NBA playoffs

[Harrison]

I understand the rules of the game just fine. I don't think anyone with even a tiny grasp on them would say that entire game wasn't fucking ugly officiating.

[Gypsiyee]

no, ugly officiating was what was happening in boston's favor in the series prior. I think you're mistaking ugly officiating for officiating you disagree with because it didn't work in favor of your home team.

fyi, this is coming from a celtics fan.

[Lyion]

I understand the rules of the game just fine. I don't think anyone with even a tiny grasp on them would say that entire game wasn't fucking ugly officiating.

This is the NBA we're talking about. Officiating isn't the same as in baseball or even the NFL.

Ignoring Travels, 3 second violations, and giving ticky tack fouls to big names are all the norm

It's been like this for the last 30 years, and it sells.

[Zanchief]

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/59124/20090512/dallas_fans_throw_things_at_k_marts_mom_carmelos_girlfriend/

HAHA this is hilarious. I love George Karl's comments at the end.

This series is getting pretty good. I hope Dallas can get a few wins going.

[Gypsiyee]

I really like Mark Cuban, but his behavior was really piss-poor unprofessional. Like I get that he has an unmatched passion for his team, and I get that they don't call them the Thuggets for no reason, but as a franchise owner there's some shit you need to keep in check. Acting like a typical angry fan only serves to feed into some really scary behavior for fanatics - the dumbasses out there who will use it as an excuse to exceed limitations expected within a basketball arena. There are too many crazies out there to step over that line and open the door for people who want an excuse to cause a scene.

He's a brilliant guy, a good guy, and an owner to be admired that many more should aspire to be.. but he knows better than that petty stupid shit and he knows exactly what type of spiral it could cause.

[vonkaar]

Hi Lyion =)

Shrug... I honestly don't think that the Nuggets are 'that' rough. Go look at the Jazz from the mid-late 90s, Pistons/Knicks from the early 90s or basically any Bruce Bowen play and you'll see some bullshit thuggery.

I was really surprised when I heard about Dallas fans acting like that. We are usually so boring and quiet, that type of behaviour was really unexpected. In Philly? Sure...

And, Mark said like... 4 words to her... I don't know why he did it, but I think it's a big deal about nothing.

[Zanchief]

People are making a big deal about it because drama is awesome!

[Zanchief]

The Denver LA Western conference series is going to be pretty interesting for both Chancey Billups and Allen Iverson.

If Billups wins, which I don’t think is horribly unlikely at this point, it would mean that he did so much more with the same team that did nothing with Iverson. On the flip side, the team that won a title with Billups and was a perennial division leader was so bad with Iverson he was basically sent packing. When have we ever seen two players pitted against each other at the same position and the same age in this way and seen what is unmistakably a clear cut winner VS a clear cut loser before?

If Denver ends up winning the championship (longshot I know) Billups would have to be a shoe in for the HoF and it would pretty much ruin Iverson’s career (for me at least).

I think I’m rooting for Denver now that Dallas is out and Houston is all but done.

[Gypsiyee]

I think once he botched it with the Pistons his career was kind of already over =\

[Arlos]

I dunno that it would ruin his entire career, he was, to my limited knowledge at least, very very good for a very long time. Didn't he basically carry at least 1 sub-par Philly team to the finals basically single-handedly a number of years ago?

NOW, though, certainly, all those years of playing with reckless abandon have completely taken their toll.

I just remember several years ago, there were some people saying he might be the best, or certainly ONE of the best little men to ever play the game, and there was some rumination over just how good he might have been if he'd been 6'6", say, instead of 6'0".

Obviously take all that with a grain of salt, given how much I know, but it sounded reasonable to me at the time.

-Arlos

[vonkaar]

I dunno that it would ruin his entire career, he was, to my limited knowledge at least, very very good for a very long time. Didn't he basically carry at least 1 sub-par Philly team to the finals basically single-handedly a number of years ago?

Yes... he became the shortest MVP ever that year and won the scoring title for the 2nd time (3x overall). He was pretty much unstoppable that year. I remember one game where he launched a three with 2 guys in his face, both over 6'7". There's no possible way he could have seen the basket... time was out so he chucked it. Nothing but net.

