change you can beleive in

[Nusk]

obama oks torture

wow this is a real big miss, obama sneaks this under the radar on tax day.. could of been a chance for him to show that yes he does beleive in human rights

[Gypsiyee]

obama oks torture

wow this is a real big miss, obama sneaks this under the radar on tax day.. could of been a chance for him to show that yes he does beleive in human rights

1. you seriously got "obama oks torture" out of this? jesus man, reading comprehension not your strong point?
2. he outlawed these tactics in like, the first 2 weeks of his presidency. apparently you don't recall the uproar, or you lacked reading comprehension on those news articles too?
3. he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. you're being shortsighted and aren't really seeing the backlash of if he did otherwise. he has to be a president for both sides. I may not like all of his decisions, but I'm a liberal and understand that if he ruled completely to my side only he'd never have a happy nation (which is part of why no one was happy for the last 8 years). doesn't care about human rights? what in the name of pete..? how does that statement align with anything he's done thus far?
4. We're talking about people who were completely legally compliant at the time - not the people who authorized the sort of treatment (ie, the previous administration) - they may be officers, but their superiors were giving them the go ahead and the issue lies well above them. how do you ethically go about prosecuting people who were within the law? that's some serious risky business.
5. he talked about this on April 16th. When did tax day get postponed a day?


honestly, man, for a second I thought someone else took over your account. what a stupid and blatantly untrue synopsis of the article you linked.

[Nusk]

obama oks torture

wow this is a real big miss, obama sneaks this under the radar on tax day.. could of been a chance for him to show that yes he does beleive in human rights

1. you seriously got "obama oks torture" out of this? jesus man, reading comprehension not your strong point?
the people who ordered this should be brought up on war crimes
2. he outlawed these tactics in like, the first 2 weeks of his presidency. apparently you don't recall the uproar, or you lacked reading comprehension on those news articles too?
yes and he should of followed up with punishment for ALL involved

3. he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. you're being shortsighted and aren't really seeing the backlash of if he did otherwise. he has to be a president for both sides. I may not like all of his decisions, but I'm a liberal and understand that if he ruled completely to my side only he'd never have a happy nation (which is part of why no one was happy for the last 8 years). doesn't care about human rights? what in the name of pete..? how does that statement align with anything he's done thus far?
4. We're talking about people who were completely legally compliant at the time - not the people who authorized the sort of treatment (ie, the previous administration) - they may be officers, but their superiors were giving them the go ahead and the issue lies well above them. how do youethically go about prosecuting people who were within the law? that's some serious risky business.
the nazis who shoved the jews and gypies in the ovens were also completely legally compliant and yes this is the same thing
5. he talked about this on April 16th. When did tax day get postponed a day? the focus was on taxes and his trip to mexico.


honestly, man, for a second I thought someone else took over your account. what a stupid and blatantly untrue synopsis of the article you linked.

[leah]

waterboarding =/= genocide

and you cannot prosecute someone for something that was not illegal at the time they did it. mass murder is ALWAYS illegal; torture was just made illegal. it's apples and oranges. furthermore, i think this is pretty fair of him.

[Gypsiyee]

not even close.

I'm strongly against the tactics the Bush administration employed. Very, very strongly against them and believe that the people who initiated and approved of these tactics need to be indicted for war crimes. People who followed the orders of their superiors are not in the same group at all, though.

I am realistic, however, that the high ranking members of the administration who instigated this type of behavior will likely never be brought to justice because of the type of divide it'll cause within the country - not because "Obama is okay with torture," which is a ridiculous assessment.

More alarming in what you said, though, is how you can possibly compare this situation to the holocaust. While I'm firmly opposed to these tactics, I don't see how anyone can liken it to the murder and torture of countless innocents, including children, whose only crime was something beyond their control.

Several of these people who were tortured in this case are admitted criminals and conspirers. That's not to say that they deserved that treatment, especially with us without a leg to stand on legally, and I hope to never see that type of punishment implemented again, but to compare the two is an incredible stretch.

[Gaazy]

I wish theyd release how much information they got out of these people they tortured. Itd be interesting to see how many attacks it may have stopped, or soldier or civilian lives it may have saved. If its saved just one American kid from getting killed somehow, the torture was worth it~

[Gidan]

I wish theyd release how much information they got out of these people they tortured. Itd be interesting to see how many attacks it may have stopped, or soldier or civilian lives it may have saved. If its saved just one American kid from getting killed somehow, the torture was worth it~

That can go both ways, what if they got nothing out of it? What if they got false information that caused the death of innocent people?

