Do college "certificates" mean shit?

[KaiineTN]

I notice that local colleges offer certificates that are fairly easy to get, for example, there are some programming certificates and such for as little as 12 credits (Intro Java, Structure of Comp Prog. I, II). I'm just wondering, is that enough to get some sort of internship or entry level position their respective industries, or are these certificates pretty much worthless and equivalent to a college marketing ploy?

For the record, while completing my Associate's degree, I unknowingly completed and received certifcates for "General Business" and "E-Commerce."

[vonkaar]

No. I have seen applicants put that shit down on their resume and it's very . I have so many 'certificates' from various training courses, but I would never put any of them on my resume. At best, I might mention 'the course' if it was specifically mentioned in an interview.

Like, "do you have any experience in subjectA?"
"Yes, I have 7 years of working experience and I was trained on advanced subjectA by random_guru3 in 2002."

[Arlos]

The exceptions, of course, are major ones that require testing to get.

MCSE
CCNA, CCNP, CCIE
CISSP
CNE
PMP
A+

Those kind of certifications will mean something, because they're industry-backed. But random ones you get for just taking a class and not actually having to do anything else, no.

-Arlos

[Gidan]

Much like what Arlos said but even those major Certs will tend not to be a deciding factor in getting a job. We may give a slighly higher salary to people who have them, but you will not get a job for having them nor will you be refused a job for not having one.

In the IT market right now, the only meaningful thing on your resume is your experience. The rest is just fluff.



Edit

You forgot RHCE, far more important then MCSE, you actually have to have a some knowledge to pass it

[KaiineTN]

So, what do you recommend for someone without experience that wants to start accumulating it in a way that would be... marketable?

[Gidan]

What field?

[KaiineTN]

I'm not entirely sure. Let's say something in IT, since I seem to be most comfortable behind a computer screen, and have self-taught experience with programming, databases, data entry, RIA's, etc.

[Gidan]

Find an ISP and do level 1 tech support. If you are good at it, generally you can move out of the position fairly quickly into a position that your better qualified to do. Its a job that requires little to no experience to get and an ISP will have just about every different type of IT department within it. From there you can branch out to system administration, development or whatever.

[KaiineTN]

I was actually looking at a tech support job posting not long ago, but the list of the desireds seemed rather intimidating:

REQUIREMENTS:
Exceptional telephone etiquette
Effective listening skills
Must be able to pass a background screen
Experience or knowledge in the following technologies is desired:
· Active Directory
· Microsoft Office Suite
· Oracle
· Windows 95 to XP and Server Operating Systems
· Linux/UNIX
· Mail client configuration
· Dial-up Networking
· DSL
· ISDN
· Cisco/Foundry Routers
· DNS
· FTP server and client configuration
· IIS5/6
· FrontPage
· MSSQL and MYSQL
· TCP/IP troubleshooting
· Troubleshooting skills
· Can-do attitude
· Customer service skills and training is preferred
· Ability to work in a team environment as well as independently
· Strong written and verbal communication skills
· Adapt to dynamic environment
· Prefer at least a 2 year technical degree to one year of experience

So you think, even not knowing much about most of those, if I go in there with the right attitude and say I'm willing to learn, that's good enough?

[Gypsiyee]

it says desired.. desired != required.

you have to remember that the market is going to be a huge factor right now. especially in tech work, you're going to have to start somewhere - no experience and no qualifications is going to mean unless you can make your "self-education" sound amazing in regards to experience that isn't necessarily on a job, you're almost always going to be outshined by a ton of unemployed people in this market.

a lot of it is going to be in how you write your resume - if you don't have the on the job experience, a chronological resume can only hurt you. do a functional resume with a focus on your skill development and technical knowledge and what you actually bring to the table and it'll look better than I worked here for xyz years and didn't do anything pertinent to the job I'm applying to, but hey look at the bottom of my resume and you'll see a list of a few things that I think I know how to do okay enough to call myself proficient.

so much of the job market is setting yourself apart - if you look like another lemming, you'll be another lemming and get shitcanned before you even get your foot in the door. you need to show initiative - if it's tech work you're looking for, why not do some independent study and get some of those certifications that actually mean something? they might just be fluff, but in your situation they certainly can't hurt.

[Gidan]

I was actually looking at a tech support job posting not long ago, but the list of the desireds seemed rather intimidating:

REQUIREMENTS:
Exceptional telephone etiquette
Effective listening skills
Must be able to pass a background screen
Experience or knowledge in the following technologies is desired:
· Active Directory
· Microsoft Office Suite
· Oracle
· Windows 95 to XP and Server Operating Systems
· Linux/UNIX
· Mail client configuration
· Dial-up Networking
· DSL
· ISDN
· Cisco/Foundry Routers
· DNS
· FTP server and client configuration
· IIS5/6
· FrontPage
· MSSQL and MYSQL
· TCP/IP troubleshooting
· Troubleshooting skills
· Can-do attitude
· Customer service skills and training is preferred
· Ability to work in a team environment as well as independently
· Strong written and verbal communication skills
· Adapt to dynamic environment
· Prefer at least a 2 year technical degree to one year of experience

So you think, even not knowing much about most of those, if I go in there with the right attitude and say I'm willing to learn, that's good enough?