I just remember several years ago, there were some people saying he might be the best, or certainly ONE of the best little men to ever play the game, and there was some rumination over just how good he might have been if he'd been 6'6", say, instead of 6'0".

If that was on NT, it was probably me... I've said all that for years.

[Zanchief]

So how do you explain the disparity in productivity not only on the team he left, but the team he went to?

Iverson is only 1 year older than Chauncey is. Iverson isn't battling injuries. Yes, he's a dynamic scorer, especially when you consider his size. It's pretty easy to score a ton of baskets when you get 30 shot attempts on a team that's built around feeding you the ball and you make no attempt to run the team. I just don't think you can ignore the clear disparity in talent between a guy who was considered a very good PG (Billups) to a guy who is considered one of the best to every play (Iverson).

Fight with me Vonk!

[vonkaar]

It's like... Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell

Dynamic scorer vs team-comes-first genius. Wilt goes down as the 'greatest ever' (at the time) and the other is remembered for winning. Is Wilt 'better' than Bill because of all the individual accomplishments he achieved and records he set? Is Bill better than Wilt because he has 10 fucking championship rings?

Iverson has done some absolutely crazy things as a guard in this league. Winning isn't one of them. How many players can you say that about? How many hall-of-famers? Plenty. Hell, KG just narrowly avoided joining this list. Dirk will likely make it... Would you compare John Paxson or Sam Cassell (good PGs but hardly anybody puts either in a top ten list) to Steve Nash or Jason Kidd? The last 2 obviously had superior skill, but... John & Sam won.

[Zanchief]

Russel won 11 and Wilt won 2. I'm a Wilt fan so I never understood why he was always considered a "loser" when he won 2 championships.

Well I don't think you can really compare Billups to Sam Cassel or John Paxson because even though they were starting PGs on winning teams they weren't stars. Plus put those guys int their prime on this Denver team and I don't see them playing that well. Nash or Kidd on the other hand could easily be at least close to what Billups is doing, but we would have to speculate since we don't have as close to proof as we can get in the basketball world that Iverson isn't that good of a player.

[vonkaar]

Russel won 11 and Wilt won 2. I'm a Wilt fan so I never understood why he was always considered a "loser" when he won 2 championships.

Well I don't think you can really compare Billups to Sam Cassel or John Paxson because even though they were starting PGs on winning teams they weren't stars. Plus put those guys int their prime on this Denver team and I don't see them playing that well. Nash or Kidd on the other hand could easily be at least close to what Billups is doing, but we would have to speculate since we don't have as close to proof as we can get in the basketball world that Iverson isn't that good of a player.

I wasn't directly comparing Chauncey to Sam Cassel... I was trying to imply that, "Steve Nash to Chauncey Billups is what John Stockton is to Sam Cassell." John has almost all of the records... but Sam has 3 rings on 2 different teams. Steve Nash has a more more solid career - number wise, but Chauncey has the ring, finals MVP, 2 finals appearances and 5 different conference finals appearances on two different teams. On paper, Steve Nash is more of a 'shoe-in' for the hall of fame. But Billups actually 'won'. John Stockton to Sam Cassell. If only two of those guards could go into the HoF, it would be Stockton and Nash.

"Winning" isn't everything, apparently. I mean, Robert Horry won't make it in the HoF but he has 7 championships... Individual accomplishment is more celebrated in a league where it's basically impossible to win it all. Seven teams in the past 25 years have won it all, and Miami only has one (which, we'll leave alone for now). In 25 years, there have been 38 teams come and go... but only 6 were (really) able to win it all. So, do you 'only' celebrate the winners? Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki are all players that have made or will make it to the HoF without a championship ring. Vince Carter gets in, but Manu Ginobili stays out... This is a league where you almost *have* to celebrate the players with individual accomplishments OVER those with championships. Allen Iverson is pretty much the poster boy for the 'individual stats' crew.

Also... I wasn't saying that Chamberlain isn't a 'winner'. Compare him to the ultimate team-player 'winner' and he falls short - in respect to 'winning'. It would be impossible to choose just one to join the hall-of-fame.