[Arlos]

From all accounts I've read, not only did they get nothing useful, the results of using it were highly negative. First, we spent millions of dollars following up false leads that they gave us just to make the pain stop, but in at least one case, the guy was reasonably cooperative before we started torturing him, and actually was giving us good intel, but after we started, all that went out the window.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

My friend is an interrogator. He says it's almost 50/50, depending on the situation.

[Narrock]

not even close.

I'm strongly against the tactics the Bush administration employed. Very, very strongly against them and believe that the people who initiated and approved of these tactics need to be indicted for war crimes. People who followed the orders of their superiors are not in the same group at all, though.

I am realistic, however, that the high ranking members of the administration who instigated this type of behavior will likely never be brought to justice because of the type of divide it'll cause within the country - not because "Obama is okay with torture," which is a ridiculous assessment.

More alarming in what you said, though, is how you can possibly compare this situation to the holocaust. While I'm firmly opposed to these tactics, I don't see how anyone can liken it to the murder and torture of countless innocents, including children, whose only crime was something beyond their control.

Several of these people who were tortured in this case are admitted criminals and conspirers. That's not to say that they deserved that treatment, especially with us without a leg to stand on legally, and I hope to never see that type of punishment implemented again, but to compare the two is an incredible stretch.

Sometimes I just can't believe my eyes to some of the ignorant trash posted here on the NT. Hey Gyps, why don't you focus your attention on the crimes that were committed by those scumbag human pieces of offal, instead of worrying about what's happening to them during interrogations. Jesus H. Christ. Are you for real?

[Gidan]

Do you have any clue how many times the Geneva Convention specifically dictates that torture is not condoned. We have condemned the use of torture by other counties over and over, and now you believe we should partake in that same act. Our credibility as a nation is already bad enough, to willingly torture people would just make it even worse. Its bad enough that the patriot act gave our government the ability to completely dismiss a persons rights "in the interest of national security" with absolutely nothing more then a feeling that the person MIGHT be guilty of some crime that was yet to be determined. Now you think that same government should have not only that right but the right to torture those people until they confess to whatever crimes they are accused of, which as a side bonus proves the torture was justified because the person was guilty, he did confess and all.

There is a reason torture is not used, it will almost always generate exactly the response you are looking for because they will tell you whatever you want to hear to make it stop.

[leah]

if americans were being held and tortured in a foreign country--afghanistan, say, or iraq--you would be freaking out over the inhumane treatment those towelheads were dishing out to our boys. why is it ok for us to do, but we would inevitably be just OUTRAGED if someone dared to do it to us? or do you think that in this case, you would be ok with it because they're just trying to get answers out of the men to save the lives of their people?

[Arlos]

Mindia, I have one question for you, and I'm sorry if this seems harsh:

Please show me where Jesus condoned torture?


Last I checked, he preached nonviolence and to turn the other cheek. So how is torture moral under the tenets of Christianity?

-Arlos

[Narrock]

if americans were being held and tortured in a foreign country--afghanistan, say, or iraq--you would be freaking out over the inhumane treatment those towelheads were dishing out to our boys. why is it ok for us to do, but we would inevitably be just OUTRAGED if someone dared to do it to us? or do you think that in this case, you would be ok with it because they're just trying to get answers out of the men to save the lives of their people?

They saw our heads off. R.I.P. Nick Berg and hundreds of other people. Fuck those islamic extremists. What we do to THEM during interrogations is a walk in the park compared to what they do to their captives.

[Narrock]

Mindia, I have one question for you, and I'm sorry if this seems harsh:

Please show me where Jesus condoned torture?


Last I checked, he preached nonviolence and to turn the other cheek. So how is torture moral under the tenets of Christianity?

-Arlos

You can't "turn the other cheek" in a war against maniacal islamic extremists. They will continue to torture and do beheadings regardless of whether we waterboard them or feed them cake and sing Kumbaya with them. Like I told Gyps... focus your attention on the atrocities committed by these assholes. Feel the pain and suffering that the families of the victims are feeling.

[Gidan]

"The U.S. is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the U.S. and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture."

— George W. Bush, U.N. Torture Victims Recognition Day, June 26, 2003

You also may want to check your time line. All the beheading of American PoW's happened AFTER Abu Ghraib and were publicized to be in response to American treatment of prisoners. So if there is even a chance that the publicized reasons was actually true, then WE are to blame for the beheading because we provoked it by torturing our prisoners first. I certainly hope the information from Abu Ghraib was worth it, it cost Nick Berg and others their lives.

[Gypsiyee]

not even close.

I'm strongly against the tactics the Bush administration employed. Very, very strongly against them and believe that the people who initiated and approved of these tactics need to be indicted for war crimes. People who followed the orders of their superiors are not in the same group at all, though.

