Required purchase of health insurance?

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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Tikker » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:24 pm

10sun wrote:Nobody has explained to me why I HAVE to get medical insurance now when I am carrying a catastrophic insurance policy [High Deductible Health Plan, HDHP for short] with a HSA? When the HSA option became available, I jumped on that boat because I saw that as a viable option as a 1099 contractor rather than frittering away my money?

Sorry, but I want my money to pay for my healthcare. Not someone else's.



it's because you technically can't pay for your entire health care

the theory is that you are paying into a giant pool that you can draw upon if you NEED to

if you don't, it's like insurance. the money is gone, but it's there if you NEED it

is it that fucking hard to understand?
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Tikker » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:26 pm

KaiineTN wrote:
I guess a bunch of you guys think a society should share the costs of providing healthcare for everyone? Why? Because it sounds like a nice, humanistic thing to do? Have you considered the potential consequences? Do you know that once we go down that road, there will be no turning back, even if costs were to double and care was to be rationed? What's wrong with just having all medical related expenses be fully tax deductible?



are you seriously that stupid?

how does tax deductible help the person who needs a $60k procedure when they make $50k a year?

do you not get the idea that it's just like global insurance, and that if you need it, you draw from it, if not, oh well

seriously, you're the most self centered, self entitled little fucking leech
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:22 pm

Tax deductible medical insurance durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby brinstar » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:22 pm

KaiineTN wrote:I guess a bunch of you guys think a society should share the costs of providing healthcare for everyone? Why? Because it sounds like a nice, humanistic thing to do?


yes, asshole.

the people whose chance at a healthy life increases with my dollar are people, with hopes and dreams and potential (not to mention families). you can't put a dollar value on the human spirit.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:23 pm

But apparently you can put a dollar value on human freedoms.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Harrison » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:40 pm

What does that have to do with what he said?

"I don't think I should have to pay for your slice of pie."

"That slice of pie could make many people very happy."

"I FUCKING LIKE PANCAKES. FUCK YOUR PIE"
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:53 pm

You don't see the connection? He says that we can't put a dollar value on people, and I say you can't put a dollar value on freedom. Using money to save lives is certainly a good use of it, however, using money that does not belong to you for said purpose is nothing more than theft, even when done by a government. If you want to donate some of your cash to help save some lives, go for it, and if I want to spend all my cash on hookers and blow and say fuck my neighbor with cancer, you have no right to deny me of that freedom.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Harrison » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:57 pm

The moment you are taxed, it is theirs to do with as they please. (within reason, and within obvious certain constraints)

I'm not saying I agree with it in its entirety, but this is how it is.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:09 pm

So then, requiring me to purchase health insurance amounts to a tax, then? Somebody tell that to Obama.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby brinstar » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:13 pm

KaiineTN wrote:But apparently you can put a dollar value on human freedoms.


first, the "freedom" to choose what you do with the money you earn is an illusion. money is a social construct, and as such is subject to the socioeconomic forces that give it value in the first place. to say that the money you "earned" (lol) shouldn't go back into the society that gives it value is ludicrous, fallacious, and downright selfish.

second, my willingness to give up part of what i earn so others can live happier lives is not giving up or selling a chunk of my "human freedom," as you call it. besides the fact that your concept of "human freedom" no doubt takes the human out of the context of his or her society (which instantly invalidates the definition, as humans do not live in vacuums), i look at it the other way: thanks to the contributions of healthy workers like myself, the poor and sick are FREE from the debt that treating their genuine medical conditions would incur, FREE to enjoy their lives, and FREE to strive toward again crossing the line between helped and helping. THAT type of "human freedom" does not need to be removed from the context of society to be defined, and thus is realistic and viable.

third, you have a lot less "human freedom" than you seem to think you do. are you ignorant of this fact, or has Pope Ron Paul whipped you up into enough of a frenzy so that you claw and scratch at what few "freedoms" he tells you that you have left?
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby brinstar » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:24 pm

Harrison wrote:What does that have to do with what he said?

