change you can beleive in

[Tikker]

I've read the Quran and the bible both and tbh they're both a very similar read with very similar ideals.

of course they are. muslims and christians believe in exactly the same God, they just think the other is misinterpreting the message

[brinstar]

i don't have to take mindia off ignore to realize that he probably just proved my point

thanks for being so predictable

[Drem]

and you're all just arguing about philosophies in fiction books that have been re-written hundreds of times over the last few thousand years. congrats

was it george carlin that said priests and clergy etc. are the biggest bullshitters the world's ever known? it's so true. only something like religion could somehow make millions of people hate eachother because they pray to different words

[Drem]

and PS no, he didn't alex, you're the one that's acting predictably actually

[brinstar]

okay how's that

[Drem]

i'm not going to explain your mindiahate to you. take him off ignore and read it yourself. he put up a legitimate defense

[brinstar]

okay, i read it. aside from vastly overestimating the number of militant extremists (millions? really? lol), he then advocated wiping them all out. funny, isn't that what the extremists teach? to wipe out their enemy?

also:

and you're all just arguing about philosophies in fiction books that have been re-written hundreds of times over the last few thousand years. congrats

was it george carlin that said priests and clergy etc. are the biggest bullshitters the world's ever known? it's so true. only something like religion could somehow make millions of people hate eachother because they pray to different words

so?

you think apathy is going to change that? or know-it-all nihilism? good luck, let me know how that turns out!

[Narrock]

Drem, he's just going to continue spouting off bullshit just to have the last word, so let it go. Let him wallow in his ignorance.

[Tikker]

you know you're in the wrong when you realize Mindia is on your side

[Narrock]

you know you're in the wrong when you realize Mindia is on your side

Oh the irony...

[Jay]

Jay, that was a great post on your part, and I appreciate the time you took to put it together. The problem is that there are way too many extremists, insurgents, jihadists, etc. who do take a massive misinterpretation of the Quran, and even their peaceful bretheren cannot pound that into their heads. I have no doubt that there are millions of peaceful muslims who understand that, and who wouldn't hurt a soul. But again, there are millions who would, and do, commit atrocities in the name of "Allah." Because of those insane people, and the crimes against humanity they have committed, it's very hard for non-muslims to accept that religion as "peaceful." People are sick and tired of the extremists' bullshit, and that taints the entire religion.

It cracks me up to no end when people try to bring up atrocities that Christians committed thousands of years ago, or even with the Crusades hundreds of years ago, in a weak attempt to draw comparisons of radical islamists to Christians. It's a night-and-day difference anyway. The radical islamists are committing atrocities NOW. They are ingrained with hatred from birth to childhood to teen years to adulthood NOW... the lie is perpetuated throughout their entire lives. Unless and until these maniacs are cleansed from the gene pool, their religion will remain to be tainted in the eyes of the non-muslim world.

And Alex, go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.

It's not a night and day difference. It's the same thing. It's man's misinterpretation of their faith through violent exercise. Christians are equally if not more guilty of it as are radical terrorist Muslims. I understand the difference between here and now vs back then but the parallels are there and the same ignorant mindsets such as yours are what ultimately create this global problem. We took a side in Desert Storm and we created Osama Bin Laden. We torture Islamic militants and Nick Berg gets beheaded in retaliation. It all starts with lack of understanding, fear of the unknown and refusal to accept disagreement. All stuff you happen to be a pro at Mindia. Lack of understanding is what turns a lot of people to faith. A large group of people with lack of understanding is what creates a faith based government. Extreme bloodshed is what happens when you oppose a faith based government. It's a part of the old world that Chrisians have since moved on from but not before making themselves a prime example of what can happen. Now it's Muslims in the middle east. Same shit, darker skin.

I'm sure you have your reasons for hating them as much as you do but just keep in mind that you're contributing to the problem by acting that way. Christianity was able to flourish and become one of the leaders in religious moral standard not because people sat around and labled them extremist murderers. It was through understanding and embracing the good parts of Christianity that Christians were able to move on from a terrible past to do great things. Example being the creation of the US under it's initial Christian principles. As long as you wanna keep your blind one sided mindset, you may as well be lumped in with the Muslim extremists since you, like them, are simply contributing to the overall problem.

