NBA playoffs

[Lyion]

Hmm, I dislike the Magic and Lakers. I dislike both Van Grumpy and Phil.

Well, at least Boston won't win this year. That's something.

I predict Lakers win it in 5. That is unless they take games off like they have throughout the playoffs.

[Gypsiyee]

I dislike both Van Grumpy and Phil.

Why? I like both of them a lot - totally different coaching styles, though.

I don't think the Lakers will take it so easily in 5 - I think the Magic will win at least 2 at home.

[Lyion]

I think Phil is overrated, and has always benefited from elite players, and his zenmaster triangle voodoo again is overrated. I do think he's a good guy, though.

I just think Van Gundy is a chump and a jerk. Shaq was right.

The Lakers should win in 5, but since they take games off it could easily go 7. I think they'll win it in 5, though. I think the Magic matched up well with the Cavs. They do not match up well with the Lakers, who have more pieces than Cleveland.

[Gypsiyee]

They do not match up well with the Lakers, who have more pieces than Cleveland.

Regular season disagrees with you there - only big difference will be them not having Nelson, but their bench has been huge for them in the playoffs thus far (read: Pietrus. I've also really like Lee - I think in a couple years time he'll be fantastic.)

I think it'll be a pretty competitive series - I'm a Kobe fan and I like Gasol a lot too, but I'm still pulling for the Magic, if not to win than to at least keep things interesting - I think they'll deliver there for sure. Like I said, I think they'll win at least 2 at home.

[vonkaar]

Jordon never won until Phil arrived...
Shaq never won until Phil arrived...
Kobe never won until Phil arrived...

I'm not saying that he's the best ever like many people believe... he has clearly been out coached before, especially with Larry Brown. But - it's hard to argue with success. And as far as, "he's always had talent..." well, no shit. Name a single top ten coach who has won the championship in the past THIRTY years without a FIRST-BALLOT hall-of-famer. Larry Brown - that's it. Go down the list...

Though... Van Gundy is a jerk.

Lakers in 6.

[Lyion]

Jordon never won until Phil arrived...
Shaq never won until Phil arrived...
Kobe never won until Phil arrived...
Lakers in 6.

I seem to recall Shaq winning in Miami. Maybe you remember that?

Kobe was a teenager before Phil arrived. A lot of raw talent there, but still amazing potential and growth. There's no comparison between Kobe in 1997, Kobe in 2001, and even Kobe today.

Jackson benefited from timing, ascending to the Bulls head coaching position during the turnover of the old Laker's and Celtic guard. I think he's a GOOD coach, however my opinion is he's a bit overrated. Coaching team's with Jordan, then Kobe and Shaq show he is definitely smart enough to get himself in the best position. I think Rodman and Pippen were great roleplayers and I think Phil had a team he gelled with. I also think Jackson wrecked a potential dynasty in L.A. So much for the peaceful Zen.

You can't argue with the hardware and Phil has the titles. He's gotten it done, but I think more of that was his situation than his coaching. Again, that's just my opinion. If he had beat a better Celtics team last year, that would have been something else.

In regards to your coaches who win titles without superstars deal: Given the nature of the league, the separation in talent, the rather dubious officiating, and their desire for dynasties, it's tough to compare coaches. My point is unlike the NFL, basketball is won by the players, and occasionally by officiating. It is very rarely won by coaching. When the Rockets won in the 90s, it had nothing to do with coaching. It had everything to do with Olajuwon kicking ass.

Phil is doing more with less, since his team isn't ridiculously better, but it isn't like he took the Clippers or Bullets to the finals.

[vonkaar]

Jordon never won until Phil arrived...
Shaq never won until Phil arrived...
Kobe never won until Phil arrived...
Lakers in 6.

I seem to recall Shaq winning in Miami. Maybe you remember that?

lol

perhaps you missed the key word in all of my statements

until

until != WITHOUT

Jordon was with the bulls for 4 years and was a truly amazing player. Led the league in scoring twice, got his first MVP... but couldn't get out of the playoffs, often losing early. Then Phil Jackson arrives, and they win it all... and repeated it 5 times. Shaq and Kobe were teammates for 3 years and repeatedly lost early in the playoffs ('96 lost 3-1 to the Rockets in round1, '97 lost 3-1 to the Jazz in round2, '98 lost 4-1 to the Jazz in round3). Phil Jackson arrives and they again make it to round2 but lose to the eventual champions - San Antonio. Then the 'dynasty' begins and they win 3 in a row.

So... 3 great players... did amazing things early in their careers - but never won until Phil Jackson arrived.

If you are so dismissive of coaches ("nba is all about the players, blahblah"), why call 'any' of them overrated? Since good or bad coaching makes no difference (in your mind), why is Phil Jackson any more overrated than any coach? Pat Riley won EVERY TIME with ridiculous talent. Is he overrated? Greg Popavich enjoyed the presence of one of the greatest players ever - is he overrated? If all coaches basically amount to '0' in your book, why knock any of them?

