Required purchase of health insurance?

[Naethyn]

Since you wanted to chime in here when it was clear i wasnt talking to you naethyn perhaps you can answer the question. What should people with pre existing conditions do about health care?

Ron Paul would say, let them die :P, as would several folks here it seems.

You obviously have no idea who Dr. Ron Paul is.

[Spazz]

Good dodge You wanted a debate so im going to demand an answer. What should people with pre existing conditions do in our current healthcare system?

The biggest concern I have with the entire healthcare debate is the money that will be printed to support it. Every year the value of our dollar goes down. To the point of people thinking it's natural for this to occur. Inflation is not normal. It is a direct result of increasing the money supply.

There you go hiding behind political speak. To many this isnt about money but about life and death. SHould i find a figure of how many people die a year due to lack of healthcare? Or does that not matter to you becuase of "inflation"? Ya know we raise a ton of money in taxes and then turn right around and waste it. The debate shouldnt be about weather we will or wont have socialized medicine but instead how we can fund it.

[Naethyn]

I have no idea what people with preexisting conditions should do in our current heath care system. Socialized heath care is not the only option for this situation. It may not even be the option to correct it! Do not be blind in your options.

Let me remind us again of how blind we were walking into Iraq. If you did not support it you were unpatriotic. The same way the people who have posted here say we want everyone without health care to die. It's not true. It's the same argument.

And yes, I think inflation is a MUCH more important topic to discuss. Our quality of life is far more danger from the devaluation of the dollar. Many people will suffer.

Also, if you've read this from the start I initially said spending money on healthcare is not the worst thing possible. We've done far worse with wars. I just don't know if now is the right time. We are broke.

Read up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_tax

"Many economists hold that the inflation tax affects the lower and middle classes more than the rich, as they hold a larger fraction of their income in cash."

This is why the rich do not care how much money is printed. They are vested in land and other material possessions that will gain in value with a system that endlessly prints money. It's the people who hold on to money to pay for bills day to day that lose out.

[Naethyn]

Why inflation matters. Just listen.

[Spazz]

Im afraid I disagree with you on single payer. Without it Im convinced things are going to get worse and worse. If health care goes on the way it has been its soon going to be a luxury only the rich will have. But that might be what it takes to get that kind of major change done.

As far as our country being broke well theres a reason for it. Infact its the same as why healthcare is totally fucked. Most of our countries problems can be based on greed. A greedy few have walked off with a lot of americas wealth. Health insurance companies, hedgefund managers, major banks and defense contracters. But that is another thread and would be one hell of a derail.

[Spazz]

As far as Ron Paul goes the guy is a wackjob and your assuming he has credibility with me. If you boy ever got to put his ideas into play this country would crumble.

[Naethyn]

You out of any I would think to be a major supporter of him. He believes people should be responsible for their own decisions and what they put in their bodies.

You'd probably be surprised how much his ideas and your own align. I'd go as far to say they align more then any other candidate to date. Which I suppose only strengthens your argument of him being a wackjob. As he surely has the same opinions as you.

[Spazz]

No. Yes i beleive people should be free to smoke weed and own machine guns. But i also think shcools need to be funded, and that corperations and banks need heavy regulations. I think unemployment and welfare and wic are good ideas. Lastly i think every man woman and child should have healthcare from the day they are born till the day they die. Other than removing a few morality laws from the books I dont think him and I agree on a whole lot.

[Gypsiyee]

No. Yes i beleive people should be free to smoke weed and own machine guns. But i also think shcools need to be funded, and that corperations and banks need heavy regulations. I think unemployment and welfare and wic are good ideas. Lastly i think every man woman and child should have healthcare from the day they are born till the day they die. Other than removing a few morality laws from the books I dont think him and I agree on a whole lot.

qft. I thought I aligned with him fairly closely, and the more I learned about him the more I realized he was pretty much the polar opposite aside from a few surface issues.

[10sun]

Thinking about it, I'd be game for this program so long as it were supplemented by a new sin tax on fast foods.

10% fast food sin tax.

How does that sound?

The rise of fast food parallels the rise in obesity in the US, think there might be a correlation? Think there is a correlation between the parallel rise in obesity and health care costs?

[ClakarEQ]

Nobody has explained to me why I HAVE to get medical insurance now when I am carrying a catastrophic insurance policy [High Deductible Health Plan, HDHP for short] with a HSA? When the HSA option became available, I jumped on that boat because I saw that as a viable option as a 1099 contractor rather than frittering away my money?

Sorry, but I want my money to pay for my healthcare. Not someone else's.

I don't know that you would "HAVE" to. If you have a health plan, and as you've described it here, you do, then nothing would change for you, as I understand it.

But this is all in a state of flux so who the hell knows what will happen when and if it gets signed.

[KaiineTN]

If you have a pre existing condition, you got dealt some bad cards and naturally your healthcare costs will be higher than someone who has no pre existing conditions. Don't like it? Too bad. It isn't right to make someone generally healthy, like myself, pay more to cover the added cost from your conditions, whether you were born with them or developed them over time or whatever. Down the road if I end up developing some condition, I would expect my insurance rates to rise, as I would be more of a risk for the insurer. That's just how life is. What right do you have to demand that I share that risk?