"I don't think I should have to pay for your slice of pie."

"That slice of pie could make many people very happy."

"I FUCKING LIKE PANCAKES. FUCK YOUR PIE"


this cracked me up :)
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:39 pm

In conclusion, Brinstar thinks I am an asshole, and I think he is a douchebag.

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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Tikker » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:00 am

KaiineTN wrote:So then, requiring me to purchase health insurance amounts to a tax, then? Somebody tell that to Obama.



who gives a fuck what the title is?

it's just semantics at that point


the whole point is that very very few people can actually afford complete coverage for all medical expenses

create a giant common pool, and then as you need it, you access it


will some fuckers abuse it? sure. there's always assholes

but again

get a job and contribute to society if you want anyone to remotely take you seriously
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Tikker » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:01 am

KaiineTN wrote:So then, requiring me to purchase health insurance amounts to a tax, then? Somebody tell that to Obama.



who gives a fuck what the title is?

it's just semantics at that point


the whole point is that very very few people can actually afford complete coverage for all medical expenses

create a giant common pool, and then as you need it, you access it


will some fuckers abuse it? sure. there's always assholes

but again

get a job and contribute to society if you want anyone to remotely take you seriously
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby 10sun » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:08 am

Tikker wrote:
10sun wrote:Nobody has explained to me why I HAVE to get medical insurance now when I am carrying a catastrophic insurance policy [High Deductible Health Plan, HDHP for short] with a HSA? When the HSA option became available, I jumped on that boat because I saw that as a viable option as a 1099 contractor rather than frittering away my money?

Sorry, but I want my money to pay for my healthcare. Not someone else's.



it's because you technically can't pay for your entire health care

the theory is that you are paying into a giant pool that you can draw upon if you NEED to

if you don't, it's like insurance. the money is gone, but it's there if you NEED it

is it that fucking hard to understand?


I believe you misunderstood my statement.

I have a high deductible health plan [HDHP] ($1500 deductible) which ends up at $35 a month. I pay the first $1500 of any medical bill.
In addition to that, I retain ~$5,000 in my Health Savings Account [HSA] which I thankfully have not had to touch yet aside from one $180 doctor's visit & $40 steroid cream for a severe case of poison ivy last summer.

That is my current insurance plan which does not cost me much throughout the year and it forces me to think about what I actually need.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Gypsiyee » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:39 am

10sun wrote:Thinking about it, I'd be game for this program so long as it were supplemented by a new sin tax on fast foods.

10% fast food sin tax.

How does that sound?

The rise of fast food parallels the rise in obesity in the US, think there might be a correlation? Think there is a correlation between the parallel rise in obesity and health care costs?


I'm all for it - I've actually had that conversation a lot lately. Of course there's the "what about the corporations losing money?!?!?!" argument (which would of course be Flink's, because he apparently thinks corporate profit holds greater value than human life) but I'm of the opinion that these megacorporations were always intended to be a luxury -- not a staple -- and they've evolved to being treated as grocery store equivalents which is just outrageous.

Leah, I don't want to sidetrack this thread. I have multiple sources of income and do not wish to disclose information about them at this time


so in short, no - you don't have a job and don't pay taxes. so, shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself because your argument holds absolutely no weight until you're actually integrated as a part of society. It's not a sidetrack, it's directly relevant. People who bitch the loudest contribute the least, and you're a shining example.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Naethyn » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:58 am

Maeya wrote:And then your head just aches from having your hair pulled so tight for so long...
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Hatak » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:04 am

Naethyn wrote:Please watch this!!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c8c_1253814044

I should've known better than to fall into the trap that is one of Naethyn's links. Only took 45 seconds to prove to me yet again that Ron Paul is crazy.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Naethyn » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:12 am

I love how the only argument people can make against Ron Paul is that he's crazy.