Oh, and... Hakeem's rockets won for a single reason - Jordon's dad died. Rudy T is a great coach, and those Rockets were amazing... but they would not have beaten the Bulls with Jordon.

Finally... if you honestly blame Phil Jackson for the feud between Kobe and Shaq, then I'm not going to argue with you. You have some strange bias against him and I can't help that.

[Susvain]

this season doesnt count. fuck the magic fuck the lakers, there is no one worth rooting for left in the playoffs. dwight howard sucks.

[Harrison]

Susvain lives in MA btw

[Lyion]

If you are so dismissive of coaches ("nba is all about the players, blahblah"), why call 'any' of them overrated? Since good or bad coaching makes no difference (in your mind), why is Phil Jackson any more overrated than any coach? Pat Riley won EVERY TIME with ridiculous talent. Is he overrated? Greg Popavich enjoyed the presence of one of the greatest players ever - is he overrated? If all coaches basically amount to '0' in your book, why knock any of them?

I think RIley, Jackson, and Popovich are good coaches. However, Phil has the much better rep, and I feel he isn't. That's pretty much all there is to that.

Oh, and... Hakeem's rockets won for a single reason - Jordon's dad died. Rudy T is a great coach, and those Rockets were amazing... but they would not have beaten the Bulls with Jordon..

Which somewhat reinforces my point about player/coach dynamic. Riley looks like the greatest coach in the world when he trots out titles with Magic, Scott, Kareem, Worthy, and crew. Likewise Phil with Jordan, Rodman, etc, and Popovich with the S.A. crew.

I think bad coaches can be outfoxed. Hi, Mike Brown. However, I think good teams and coaches put their players in a position to win and it comes down to that. The NBA ain't the NFL in regards to the impact of coaching.

[vonkaar]

heh, well we pretty much agree then

damnit, I was enjoying an NBA debate... haven't had one in a while. Say something negative about Dirk

[Arlos]

What can you say bad about Dirk? I mean, he even has AWESOME taste in women he dates.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

heh, well we pretty much agree then

damnit, I was enjoying an NBA debate... haven't had one in a while. Say something negative about Dirk

I like Dirk.

Now, Mark Cuban? Complete douchenozzle. Bad for the NBA. Spoiled brats who make millions from Internet bubble inflated stock make piss poor owners.

[Zanchief]

heh, well we pretty much agree then

damnit, I was enjoying an NBA debate... haven't had one in a while. Say something negative about Dirk

He choked against GS?

[vonkaar]

get your crazy canuck spelling of "choked" out of here.

I hate all of you

[Zanchief]

I see nothing.

[vonkaar]

good game1. They can't stop Kobe... freaking Pietrus on him? They are so screwed.

[Zanchief]

Well I don't think the result means the Magic are done. Three point shooting teams always get blown out when they don't hit their shots. Next game they could go 15/22 for three and win by 20. So goes the life of a shooting team.

[vonkaar]

I only saw around 10 missed shots last night that were completely uncontested. If they hit ALL of those, *and* Phil still decided to bench his starters late in the 4th, then maybe it would have made a difference. Orlando has no options for Kobe... J.J. was seemingly their best candidate, and I'm sure Kobe would *love* to play against him all night. Yes, Orlando's poor shooting was a factor, but I chalk that up to 'great defense' more than 'lid on the basket'. L.A. can continue to play great defense, and Orlando can improve their shooting - but Kobe isn't going to be stopped this series. The Lakers simply appear to be better prepared than Orlando. But that's a nod to superior coaching, and we wouldn't mention that in this thread .

Still... this reminds me of 2006. We are either going to have a sweep, or the Refs are going to start blowing whistles like crazy. Dwight Howard will be untouchable. Gasol and Bynum will have 3-4 fouls each in the first half and Howard will dominate. If that happens, expect it to go to seven.

[Lyion]

They do not match up well with the Lakers, who have more pieces than Cleveland.

Regular season disagrees with you there - only big difference will be them not having Nelson, but their bench has been huge for them in the playoffs thus far (read: Pietrus. I've also really like Lee - I think in a couple years time he'll be fantastic.)

I think it'll be a pretty competitive series - I'm a Kobe fan and I like Gasol a lot too, but I'm still pulling for the Magic, if not to win than to at least keep things interesting - I think they'll deliver there for sure. Like I said, I think they'll win at least 2 at home.

Newp.

They are down 3-1, heading back to L.A.

As Don Meredith sang: "Turn out the lights, the parties over."

LA in 5, just like I said.

[Gypsiyee]

er, they play in orlando on sunday.

[vonkaar]

2-3-2 in the finals

[Lyion]

DIdn't matter.

It's a shame the Cav's didn't make it to the finals. It would've been a better series.

[Gypsiyee]

jesus, they played like shit.

[Reynaldo]

And thus it begins....the long hot dark of summer with nothing but baseball until football season.....