My Mother has a shit ton of pre existing conditions. Her employer dropped her insurance a long time ago. She now has a large deductible "catastrophe plan," and covers her typical expenses out of pocket. This is precisely what more people should be doing, as it will create a marketplace of fluctuating prices for services and products that insurance mostly pays for now. When insurance is paying for it, you don't care what it costs. Insurance companies do, and they pass the costs on to you. People are too quick to blame "greed" for all of our problems, which I think is a very dumbed down and narrow minded view of what's going on, yet their answer is more greed in a form that directly benefits them.

I guess a bunch of you guys think a society should share the costs of providing healthcare for everyone? Why? Because it sounds like a nice, humanistic thing to do? Have you considered the potential consequences? Do you know that once we go down that road, there will be no turning back, even if costs were to double and care was to be rationed? What's wrong with just having all medical related expenses be fully tax deductible? Hell, even make insurance tax deductible. That, along with allowing as much competition as possible in the insurance industry by loosening up regulations that end up benefitting the most established companies and driving the rest away, would be a much better solution, imo. But I guess that's too complicated for people, they just want the government to come in and give them what they want, without realizing the government gives nothing that it doesn't first take.

[Arlos]

To sum up then:

Those who are lucky enough to be completely healthy and rich, hey, they're fine.
Anyone else, hey, tough shit, you can go die now, because I don't care enough about anyone else to be willing to help.

Calvinist much?

-Arlos

[KaiineTN]

To sum up Arlos:

I don't think people help each other enough. Let's use government force to take their money and use it for nice things for each other. That will make the world a nicer place.

[Spazz]

I think one sounds alot better than the other.

[leah]

ok kaiine, now you're just being silly. just to get rid of this elephant in the room: do you or don't you have a job? and if so, what is it? i really am just genuinely curious now, because you are avoiding it so completely.

here, i'll start: i work at a publishing company and am an editor for Processor magazine (sign up--it's free! http://www.processor.com). i have been here for 3 1/4 years. i get health insurance, luckily, although it doesn't cover any of the stuff that i would actually want to use it for--yearly lady exams and birth control, to be exact. i pay between $15 and $20 per week for this coverage, and have a $1,000 deductible. it was the cheapest option offered to me, and since i rarely get sick (or at least, not sick enough for a doctor visit), i was happy to choose it.

furthermore, i have no pre-existing conditions (aside from a history of obesity in my past, though that never gave me diabeetus or anything), luckily enough.

your turn! really, at first i was being a little catty, but now i just really want to know what your background is here.

[ClakarEQ]

Wow Kaiine, you got it right.

Isn't it a shame that our nation has become so self centered, so uncaring, that we have to be forced like children to take care of our own. To force corp.. America to make less profit and spread some of it around.

I wish it wasn't this way, but too many think like you Kaiine, so Mom and Dad have to step in.

I hope folks realize the founding fathers would spin in their graves if they saw the greed and selfishness that has run rampant in our nation. They would also spin if they saw the size of GOV. Yet the size of GOV is a direct result of corp greed and the peoples demands for protection, be it physical or financial.

EDIT
damn i typed that too fast LOL

[KaiineTN]

Our government has created the environment that allows us to be so uncaring because it teaches us to be dependant on it rather than on each other. I would rather have the latter, what about you? Is it not selfish to think you should have healthcare provided by the government, and by extension, by everyone else? Why Jew things up by having government act as a middle man for our charity?

Perhaps you are right about our founding fathers being disappointed by the greed and selfishness, but I can assure you they wouldn't think government force, in any form, would fix that.

Leah, I don't want to sidetrack this thread. I have multiple sources of income and do not wish to disclose information about them at this time.

[Naethyn]

Who do you think payed the people who want to get the health insurance bills passed?

The insurance companies WANT this. Wake up.

[ClakarEQ]

No our government didn't create that environment. Why would you think that? How did our government do that exactly? By forceing corps to do good by the people?

Do you actually believe that if the GOV didn't step in and stop corps from their greedy evils that we would be better off? That some how a light would go off in societies head that says, gee, I should really donate money to the church and to all these wonderful causes, o yeah, but I can't cuz I only get paid 50.00 a year and am already on gov cheese?

We should depend on our government, that is part of their job, seriously man, wtf?

And if you don't think we should depend on them, then WTF do we have an army for? You've got water and electricty at your house right, how the fuck do you think it got there? You drive? who do you think put that road down you're driving on? I think you've lost site of all the great things our government forces corps to do for us.

You're seriously niave to think the good hearts of the people would do this on their own. Humans by their nature are selfish greedy fucks. It is the few and far between people that do the "right thing".

Naet Ninja'd
I don't give a flying fuck if the insurance companies want this. If it improves their bottom line, good for them.