[Narrock]

Jay, that was a great post on your part, and I appreciate the time you took to put it together. The problem is that there are way too many extremists, insurgents, jihadists, etc. who do take a massive misinterpretation of the Quran, and even their peaceful bretheren cannot pound that into their heads. I have no doubt that there are millions of peaceful muslims who understand that, and who wouldn't hurt a soul. But again, there are millions who would, and do, commit atrocities in the name of "Allah." Because of those insane people, and the crimes against humanity they have committed, it's very hard for non-muslims to accept that religion as "peaceful." People are sick and tired of the extremists' bullshit, and that taints the entire religion.

It cracks me up to no end when people try to bring up atrocities that Christians committed thousands of years ago, or even with the Crusades hundreds of years ago, in a weak attempt to draw comparisons of radical islamists to Christians. It's a night-and-day difference anyway. The radical islamists are committing atrocities NOW. They are ingrained with hatred from birth to childhood to teen years to adulthood NOW... the lie is perpetuated throughout their entire lives. Unless and until these maniacs are cleansed from the gene pool, their religion will remain to be tainted in the eyes of the non-muslim world.

And Alex, go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.

It's not a night and day difference. It's the same thing. It's man's misinterpretation of their faith through violent exercise. Christians are equally if not more guilty of it as are radical terrorist Muslims. I understand the difference between here and now vs back then but the parallels are there and the same ignorant mindsets such as yours are what ultimately create this global problem. We took a side in Desert Storm and we created Osama Bin Laden. We torture Islamic militants and Nick Berg gets beheaded in retaliation. It all starts with lack of understanding, fear of the unknown and refusal to accept disagreement. All stuff you happen to be a pro at Mindia. Lack of understanding is what turns a lot of people to faith. A large group of people with lack of understanding is what creates a faith based government. Extreme bloodshed is what happens when you oppose a faith based government. It's a part of the old world that Chrisians have since moved on from but not before making themselves a prime example of what can happen. Now it's Muslims in the middle east. Same shit, darker skin.

I'm sure you have your reasons for hating them as much as you do but just keep in mind that you're contributing to the problem by acting that way. Christianity was able to flourish and become one of the leaders in religious moral standard not because people sat around and labled them extremist murderers. It was through understanding and embracing the good parts of Christianity that Christians were able to move on from a terrible past to do great things. Example being the creation of the US under it's initial Christian principles. As long as you wanna keep your blind one sided mindset, you may as well be lumped in with the Muslim extremists since you, like them, are simply contributing to the overall problem.

I have to disagree with you on many points you made. Islam is so very different from modern-day Christianity. You cannot draw parallels. If there were millions, or hundreds of thousands of Christians, running around in modern day committing the same kind of atrocities as these islamists, then you would have a case. Sorry, but what Christians did hundreds of years ago is a very very weak argument. Furthermore, the alleged "torture" of a captured islamic extremist does not give them the right to saw the head off of a Christian or Jewish prisoner in retaliation. We must not bow down to this. If we did, we would be seen as extremely weak, and the atrocities committed by the islamic extremists will be more frequent. These people don't have reasoning ability. They only know how to resolve conflict with death and violence. It's because of this inability on their part to be civilized that they must be dealt with harshly. Face it... they are throwbacks to the 9th Century.

[leah]

jay! your eloquence thrills me. thank you for your words.

[Jay]

Jay, that was a great post on your part, and I appreciate the time you took to put it together. The problem is that there are way too many extremists, insurgents, jihadists, etc. who do take a massive misinterpretation of the Quran, and even their peaceful bretheren cannot pound that into their heads. I have no doubt that there are millions of peaceful muslims who understand that, and who wouldn't hurt a soul. But again, there are millions who would, and do, commit atrocities in the name of "Allah." Because of those insane people, and the crimes against humanity they have committed, it's very hard for non-muslims to accept that religion as "peaceful." People are sick and tired of the extremists' bullshit, and that taints the entire religion.

