch into but instead launched towards Japan. This is the 3rd time they've done that.

The NPT debate will rage forever. Nothing new. Directly threatening and launching weapons at our allies (yes, I realize Japan isn't a declared ally) is bullshit.

And Canucks, you know that if somehow Greenland developed out of the stone age, decided it hated Canada... and launched missiles into Hudson Bay, the US would freak the fuck out just the same.

[ClakarEQ]

Vonk, the Japs love a good firework show though LOL j/k

I don't know that folks are disagreeing with you Vonk or you Harri but the deal is, you'll only make them pay "so much" because they'll just fall back on sucking China's tit. If we trade embargo, or do what the fuck ever, do you really think it will change what NK is doing?

I may not have read every post you've made in the thread but what do you suggest we or the UN do about it? What does the UN do about these things, bicker and debate for months that may or may not result in trade type restrictions in the hopes that the target country will change. How has that worked with other semi-powerful countries in the past?

If we tried any type of real military action I'd have to think that would be WW3 in the making.

I don't think we are in any kind of condition to start heavy shit with NK, not saying the UN can't do something but frankly the UN doesn't seem to bear fruit at the end of the day.

[Arlos]

The other factor which no one mentions is that technically our close ally South Korea is still AT WAR with North Korea. There was never a peace treaty signed after the Korean war, just a cease-fire. That changes all sorts of things when it comes to legal quibbling.

Oh, and the UN could never demand that the US give up it's nukes, because the US (along with France, England, Russia and China) has veto power in the security council.

-Arlos