Required purchase of health insurance?

[Gypsiyee]

we're not talking about numbers, we're talking about people. it isn't black and white like that.

[KaiineTN]

I laid out precisely how government should be in our lives, and left it wide open for local government.

And a free market (which we don't have, by the way) is and will always be more efficient at providing higher quality goods and services to people at lower costs than any other form of market. Government intervention can only distort markets and raise costs, if not directly, then indirectly.

Is it wrong for an insurance company to choose profit over saving lives? In your opinion, sure, but they certainly have the right to choose what they choose. And you have the right to say they're a bunch of fucking assholes and not give them your business.

Is it wrong for an insurance company to use government to secure monopolistic advantages and essentially force you to be part of a system that offers you no choice? Absolutely.

Is the solution getting rid of those advantages and opening the doors to maximize competition, or just having the government take away the rights of businesses to operate as they want?

We just have a difference of opinion when it comes to that. You see, I believe businesses have rights just like individuals, rights that should be protected. They should more or less be able to do whatever they want as long as they're playing fair and not hurting anyone else. Problem is, they AREN'T playing fair and it's BECAUSE of government. It is BECAUSE government was allowed to grow in complexity to the point of creating so many damn loopholes for corporations to slide through that we end up with messes like the one we're in. It's BECAUSE of regulations like what an insurance provider must cover that drives THIRTY SIX of THIRTY EIGHT insurance providers to LEAVE THE STATE (reminder: currently illegal to purchase insurance across State lines). Please for the love of God at least admit the government has some fault in this and is not the saviour that will always be there to solve everything.

[leah]

saviour? really? are you canadian now? :P

[Zanchief]

I'd take Flinks posts seriously if they didn't look like a 90s geocities webpage.

[ClakarEQ]

Kaiine, I don't think you've got it right when it comes to companies. I also agree they have rights but the reason the GOV got involved was not what you think it was. the GOV was forced by the people to get involved. They did what the people wanted, stop monopolies, implement consumer protections, force safety standards and work ethics, etc etc.

It's not like companies were all nicey nicey with their employees. We the people told our GOV to step in, if you want someone to blame, go back down your family tree and ask great grandpa why he stepped up and said, GOV protect me from my fascist employer.

At the end of the day it comes down to whatever the majority of people want, 51% is all it takes and that 49% will have to suck it up and deal with it.

A few things in this entire debate I find disturbing

- Folks that feel $$ > someone's desire to live and be well (i.e. Ron Paul, Kaiine, etc)
- Media whom only display the anti-healthcare movements of this issue (where are all the media when it comes to the all the meetings across the nation that are FOR this health care plan)
- Christians, or the folks that call themselves Christians (I'm finding (more and more) Christianity to be one of the most hypocritical religions man kind has ever been exposed to)

[Naethyn]

First of all, no one in this argument thinks money > people. Stop using that argument.

Second of all, the people who feel nationalized healthcare is a bad idea because of the financial impact it would have on our already outstanding deficit have a valid point. Eventually this system of limitless spending will crash. It HAS to crash. Spending our way into oblivion will surely result in a lower quality of life for every American.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking anyone who doesn't support this idea believes money is more important than lives. It's much like those who called anyone who was against the war in Iraq unpatriotic. It' just not true.

[ClakarEQ]

I don't mean to say or imply that Naet. However this in a lot of ways is not much different then the financial bailout. I know you were not a fan of that but it, at least right now, it looks to have helped.

The deal is if nothing is done, the baby boomers will bankrupt out nation via Medicare (that is the cliff notes IMO, I'm not getting into the detail). If you follow the boomers throughout the decades, they have made and broken companies and economies. At the current trend, if nothing is done, in order to cover the existing programs with the massive influx of unhealthy baby boomers, you, me and every working person will be tapped until dry to cover the massive Medicare / cade costs to cover them all.