It cracks me up to no end when people try to bring up atrocities that Christians committed thousands of years ago, or even with the Crusades hundreds of years ago, in a weak attempt to draw comparisons of radical islamists to Christians. It's a night-and-day difference anyway. The radical islamists are committing atrocities NOW. They are ingrained with hatred from birth to childhood to teen years to adulthood NOW... the lie is perpetuated throughout their entire lives. Unless and until these maniacs are cleansed from the gene pool, their religion will remain to be tainted in the eyes of the non-muslim world.

And Alex, go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.

It's not a night and day difference. It's the same thing. It's man's misinterpretation of their faith through violent exercise. Christians are equally if not more guilty of it as are radical terrorist Muslims. I understand the difference between here and now vs back then but the parallels are there and the same ignorant mindsets such as yours are what ultimately create this global problem. We took a side in Desert Storm and we created Osama Bin Laden. We torture Islamic militants and Nick Berg gets beheaded in retaliation. It all starts with lack of understanding, fear of the unknown and refusal to accept disagreement. All stuff you happen to be a pro at Mindia. Lack of understanding is what turns a lot of people to faith. A large group of people with lack of understanding is what creates a faith based government. Extreme bloodshed is what happens when you oppose a faith based government. It's a part of the old world that Chrisians have since moved on from but not before making themselves a prime example of what can happen. Now it's Muslims in the middle east. Same shit, darker skin.

I'm sure you have your reasons for hating them as much as you do but just keep in mind that you're contributing to the problem by acting that way. Christianity was able to flourish and become one of the leaders in religious moral standard not because people sat around and labled them extremist murderers. It was through understanding and embracing the good parts of Christianity that Christians were able to move on from a terrible past to do great things. Example being the creation of the US under it's initial Christian principles. As long as you wanna keep your blind one sided mindset, you may as well be lumped in with the Muslim extremists since you, like them, are simply contributing to the overall problem.

I have to disagree with you on many points you made. Islam is so very different from modern-day Christianity. You cannot draw parallels. If there were millions, or hundreds of thousands of Christians, running around in modern day committing the same kind of atrocities as these islamists, then you would have a case. Sorry, but what Christians did hundreds of years ago is a very very weak argument. Furthermore, the alleged "torture" of a captured islamic extremist does not give them the right to saw the head off of a Christian or Jewish prisoner in retaliation. We must not bow down to this. If we did, we would be seen as extremely weak, and the atrocities committed by the islamic extremists will be more frequent. These people don't have reasoning ability. They only know how to resolve conflict with death and violence. It's because of this inability on their part to be civilized that they must be dealt with harshly. Face it... they are throwbacks to the 9th Century.

Reread what I said. I didn't compare Islam today with Christianity today. I compared Islam today with Christianity from before when they were murdering people in the name of religion. That's where I draw parallels. I'm not saying one is more righteous than the other, I'm saying they both headed in the direction of extreme bloodshed in the exact same way, which is large groups of people allowing a religion to govern them entirely. Read closely, because I specifically said that Christianity had moved on from that point. Islam will too but not because of you spreading the idea that Islam is a violent religion that condones killing. It will reach that place when you realize that the extremists are the problem, not the religion itself.

Also, you're right, NOTHING gives them the right to saw off anyone's head. I didn't say that they were right to retaliate that way. That's sickening. However, there is a chance that that could have been avoided. I'll even go as far to say that maybe what caused his death was the "eye for an eye" mentality. Either way, if there was even a minute chance he could've been saved, we'd never know, because we moved forward with the worst judgment possible and in the end, he's dead. Peace is the answer to the problem, more war or perpetuation of it doesn't help that cause. War starts with the lack of acceptance, your attitude being a prime example of that, and god forbid that someone you influence comes into a position of power one day and further lends to the problem at hand.

