Perez Hilton

[Drem]

bingo

[Eziekial]

Why don't scientific people out homosexuality as abnormal variations to natural selection? People like Perez hilton are dead end branches in the tree of life.

[ClakarEQ]

Why don't scientific people out homosexuality as abnormal variations to natural selection? People like Perez hilton are dead end branches in the tree of life.

How do you know natural selection and homosexuality isn't "right" and growing directly from evolution, ala a method of population control. IMO our long term problems will have to include methods of population control.

We already know we can breed, void of sex, and that would be the only part missing in a gay household (sex in the terms of a dick and a vag)

[mappatazee]

Why don't scientific people out homosexuality as abnormal variations to natural selection? People like Perez hilton are dead end branches in the tree of life.

Well one doesn't have to reproduce themselves to have positive fitness. Ants are a good example, a whole colony of genetically similar non-breeding workers. In the past decade or so brains of homosexuals are shown to be morphologically similar to members of the opposite sex, I think specifically parts of the inner ear. I don't know who Perez Hilton is, I don't know what the purpose of pageants are, but I thought it was a stupid question and it was a stupid answer. Also that girl needs a sammich.

[Eziekial]

What are you talking about Clakar? Cloning? Invetro fertilization? Those are extremely expensive, artificial methods of procreation.

As for population control - are you implying that being gay is equivalent to a virus or disease and under the right circumstances (ie, overcrowding) could become pandemic?

[mappatazee]

As for population control - are you implying that being gay is equivalent to a virus or disease and under the right circumstances (ie, overcrowding) could become pandemic?

not the first time i've heard it suggested. like frogs that change gender depending on whether there's a shortage of males or females. i think it'd be hard to confirm historically tho as it's almost always been taboo.

[ClakarEQ]

It was a retort to the commnet you made regarding science explaining away gays by abnormalities, etc.

Science doesn't know that and for all we do know, gays could be a trend for the norm while hetro's could be the "dieing breed".

My other comment is in regards to the taboo topic - population control. Eventually it will have to be dealt with, unless some mass amount of deaths take place across the planet. I don't know of a time when global population counts "shrunk" across the span of a year.

The cost for invetro, etc exists because folks are willing to pay, if it were to become a "norm" and not a "feature" for, often times, financially stable / better off folks, the cost would go down.

[Harrison]

Nothing at all against homosexuals in any way, but to consider them anything but an abnormality isn't very bright if you ask me.

It is clear they aren't normal. Acceptable in every way, but not normal.

[Lyion]

Nothing at all against homosexuals in any way, but to consider them anything but an abnormality isn't very bright if you ask me.

It is clear they aren't normal. Acceptable in every way, but not normal.

This reminds me of Young Frankenstein.

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Now that brain that you gave me. Was it Hans Delbruck's?
Igor: No.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Ah! Very good. Would you mind telling me whose brain I DID put in?
Igor: Then you won't be angry?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I will NOT be angry.
Igor: Abby Someone.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Abby Someone. Abby who?
Igor: Abby Normal.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Abby Normal?
Igor: I'm almost sure that was the name.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA?

I personally think sexual orientation is part genetics, part choice, but again who cares? Do what you want, just don't shove it in my face.

[Harrison]

I personally think sexual orientation is part genetics, part choice, but again who cares? Do what you want, just don't shove it in my face.

That's pretty much what I said. I disagree with the choice part, though. I don't think very many, real, homosexuals made a conscious decision to be attracted to the same sex. Acting upon said desires, is a decision, but not fair to say that it's wrong for them to act upon what they feel is right between two consenting adults.

Not that I haven't said that a million times in the past or anything...

[brinstar]

choice

choice

ahh, there's an interesting line of inquiry. given the social stigma and associated difficulties involved with such a lifestyle (which we all seem to agree is at least mostly unfair), who in their right mind would freely choose to subject themselves to such unpleasantness? to me, that seems to be one of the strongest arguments against the notion of having any choice in the matter. in fact, it could be argued that the only choice within their power is whether to keep that part of their nature hidden-- to stay in the closet, if you will, and exchange freedom of expression for freedom from oppression.

[Eziekial]

I don't know dave. People choose to have their bodies maimed and deformed by piercings, tattoos, etc. Some people choose to be outside of mainstream just to be outside of mainstream.

Speaking of which, have you heard of people who hang themselves on meat hooks??!! Now that is FUCKED up!

[brinstar]

yes i've heard of native americans

[Eziekial]

Is there a correlation between Native Americans and self mutilation?

[10sun]

Is there a correlation between Native Americans and self mutilation?

Sun Dance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_dance

[Ginzburgh]

Comparing a Native American spiritual ritual to some freak who does it because he thinks it's cool is like comparing the spiritual tattoos the Samurai would cover themselves with to a sorority girl who get's the japanese letter for "love" on her lower back.

Apples and oranges.

[10sun]

Discrediting a subculture's belief system and rituals simply because you can't understand it doesn't make it any less real.

Additionally, the "meat hook hanging freaks" experience a very similar stimulation to the Native American Sun Dancers in regards to endorphin release.

All of that said, they are all fucked in the head.

[Ginzburgh]

Endorphin release aside, it's a cultural/spiritual thing for Native Americans. Like a Native American shaman eating Peyote is a little different than some hippie eating Mushrooms at a Phish concert. Same phsical effect, totally different purpose.

[10sun]

Re: Sundancers

They will be looked back upon as similar acts one hundred years from now.
Both were performed only by a select group in a subculture.
Both were not a day to day activity, but reserved only for select times during gatherings.
Those who were able to perform either act were revered among their community for such displays of strength, stamina, and fearlessness.
Stripping away the decorations that make each superficially distinct, they are in essence the same act.

[Ginzburgh]

I still think it's completely different but I'll give up my argument here on the nameless tavern.

[Arlos]

I actually agree with Ginz on this one.

For the Indians, it was a profoundly spiritual act, a rite of manhood, and it had the weight of hundreds and thousands of years of belief and culture behind it.

For modern people doing it, they are at best doing it in imitation, and they certainly lack anything akin to the same cultural relevance or societal weight of belief behind it. BIG difference there.

-Arlos

[Ginzburgh]

Eloquently put.

You could have left out the "actually" though. :P

[10sun]

For modern people doing it, they are at best doing it in imitation, and they certainly lack anything akin to the same cultural relevance or societal weight of belief behind it. BIG difference there.
-Arlos

Are we talking about marriage again?

The modern person or culture doesn't carry any meaning in actions? Just because they do something similar to another, older culture's doesn't mean it is entirely imitation and without any sort of social relevance.

I don't think anybody here can be an authority on whether or not it carries any societal weight or cultural relevance when they openly discount an entire subculture's culture.

Believe it or not, there is modern culture and it does have meaning.

[Arlos]

Ahhh, but back then, it wasn't a SUB-culture.

-Arlos

[10sun]

Ahhh, but back then, it wasn't a SUB-culture.

-Arlos

Once again, are we talking about marriage? =P

It depends on what tribe you are referring to regarding the Sun Dance / okipa suspension.

Any way you look at it though, not all members of the tribes participated in such ordeals, but only a select group within each tribe did. Some determined by others and others volunteered.