I am realistic, however, that the high ranking members of the administration who instigated this type of behavior will likely never be brought to justice because of the type of divide it'll cause within the country - not because "Obama is okay with torture," which is a ridiculous assessment.

More alarming in what you said, though, is how you can possibly compare this situation to the holocaust. While I'm firmly opposed to these tactics, I don't see how anyone can liken it to the murder and torture of countless innocents, including children, whose only crime was something beyond their control.

Several of these people who were tortured in this case are admitted criminals and conspirers. That's not to say that they deserved that treatment, especially with us without a leg to stand on legally, and I hope to never see that type of punishment implemented again, but to compare the two is an incredible stretch.

Sometimes I just can't believe my eyes to some of the ignorant trash posted here on the NT. Hey Gyps, why don't you focus your attention on the crimes that were committed by those scumbag human pieces of offal, instead of worrying about what's happening to them during interrogations. Jesus H. Christ. Are you for real?

do you even read what you type? that response made absolutely no sense regarding the context of my post

[Narrock]

"The U.S. is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the U.S. and the community of law abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating and prosecuting all acts of torture."

— George W. Bush, U.N. Torture Victims Recognition Day, June 26, 2003

You also may want to check your time line. All the beheading of American PoW's happened AFTER Abu Ghraib and were publicized to be in response to American treatment of prisoners. So if there is even a chance that the publicized reasons was actually true, then WE are to blame for the beheading because we provoked it by torturing our prisoners first. I certainly hope the information from Abu Ghraib was worth it, it cost Nick Berg and others their lives.

Um... no. The Quran says to slay the infidels wherever you find them. And that's exactly what they've been doing for centuries... BEFORE we allegedly "tortured" them in Abu Ghraib.

[Gidan]

First it wasn't alleged, what was done there falls under torture by the Geneva Convention. Secondly, have you ever actually read the Quran, probably not. Maybe you should actually read what it says and not what people have said it says. And I do mean actually read it, not just quotes from it as many are fond of doing. You might be rather surprised by whats actually written when you read it in its entirety.

[Narrock]

First it wasn't alleged, what was done there falls under torture by the Geneva Convention. Secondly, have you ever actually read the Quran, probably not. Maybe you should actually read what it says and not what people have said it says. And I do mean actually read it, not just quotes from it as many are fond of doing. You might be rather surprised by whats actually written when you read it in its entirety.

No, I haven't read that piece of shit. But here's some quotes from it:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - Koran 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - Koran 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - Koran 8:67

When the sacred months are over, slay the infidels wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - Koran 9:5

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - Koran 9:29

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - Koran 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. - Koran 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - Koran 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. Koran 9:123

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - Koran 48:25

Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - Koran 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - Koran 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - Koran 98:51

Nice fucking religion.

[Arlos]

You can't "turn the other cheek" in a war against maniacal islamic extremists. They will continue to torture and do beheadings regardless of whether we waterboard them or feed them cake and sing Kumbaya with them. Like I told Gyps... focus your attention on the atrocities committed by these assholes. Feel the pain and suffering that the families of the victims are feeling.

I'm sorry, Mindia, but I do not believe that 2 wrongs make a right. Enemies acting like monsters does not give us license to be monsters ourselves. The ends do NOT always justify the means; as the old saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

I'm not arguing that in many ways they have behaved barbarically, but why should we descend to their level? Aren't we better people than that? Nor do I believe in any way, shape or form that descending to their level is NECESSARY in order to combat them. We can, and will, keep ourselves safe without having to resort to inhumane methods.

Besides which, look at the reports from interrogators with knowledge of the results of the torture. It got us NOTHING. Worse, it cost us millions to chase false leads, and in at least one case, turned an at least moderately cooperative captive who WAS giving us information into uselessness after we started the torture. Even if you think that the end justifies the means, in this case, the means were horrific and didn't even WORK.

-Arlos

[brinstar]

Who Would Jesus Torture?

[Jay]

I've read the Quran and the bible both and tbh they're both a very similar read with very similar ideals. What you posted, Mindia, is definitely in the Koran. There's no mistake on that. What you didn't post is the context in what those verses represent nor did you post the peaceful idealisms of the Koran. Let me clear it up for you.

First off, what Mindia posted is really in the Koran. What he didn't post is that it pertains to combatant figures. People who fight the religion, opress it, persecute it etc etc. The term "unbelievers" or "non-believers" is used to describe anyone on the battlefield who wasn't on their side. As far as beheading is concerned, yeah, beheading is ok...in the heat of battle. The Quran actually has sections that specifically instruct it's followers how to handle non believing non-combatants (ie non Islamic civilian types) properly and forbids and condemns murdering them. Example:

Quran 76:5, 8-10
[5] But the righteous... [8] give sustenance to the destitute, the orphan, and the captive, [9] saying: ‘We feed you for God’s sake only; we seek of you neither recompense nor thanks: [10] for we fear from our Lord a day of anguish and of woe.’