Right now, all we can do is defend ourselves and defeat the terrorists for the time being. That already is no easy task, but it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. People need to learn acceptance and understanding so that in the future we don't create Osama's successor. If people had a better understanding of what the nation of Islam was trying to accomplish and that we have a common enemy, then perhaps we could avoid a similar problem decades in the future when our kids take over the world. It starts with you, and people like you having an open mind to the things that you don't understand and taking some time to learn about it before passing an unfair generalized statement to a community of decent people. Shit like that is what turns a regular person with strong beliefs into Saddam, Osama, or even Timothy McVey. The way you generalize and immediately condemn people without a second thought not only is the very opposite of Christianity but it's also the seed that for some people eventually grows into terrorist extremism.

jay! your eloquence thrills me. thank you for your words.

Sex?

[brinstar]

man if i ever visit modesto i'm buying you a beer

[Drem]

okay, i read it. aside from vastly overestimating the number of militant extremists (millions? really? lol), he then advocated wiping them all out. funny, isn't that what the extremists teach? to wipe out their enemy?

also:

and you're all just arguing about philosophies in fiction books that have been re-written hundreds of times over the last few thousand years. congrats

was it george carlin that said priests and clergy etc. are the biggest bullshitters the world's ever known? it's so true. only something like religion could somehow make millions of people hate eachother because they pray to different words

so?

you think apathy is going to change that? or know-it-all nihilism? good luck, let me know how that turns out!

i don't understand this post at all or why it says Harrison???

[Narrock]

Jay said:

Reread what I said. I didn't compare Islam today with Christianity today. I compared Islam today with Christianity from before when they were murdering people in the name of religion. That's where I draw parallels. I'm not saying one is more righteous than the other, I'm saying they both headed in the direction of extreme bloodshed in the exact same way, which is large groups of people allowing a religion to govern them entirely. Read closely, because I specifically said that Christianity had moved on from that point. Islam will too but not because of you spreading the idea that Islam is a violent religion that condones killing. It will reach that place when you realize that the extremists are the problem, not the religion itself.

Also, you're right, NOTHING gives them the right to saw off anyone's head. I didn't say that they were right to retaliate that way. That's sickening. However, there is a chance that that could have been avoided. I'll even go as far to say that maybe what caused his death was the "eye for an eye" mentality. Either way, if there was even a minute chance he could've been saved, we'd never know, because we moved forward with the worst judgment possible and in the end, he's dead. Peace is the answer to the problem, more war or perpetuation of it doesn't help that cause. War starts with the lack of acceptance, your attitude being a prime example of that, and god forbid that someone you influence comes into a position of power one day and further lends to the problem at hand.

Right now, all we can do is defend ourselves and defeat the terrorists for the time being. That already is no easy task, but it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. People need to learn acceptance and understanding so that in the future we don't create Osama's successor. If people had a better understanding of what the nation of Islam was trying to accomplish and that we have a common enemy, then perhaps we could avoid a similar problem decades in the future when our kids take over the world. It starts with you, and people like you having an open mind to the things that you don't understand and taking some time to learn about it before passing an unfair generalized statement to a community of decent people. Shit like that is what turns a regular person with strong beliefs into Saddam, Osama, or even Timothy McVey. The way you generalize and immediately condemn people without a second thought not only is the very opposite of Christianity but it's also the seed that for some people eventually grows into terrorist extremism.

Ok, let's say that everybody on the planet decides to all-of-a-sudden accept Islam as a legitimate peaceful religion. Do you think that will change anything in the eyes of the islamic extremists? Don't be naive, dude. It won't. They are murderers. "Convert, or die" is their slogan. It's burned into their core. Furthermore, the mastermind of the 911 attacks, Khalid Sheihk Mohammed, was waterboarded and interrogated. It was because of the tactics used during the interrogation of that scumbag that we obtained vital information into the structure of the Taliban. Also, there have been no more attacks on U.S. soil because of the intel we obtained through interrogations. And you want to close Gitmo, and do away with tactics that have been helping us, and reducing attacks on our soil????? Really????