In standard tech support the following are things you will probably never touch

Active Directory
Oracle
ISDN
Cisco/Foundry Routers
IIS5/6
FrontPage
Linux/UNIX
MSSQL and MYSQL
FTP server

Those are all going to fall under senior networking and system administration or in cases list ISDN ancient hardware that no one uses

The rest of that stuff you probably are qualified for just by using your home computer

[Tikker]

Much like what Arlos said but even those major Certs will tend not to be a deciding factor in getting a job. We may give a slighly higher salary to people who have them, but you will not get a job for having them nor will you be refused a job for not having one.

In the IT market right now, the only meaningful thing on your resume is your experience. The rest is just fluff.



Edit

You forgot RHCE, far more important then MCSE, you actually have to have a some knowledge to pass it

I'm going to slightly disagree

if you have a CCIE, you tell the interviewer how much you'd like to make, and when you'd like to start

CCIE is one of the most retardedly difficult certs to get, and one of the very few that's actually worth the plaque you hang on your wall

[Gidan]

I will give you the CCIE, granted if you have an understanding of Cicso Networking to earn a CCIE, even in the current state of our economy, a job is not hard to find.

[Arlos]

CISSP is a pretty potent one as well, as it requires not only classes and tests, but actually working in the industry for 5 years as well.

PMP is project management and like CISSP, requires years in industry experience on top of classes and passing the tests.

I agree with Tikker as well, CCIE is just about "write your own ticket" for getting a job in the networking field goes.

CCNP even will give you a leg up, since it's not exactly easy either.

The others certainly won't hurt you, and may help by matching minimum qualifications, but probably won't get you jobs on their own.

-Arlos

[Gidan]

some day I really should get off my ass and complete the CCNP, but that is just more effort then I want to put in on top of the hours I already put in.

[Arlos]

I had one, but it lapsed when I went out of work for a while, then made the decision to go back to school. If not for that interregnum, I am sure I would have my CCIE by now. Ah well.

-Arlos

[KaiineTN]

So CCIE is really that big of a deal? What sort of work does it entail, and what sort of compensation is given to those with it?

[Tikker]

So CCIE is really that big of a deal? What sort of work does it entail, and what sort of compensation is given to those with it?

CCIE is the culmination of Cisco certifications

obtaining it is 2 part

part 1 is a gruelling written exam

part 2 is building a complete working network from scratch, to precise requirements


80% of people fail the cert the first time

of those that take it again, 65% percent fail the 2nd time

if you can pass CCIE, you legitimately are a cisco networking guru. it's not one you can fudge


CCNA is kinda of the entry level cisco cert
it's possible to pass this with good book study

CCNP/CCIP is where the real certs start. you need to pass exams for 4-6 different courses, and they're all toughish

still could be book studied, but hands on really takes a big part of it here as well (just passing the BGP course by itself is a feat, and generally worth putting on a resume)

[Arlos]

CCIE, you're going to do very high end networking tasks, most likely holding a position along the lines of Network Architect. As for salary, somewhere well into the 6-figure range, and up from there, depending on experience, etc.

To get it, you first have to take a lengthy and extremely difficult written exam.

Then you have to take a $1250 8-hour hands-on lab exam that has an over 80% failure rate for first time takers. This is to ensure you actually know what you're doing in the real world, not just academically.

It is a really really hard certification to get, and even once you have it, you have to re-pass a re-certification exam every 2 years, and attend at least 1 networking conference in that time span. The total number of people with CCIE certs in the world is somewhere not too much higher than 10,000.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

CCIE means you won't ever be unemployed.

Easily 100k+ a year depending on where.

[vonkaar]

CCIE doesn't necessarily mean you know what you are doing, or have experience. I knew an engineer who had rich parents... went all the way and got CCIE+Security before he had his first job. He worked as a level-2 network engineer at a law-firm in Dallas before realizing he wanted to travel instead. So, his technical resume has 11 certs and 8 months of employment.

Just the same, I have a close friend who went 18 years before he decided to get certs. He now has a double CCIE and only makes about $15k more than he got when he was 'cert-less'. He looks at them as wasted money. CCIE is fucking expensive. He passed CCNA the same week he decided to go and get it. I mean, he's totally banking, but his experience counted ten times more than any paper certification.

I'm mixed on them. When I'm unemployed, I think about how cool they might be. However, hardly any certified engineer I've ever met (in 16 years of I.T.) has failed to impress me. I worked with a MCSE/RHCE/Security+/CCA at my last job and he crawled under dusty cubes doing desktop support. His first job paid for his Citrix training, and he left expecting to make $$$. Twelve months of experience with a portfolio of certs doesn't get you shit.

As for me, I haven't had a single cert since I was 16 (Toshiba Laptop Certified Technician, yo) and I'm making good money in a shitty economy. I'll hit a wall eventually, and I might go back to school and get a management degree... but I seriously hope I'm 'not' working for "the man" in a few years... so, that MBA might not matter.

(edited out salary, not the place for it )

[Tikker]

what the fuck is a double CCIE?

[Arlos]

Maybe he got a CCIE Routing & Switching, and then a CCIE in Voip or some other combination of 2 CCIE tracks.

About all I can think of.

-Arlos

[vonkaar]

CCIE Wireless
CCIE Voice
CCIE Storage Networking
CCIE Service Provider
CCIE Security
CCIE Routing & Switching

[Arlos]

Bah, I said "Some combination of 2 CCIE tracks", the 2 I gave were just examples of available tracks....

-Arlos