They didn't pay me and I want it, they didn't pay the 100's of thousands of folks that meet on this all the time but get no "media attention" that want it. What you're ignoreing is power in numbers. You may think insurance will have an upper hand, who do you think will have who's balls in their hand after this. Naet, I think you'd say the insurance companies will have the peoples balls, I however think the exact opposite. I could be wrong, but so could you.

[ClakarEQ]

And another thing, the insurance companies "think" they want this. I don't know if that is true. I don't recall reading anything from an authority to say insurance companies are chomping at the bit on this.

I'm not sure they do though, I don't think they're going to like all the potentials - standardized fees, can't exempt people, can't increase rates, etc.

I think they, like most dumb ass corps think, what about the now, how can I profit NOW, tomorrow, screw that, it's someone else's problem. You ask an insurance CEO today, sure I can seem them drooling, 5 years from now, I can see them crying.

[Naethyn]

The only thing that could make this better is if Biden was once the VP of Blue Cross & Blue Shield which the government then uses to contract all of it's insurance for.

Wait... sorry that was cheney and halliburton.

[KaiineTN]

You don't think the government creates an environment of dependancy? Hey, pay social security all your life, then depend on it to live in your retirement (even though it doesn't keep up with inflation)... Hey, have kids? Don't worry about their education, we'll process them through our system... Hey, not enough money to go to college? Don't worry, we'll give you some money and loan you the rest... All these things that on the surface seem noble, but how do these things actually end up limiting us? What do they cost? Are they fair? Should the federal government even be involved in such things? These are the questions I want to hear people asking and answering, rather than focusing on the apparent benefits. What is the opportunity cost?

The military falls into one of the three main purposes of government, providing for a common defense, so I find that to be perfectly acceptable, however, I do think our military spending is out of control and that wars of aggression, pre-emption, and occupation are morally wrong and politically retarded.

Roads, water, and electricity are responsibilities that fall onto the States, and I am arguing purely about the federal government's role here, so those points are irrelevant.

Bottom line, healthcare is and should be entirely your responsibility, no one else's. You should choose your providers. You should be in control. You should make the decisions. You should be able to shop around for the best deals. You are not entitled to the best care simply because you're American.

My argument is that insurance companies have too much control currently due to regulations that on the surface seem like they're in place to help us, but in reality they help said companies establish monopolistic advantages. This is what the corruption in Washington does, the lobbyists, the corporate influence, the fascism, etc.

[ClakarEQ]

The PEOPLE created that environment, that is what you're not getting. WE asked for it, don't bitch about getting what your and my great grandpa's WANTED the GOV to do.

You think the government over the past 100 years just went around and did what it wanted, got no input from the people, hey lets do this or do that? You think the GOV wasn't guided by corps and the people. You think that corps and the people wanted the same things?

Those roads wouldn't exist without federal assistance, nor would your water, nor would your power, etc. You realize all these things get a good number of federal bucks, it's not like your state pays for all it consumes, it gets funding, funding that is requested and demanded by the people. Who the hell created all these standards we live by, why is a stop sign red and why is it red in every state? Why is the road outside my office under construction with a big fucking banner that says "Your federal tax dollars at work"?

When all you're offered is shit, it won't matter where you go to buy, you'll still buy shit. Better yet, if all you're offered is out of reach, then you are offerend nothing and you have NO choice.

It is obvious you've not worked at a larger organization, and that's fine. But if you had, you'd know to appreciate standards, consistancy. I wouldn't want to worry about my job being transfered to Cali and then to find out Cali is 3 years behind in education because there's no FED standard. I want those standards, and I'd bet more folks do than don't, otherwise it wouldn't be that way, now would it?

So kaiine you must be a rich boy or have never had it hard, you've never lived alone wondering where you're gonna get food from next. I find rich boy folks like that a bit pathetic because they preach like they know, but you've not a clue.

You're all about money, and you're blinded by it as it seems you've never not had it. All you've been saying is if you've got the cash you're set for life, but if you don't, go suck a dick. Shocker, I'm all for socialized education, from k to masters, 100% paid for by you and me.

I'm done for now though, I'll check back tomorrow sometime. I don't think we need to keep rehashing all of this. It's pretty obvious, you're against it, I'm for it, and all I can hope is 51% of "US" is standing at my back

EDIT
I won't take it out but I apologize for my insulting statements, that was immature of me.

[10sun]

Those who are lucky enough to be completely healthy and rich, hey, they're fine.
Anyone else, hey, tough shit, you can go die now, because I don't care enough about anyone else to be willing to help.

Why do you think that you deserve my money?

I am by no means rich, I setup my HDHP & HSA because it was the cheapest way for me to make sure I would not become a burden on society.
Nor am I completely healthy, but I practice a healthy lifestyle.

I have not driven a mile in the past month in my truck, but I still managed to get on my bicycle and ride to work, school, bars, get groceries (I end up buying smaller amounts of local food rather than JUMBO everything) etc.

Don't tell me, I'm a bad person now because I am using the roads but I'm not paying a gasoline tax all the while I'm saving money because I get 30 miles per burrito?

Oh and I participated in a charity ride, volunteered for two community art festivals, and donated blood. Are you actively helping others out or just waiting for the government to force you?