IMO the boomers are much to blame for they fed on today with no regard to tomorrow and now the 20 through 40 something's are just now having to pay for it.

While you say it HAS to crash, and I'm not doubting it may one day, I could say the same, medical coverage in our country HAS to change, the result of not changing medical care in our country will crash the economy as well.

[KaiineTN]

At the end of the day it comes down to whatever the majority of people want, 51% is all it takes and that 49% will have to suck it up and deal with it.

That is precisely why I think Democracy is a bunch of bullshit. It is nothing more than the tyranny of the majority, far from a good form of government. Please, tell me how democracy is superior to what we were founded as, a constitutional republic? A constitutional republic is the rule of law, and it protects the rights of the minority.

If 51% of people say you're a bad parent and want to take away your kids, are you okay with that? If 51% say public education is a must and your kid MUST go through the government-run system regardless of your desire and ability to homeschool, are you okay with that? If 51% of people say I've got nothing to hide, sure, you can go through everyone's emails and monitor phone calls, are you okay with that? Don't you see the importance of protecting individual rights from majority rule?

All it takes for democracy to make a mess of things is a dumbed down population and a charismatic leader. Ruh Roh Scooby.

[ClakarEQ]

Kaiine, run for government then because I don't see how it would be remotely possible to come close to anything that we once were or once wanted.

The massive boulder is rolling down a hill that has no valley in site.

That said, what country would you rather be in because it is obivous to me, you don't like it here, where is better?

[KaiineTN]

There are no other options. America was the experiment in liberty, and it seems we've all but given up having it be a priority. Give me some of those Superman crystals and I'll go create my own landmass and make it into a country.

Some countries out there do some things right, but none offer the same kind of freedom and opportunity that America once did.

I was somewhat involved in local politics for a while, but I'm probably too bitter and disgusted with how things operate to get anywhere in the system. Something to think about I suppose.

[brinstar]

get

a

job

you

little

creep

[Arlos]

Kaiine is wrong about a great many things. First and foremost that unfettered capitalism is in some way good for consumers. Guess what, it isn't. The inevitable result of unregulated industries is a tendency towards monopolies. Look at the business climate of the late 1800s, which gave rise to anti-trust laws as a result. Furthermore, unregulated industries were responsible for massive environmental damage, including the dumping of poisons into our waterways and into the air, and even further reprehensible situations like Love Canal. (look it up) Hell, how many people died due to lung issues from Asbestos before the government stepped in and made companies not only clean it up, but warn people about its presence?

Furthermore, he seems to have this pollyannish view of states as independent entities. Sorry, but the USA hasn't been a loose aggregate of independent states since the Civil War. Indeed, at it's heart, that is largely what the war was ABOUT. Before the war, yes, the proper way of referring to the United States would have been "The United States are..." Afterward, though, it became "The United States IS..." State's Rights in the primacy was a miserable failure. Just look at the problems the Confederates had during the war as a result of that philosophy.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

saviour? really? are you canadian now? :P

fuck you

he's your brand of douche, not ours

[leah]

saviour? really? are you canadian now? :P

fuck you

he's your brand of douche, not ours

[Jay]

Honestly I hear soooo much bitching from you Kaiine it's ridiculous. Why not DO something about it? Instead of sitting in the bedroom your parents pay for and whining on NT, get a job and learn how to overcome problems. What right do you have to complain about our government when your jobless, economic draining ass hasn't provided any tax money towards it. Fiscal conservative? The only reason you're a fiscal conservative is because you don't have enough money to choose otherwise. I'd be a fiscal conservative too if all I had to live off of was the allowance my parents gave me.

[brinstar]

saviour? really? are you canadian now? :P

fuck you

he's your brand of douche, not ours

don't lump us in with that fuckin' martian!

[Gypsiyee]

That is precisely why I think Democracy is a bunch of bullshit.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for those others that have been tried from time to time. - Winston Churchill

yesterday I had a post typed out and when I submitted it the page timed out (again.) I was going to retype it, but then I realized there's no use talking to someone so obtuse.