That's just one of the many, many reasons why I can't stand Obama. He's a traitor to the United States. He's a fraud and a traitor IMO, and just because he's "good looking" and "articulate" and a "well-educated" man, all of you SHEEP voted for him. You're going to regret it, and regret it HARD. Congrats for putting a dangerous criminal in the white house and making America take gigantic backward steps. Almost every person he appointed to his cabinet is a thug. Almost every decision he's made since he took office has been insane and absolutely ridiculous. Now he's making friends with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. Who's next... Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Ill? Holy crap, this guy is out of control. This is going to be a long and torturous 4 years for Americans.

[leah]

That's just one of the many, many reasons why I can't stand Obama.

whee, you said "obama"!

[brinstar]

hahahaha

[Jay]

Jay said:

Reread what I said. I didn't compare Islam today with Christianity today. I compared Islam today with Christianity from before when they were murdering people in the name of religion. That's where I draw parallels. I'm not saying one is more righteous than the other, I'm saying they both headed in the direction of extreme bloodshed in the exact same way, which is large groups of people allowing a religion to govern them entirely. Read closely, because I specifically said that Christianity had moved on from that point. Islam will too but not because of you spreading the idea that Islam is a violent religion that condones killing. It will reach that place when you realize that the extremists are the problem, not the religion itself.

Also, you're right, NOTHING gives them the right to saw off anyone's head. I didn't say that they were right to retaliate that way. That's sickening. However, there is a chance that that could have been avoided. I'll even go as far to say that maybe what caused his death was the "eye for an eye" mentality. Either way, if there was even a minute chance he could've been saved, we'd never know, because we moved forward with the worst judgment possible and in the end, he's dead. Peace is the answer to the problem, more war or perpetuation of it doesn't help that cause. War starts with the lack of acceptance, your attitude being a prime example of that, and god forbid that someone you influence comes into a position of power one day and further lends to the problem at hand.

Right now, all we can do is defend ourselves and defeat the terrorists for the time being. That already is no easy task, but it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. People need to learn acceptance and understanding so that in the future we don't create Osama's successor. If people had a better understanding of what the nation of Islam was trying to accomplish and that we have a common enemy, then perhaps we could avoid a similar problem decades in the future when our kids take over the world. It starts with you, and people like you having an open mind to the things that you don't understand and taking some time to learn about it before passing an unfair generalized statement to a community of decent people. Shit like that is what turns a regular person with strong beliefs into Saddam, Osama, or even Timothy McVey. The way you generalize and immediately condemn people without a second thought not only is the very opposite of Christianity but it's also the seed that for some people eventually grows into terrorist extremism.

Ok, let's say that everybody on the planet decides to all-of-a-sudden accept Islam as a legitimate peaceful religion. Do you think that will change anything in the eyes of the islamic extremists? Don't be naive, dude. It won't. They are murderers. "Convert, or die" is their slogan. It's burned into their core. Furthermore, the mastermind of the 911 attacks, Khalid Sheihk Mohammed, was waterboarded and interrogated. It was because of the tactics used during the interrogation of that scumbag that we obtained vital information into the structure of the Taliban. Also, there have been no more attacks on U.S. soil because of the intel we obtained through interrogations. And you want to close Gitmo, and do away with tactics that have been helping us, and reducing attacks on our soil????? Really????

That's just one of the many, many reasons why I can't stand Obama. He's a traitor to the United States. He's a fraud and a traitor IMO, and just because he's "good looking" and "articulate" and a "well-educated" man, all of you SHEEP voted for him. You're going to regret it, and regret it HARD. Congrats for putting a dangerous criminal in the white house and making America take gigantic backward steps. Almost every person he appointed to his cabinet is a thug. Almost every decision he's made since he took office has been insane and absolutely ridiculous. Now he's making friends with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. Who's next... Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Ill? Holy crap, this guy is out of control. This is going to be a long and torturous 4 years for Americans.