That basically says, yeah, we're taking care of you because that's what God (Allah) wants.

Quran 8:71
Prophet, say to those you have taken captive: ‘If God finds goodness in your hearts, He will give you that which is better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you. God is forgiving and merciful.’

It's pretty clear that that is an extension of forgiveness from God if you choose to adopt their doctrine.

Quran 9:6
If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.

Again, protection of outsiders, charity, understanding. That's 3 out of 5 of the pillars of the Islam religion. That's what the Quran preaches mostly. There are "sword verses" that talk about killing in the midst of war, condoning violence and execution of PoW's and non believers during war times that are contradictory in nature with the passages above that I posted. Open up your bible and read Deuteronomy, Ezekial, and Exodus. Those books contain God condoning the same stuff that the Quran condones to non believers. In fact, Ezekial has passages in which God himself orders the soldiers to ravage women and kill the children of the enemy.

Ezekial 9 5-7
5 And to the others the Lord said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. 6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out.” So they went out and struck in the city.

So...whatever happened to thou shalt not kill? Did God take it back? Seems so since he's saying to go ahead and kill women, children and the elderly.

Deutoeronomy 13 7-12
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.

So that verse says, even if it's your friend, family member, kid, if they have a different religion, kill them. Wow. That's much better than Islam lemme tell ya.

Deuteronomy 13 13-19
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

Not only does that say "kill the non believer", that says, kill everyone in the same town as the non believer. Man, I'm starting to see why bible fanatics don't bring up Deuteronomy too much.

Exodus 21 7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Yep, rules on how to sell your daughter as a sex slave with terms and conditions included.

What you have to understand is the time that these scriptures were written. Both the Bible and the Quran are ancient and obviously ancient ways of life don't necessarily hold up nowadays the same way they did back then. You also have to understand context and most importantly, interpretation. As I've shown in the quotes above, I can find a few ways to say that the Bible is ok with rape, killing babies, sex slavery and that they're equally guilty of pushing the killing of the non believers stuff as the Quran is. Of course, I know better and you, Erik, should know better. The people you have a problem with are Islamic extremists and insurgents. They don't represent the majority of Islam, which is a religion based mostly of charity and peace. The danger out there is not the religion of Islam, but the extremists interpretation of Islam.

[brinstar]

nice post jay, but unfortunately i don't think it'll work. he would have to 1) read it without slamming his mind shut six words in, and that would be a miracle greater than turning water into wine. then, he'd have to 2) objectively examine his justification for nursing and cultivating extreme hatred for over 1.5 billion people and come to the realization that jeez, what i'm doing is the equivalent of hating ALL christians because of the actions of the Westboro nutjobs-- which may be a faulty analogy, of course, as it assumes he thinks their actions are "bad" or "wrong" to begin with! anyway, then he'd have to 3) realize that almost nothing of the way he believes and acts about/to the rest of the world at all resembles the teachings of the man after whom his religion is named. if all that somehow happened, he would then have to 4) swallow that planetoid ego of his and actually change. for all four of those things to happen, despite the quality of your post, would be more miraculous than seeing jesus, the buddha, xenu, and mohammed sharing a bucket of popcorn courtside at a lakers game. nice try though

[Narrock]

Jay, that was a great post on your part, and I appreciate the time you took to put it together. The problem is that there are way too many extremists, insurgents, jihadists, etc. who do take a massive misinterpretation of the Quran, and even their peaceful bretheren cannot pound that into their heads. I have no doubt that there are millions of peaceful muslims who understand that, and who wouldn't hurt a soul. But again, there are millions who would, and do, commit atrocities in the name of "Allah." Because of those insane people, and the crimes against humanity they have committed, it's very hard for non-muslims to accept that religion as "peaceful." People are sick and tired of the extremists' bullshit, and that taints the entire religion.

It cracks me up to no end when people try to bring up atrocities that Christians committed thousands of years ago, or even with the Crusades hundreds of years ago, in a weak attempt to draw comparisons of radical islamists to Christians. It's a night-and-day difference anyway. The radical islamists are committing atrocities NOW. They are ingrained with hatred from birth to childhood to teen years to adulthood NOW... the lie is perpetuated throughout their entire lives. Unless and until these maniacs are cleansed from the gene pool, their religion will remain to be tainted in the eyes of the non-muslim world.

And Alex, go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.