[leah]

ok really though, kaiine, do you really not have a job? like, honestly. i haven't seen you say "shut up guys, i have a job here doing this." and now i'm getting kind of concerned. is this true??

...and if you in fact do not have a job, doesn't that strike you as kind of preposterous?? to whine about taxes and health care and bullshit like that when you aren't a contributing member of society??

[Gypsiyee]

I tried that approach Leah - I hope it works out better for you

[Spazz]

Kaiine its not that hard of a question. Do you have a mother fuckin job or what dude? Will answering this one question make your whole stance crumble?

Let me ask you another question. You think its people without healthcares fault they dont have it. Do you have any pre existing conditions ? Anything thats haunted you since birth? Ive got athasma and I dont think you have a clue whats its like to have a pre existing condition like that follow you around. 425 bucks a month for me to go and get private insurence and thats the bottom of the barrel. SHould I just go and die becuase i was born sick ? Without the govt stepping in to help me im pretty much fucked. Tell me what should people like me do. Its not profitable to insure someone who actually needs prescription meds and hospitol visits.

All im saying is your position seems to be full of holes. First problem is that you inherited money ( didnt earn it) and your afraid the govt is going to tax it away. Second problem is that it looks to me like you dont even have a job and you are bitching about taxes you dont have to pay. From the things your saying it looks like youve done alot of reading and listining but you havent the slightest clue about how the real world works. So wich is it are you a working member of society or are you just another unemployed armchair quarterback ?

[Naethyn]

It's laughable how the majority of you criticize Kaiine instead of debating the actual issue. Is that all you have to stand on? Criticize the opponent to devalue his stand? Pathetic.

Ironic as it reminds me of the countless times politicians do this when "debating" the Obama plan. (birth certificate etc.)

It's irrelevant.

[Spazz]

Its very easy to get lost on the issue when you read some of the things others write. I find it kind of funny that we can have 2 wars massive tax cuts for the ritch etc but when we talk about something that can help everyone all of a sudden the facts get lost in nonsense and people bitch about spending money.

Im shocked there is actually a debate about what to do about health care to be honest. The cost of it drags people into bankruptycy , Fucks with buisness ability to compete and when you look across the pond at what other countries have done with healthcare its sad to me we cant do the same.

The thing that gets me the most is the people who defend insurence companies. But hey they got the right to make a profit so lets let them be and continue to watch the country go downhill to the highest bidder.

I dont think a lot of people on the nt or this country get that this isnt just politics or money but life and death to a lot of people.


Since you wanted to chime in here when it was clear i wasnt talking to you naethyn perhaps you can answer the question. What should people with pre existing conditions do about health care?

[ClakarEQ]

Since you wanted to chime in here when it was clear i wasnt talking to you naethyn perhaps you can answer the question. What should people with pre existing conditions do about health care?

Ron Paul would say, let them die :P, as would several folks here it seems.

[10sun]

Nobody has explained to me why I HAVE to get medical insurance now when I am carrying a catastrophic insurance policy [High Deductible Health Plan, HDHP for short] with a HSA? When the HSA option became available, I jumped on that boat because I saw that as a viable option as a 1099 contractor rather than frittering away my money?

Sorry, but I want my money to pay for my healthcare. Not someone else's.

[Naethyn]

I do not like the war on ideas. Be it terrorism, poverty, drugs, whatever. It has never ended well. Look at when we tried to go to war with idea of communism. It always ends in the same result. I hate to see healthcare added to that list.

The biggest concern I have with the entire healthcare debate is the money that will be printed to support it. Every year the value of our dollar goes down. To the point of people thinking it's natural for this to occur. Inflation is not normal. It is a direct result of increasing the money supply.

Government has it's role. People should not doubt the wisdom our founding fathers had.