[Zanchief]

Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Karl Malone, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki well aside from Vince, all those guys played on very competitive teams and helped make their teams better. I'm not sure AI did either of those. The one year he made it to the finals and got trounced by the Lakers (4-1) he came out of the second round by one jump shot (by Vince) and played a pretty poor Milwaukee team to get there. Had Vince made that game winner (which he's done dozens of times in his career) he'd really have nothing to show for his entire post season career.

But all that aside, I don't think the only qualification for greatness is winning it all, but it is winning and making your team better. I can't think of many teams that would have been better all season long with AI, and this is a guy who's supposed to be a HoFer.

[vonkaar]

Do you think Dwayne Wade or Gilbert Arenas are likely to make the HoF? Wade has missed the playoffs more than he's made it... Arenas will likely *never* get to the finals. Wade will probably leave Miami next year and possibly play for a contender, but Arenas is stuck in Washington. Both guys will put up ridiculous numbers and might even win an MVP. They are on track to make the HoF - even on those shitty teams. Again, this league values the individual more than the team.

Compare Iverson's all-nba list to Steve Nash or Chauncey Billups:

Iverson:
1996-97 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1998-99 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2000-01 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

Nash:
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

Billups:
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2008-09 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

[Zanchief]

If you traded Arenas for say Wade and the team that got Arenas had to cut it him because his productivity was actually a detriment to the team and the team that got Wade took a pretty big step in become a contender I think that would be a clear indication that one player's value was better then the other. Combine this with the fact that Billups has always been a bit underrated, all I;m saying is peoples perception of these players might be a bit off and here is a good concrete example of why.

[vonkaar]

Tell me that you think a 32 year old Chauncey would be 'as productive' as a 25-year old Iverson...

Chauncey Billups sat on the bench for the first 4 years in the league, while AI was called the fastest *ever* during that time. Wear and tear caught up with Allen. Chauncey is a guard who found a second wind by playing for a coach who lusted after him for years. Iverson was traded to the Pistons basically as cap-space. He never could have worked in that slow, defense-first system. Put him in New York or Oakland and we'd see a ridiculous comeback.

Arenas and Wade are more comparable... they have both had similar careers. Despite their similar age, Billups and Iverson are of separate eras. It's like comparing Starbury to Nash. Drafted a year apart... but Nash sat on his ass for the first few years, while Stephon started immediately. Five years in, Stephon was the best PG out of that class, while Nash was just starting to get some real playing time in Dallas. But here we are, and Nash would start on almost any team in the league, while Stephon is washed up. Very few people can give 35 minutes for 13 years and not show serious signs of aging. Billups and Iverson were drafted a year apart, but Iverson literally has 10,000 more minutes played (that's 263 38-minute games) than Billups (36,000 vs 26,000).

[Zanchief]

I do think he's at the tail end of his career, and maybe those years have put more miles on him then Chancey, but I think there are always going to be very good players, and there are going to be winning players. I don't think AI was ever a winning* player.

*again, I don't think winning, necessarily means Championship. Wilkins made those Hawks teams much better but he just had to go against a stacked Eastern conference when he was around. AI had a pretty wide-open field his entire career in the east and squeaked into the finals once.

[Gypsiyee]

gogo game 6 orlando, go!

[vonkaar]

*again, I don't think winning, necessarily means Championship. Wilkins made those Hawks teams much better but he just had to go against a stacked Eastern conference when he was around. AI had a pretty wide-open field his entire career in the east and squeaked into the finals once.

Just the same, I don't think that Chauncey Billups, in his best year, could have taken that 76ers team to the finals.

Back on topic - That Orlando win was pretty freaking incredible. It shows how much Lebron is carrying that team... freaking 49/6/8/3/2 and it still wasn't enough.

[Gypsiyee]

vonk, I need you to channel your inner godliness and make that series go to 6. we have front row seats, and I would be awful sad if it was cancelled >.<

[vonkaar]

holy shit, that's awesome... I've only sat courtside once in my life... when the Mavs were starting the "3 Jays" - Jason Kidd, Jamaal Mashburn and Jim Jackson. We were completely destroyed by the Sonics =(.

It'll go to 6, definitely.

[Zanchief]

I don't see Orlando beating the Cavs at home again in the series so that means there only chance is winning all their home games.

I see it going 6 though (maybe 7).