In the eyes of the evil extremists, no, maybe so. I can't say. What I am saying is, THEY are the problem, not Islam. That's my entire point. They soil the name of their religion, which isn't a bad religion, they make it bad by doing bad things in it's name. As people, we are the ones that have to learn acceptance and guide people in the direction of peace. We are the one's that have to learn from the mistakes of before. It's too late to change what's happening today but it's not too late to prevent it from happening in the future. If we continue to blame Islam as a whole for the actions of a few nutjobs, that won't solve the problem. Isolating them is exactly what will create war in the future because we're letting our differences get the better of us. That's not being naive, that's being optimistic. If Islam were gone as of tomorrow, sure, there might be less violence and such right now, but some other religious world power will eventually do the same thing. Christians did it, Muslims are doing it now, who's the say what will happen later on. The problem isn't the religion, it's the power hungry terrorists regimes that use the religion to make an excuse to violently shape the world the way they believe it should be, which is a problem for everyone, Islam, Christian, Catholic whatever. Persecuting their way of life is what got us here in the first place and while what they are doing isn't right, maybe it could've been avoided if people listened instead of immediately choosing one side and condemning another like you do here on a daily basis.

[Gypsiyee]

Also, there have been no more attacks on U.S. soil because of the intel we obtained through interrogations.

you can't seriously believe this?

that's not why they haven't attacked us again, man. you realize that the span of time between the first WTC bombing which also involved Khaled Shaikh Mohammed was about the same time span as we've been 'safe.' It has nothing to do with the intel we obtained (a splash in the bucket - you're a fool if you believe we know even half of the truth) - the stuff takes time to plan, and they're not going to just hastily attack again knowing that they're on high alert from the previous attack.

These aren't stupid people. Evil, maybe, but not stupid.

They have to go back to the drawing board and make intricate plans - it's not like the 9/11 attacks were just some overnight plan. During that time of planning, we get the illusion of "safe" that some people are stupid enough to fall for. It has nothing to do with how 'well' we've been protected. It was 8 years between the WTC car bombing and 9/11. I guarantee if it happens again in the same timespan, the rabid side of the right will immediately blame it on Obama, which would be absolutely ludicrous.

Electing a criminal into the whitehouse? Show me, where are his criminal charges? He's one of the most open presidents we've ever had - accountants have referred to him as boring after examining his taxes, for example. He's been honest even when it hasn't been in his best interest.

Almost every detail of his life that's been released has blown out of proportion and skewed for propaganda (you crazy wingnuts are STILL looking for fake birth certificate bullshit, and you're STILL buying up guns even though he's never, ever mentioned taking away guns), and you fall for it hook, line, and sinker. You haven't even allowed him to be your president - you had your impeach Obama avatar up before he was inaugurated. For someone who criticized people for being hard on Bush (when you still liked him anyway. but then that became unpopular with even the republicans so you baa-baa'd all the way on that one too) you sure don't allow it the other way. You know, it took years for people to be that hard on Bush. You haven't even given Obama months.

It's amazing to me that you, Dolly herself, the clone of sheep, can call anyone else by such a name.

[Eziekial]

The Jews are next up for a run at world domination. And the Obama administration was revisiting the "assault" weapon ban but Hillary prematurely floated that out and all hell broke loose so it was throttled back.

[Gypsiyee]

Personally, I put assault weapons in a completely different category. You'll never convince me anyone needs those, or that anyone buys them for any reason other than "I can, damnit."

Anyhow, people didn't start buying up machine guns when he was elected, they're buying up rifles and pistols - the result of a lot of propaganda based fear with no factual backing.

[Eziekial]

Actually, people started buying up weapons immediately after he was elected. I had to search over 4 months for my M1A and the cost had almost doubled. Ammo is hard to come by. If you don't believe me, check out the site cheaperthandirt.com and look how many of the cheaper ammos are out of stock or "limited supply". Look up .223 ammo (that's AR15 which is the civilian equivalent to the M16 or .308 which I need for the M14.

And it's not because "I can, dammit".

[vonkaar]

haha, yeah... my buddy is a programmer at cheaperthandirt.com and he said that the day after the election was their #1 busiest day ever. By noon, they had already sold more than any other day.