Way to listen to MSM. Not even they can debate his reasons! I couldn't expect anyone else here also.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Gidan » Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:36 pm

Something desperately needs to be done about the healthcare system in this country. We are currently in the middle of a viscous cycle that needs to stop.

More and more people are needing to seek medical attention and it is costing insurance companies more and more money. To lower losses the insurance companies need to charge more and drop high risk people. This causes more and more people to become uninsured but those same people still need medical attention. So they still goto the hospital except now the hospital is taking the loss not the insurance companies. So the hospitals start charging the insurance companies even more for the same procedures and the again the insurance companies pass this along to the customers.

This is a cycle that just doesn't end. One of the root causes of this cycle is the hospitals having to take the loses for treating people who can not afford to have medial insurance or their insurance doesn't cover what needs to be done. If hospitals can stop taking these losses, they can lower the amount they charge insurance companies for procedures (which is ridicules at this point) and insurance companies can then pass that savings on to the people.

Of course again, this would come down to greed. If the insurance companies decide this is just a great way to make a ton more money, nothing with change. It will cost the people no more then it does in medical insurance but it will cost the government a ton to keep the non wealthy insured and this will then be passed along to the people in taxes.

Alot of people don't want government control on this system, however insurance companies really do hold all the cards and they can charge whatever they want if there is not any government control on them.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Arlos » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:18 pm

The simple facts are these:

Regardless of whether or not this reform is enacted, people are going to need medical care, whether they have insurance or not.

People who are sick enough are GOING to go to the emergency room, regardless of whether or not they have insurance.

Emergency rooms WILL have to treat people. There is no way, whatsoever, that turning away sick people to die or lie there bleeding, or suffer with a broken leg or arm just because they have no insurance or sufficient funds to pay for insurance or the current uninsured cost of care will ever happen, period.

Care given to the uninsured comes out of ALL of our pockets, whether in the form of higher insurance premiums or higher taxes (even if state/local taxes). These costs are higher than they could be. Medical costs are rising at many TIMES the rate of inflation.

Emergency room care is the most expensive kind of care. People without insurance often use that as their ONLY care, because they can't afford preventative medicine via doctor's visits, etc, so frequently something that could have been corrected for $500 now costs, say, $15000 instead. This is insanely inefficient.

A completely unregulated insurance market will never happen, because in order to maximize profits, no one but the richest people would ever be able to afford premiums that would be charged to anyone who is not in absolute perfect health, has any sort of pre-existing condition, etc. This would mean vastly MORE people would be uninsured and would be be treated at the highest possible cost to everyone. The only reason that people getting insurance through their employers get coverage NOW despite pre-existing conditions is because of government mandate.



The above are all facts. The question now is what we do about it, here in the real world.

The Obama plan allows for choice. Anyone who currently has insurance is completely free to keep their current plan if they like it. Period. Also, insurance companies will be required to take people regardless of pre-existing conditions. besides private insurance companies, there will also be a public plan, which is not-for-profit, that anyone and everyone may sign up for IF THEY WISH TO, instead of a private carrier. On the flip side of this increased availability, everyone will need to sign on to SOME plan, otherwise the savings we're trying to achieve won't happen. Subsidies will be available for the poor and those who can't afford the insurance. For people who claim a government-run alternative to private insurers will put them out of business, please explain why the Post Office hasn't put UPS and FedEx out of business, then.

The result is, those who wish to pay for it, can get higher quality plans than the public option. Those who don't wish to or can't will STILL be covered, or will have to pay towards some of the additional costs that will be incurred by them being NOT covered. On the plus side, though, since everyone is now covered, costs can come down dramatically, because you don't have everyone else paying the entirety of the cost for those 47 million uninsured. Also, with increased use of preventive care, etc, we can further achieve a dramatic lowering of costs, by fixing issues while they are still small and simple, and before they require actual hospital care.

Also necessary in all this is some kind of tort reform, to discourage frivolous lawsuits, which will cut the costs of malpractice insurance. The trick here is to still allow suits in the case of actual malfeasance, negligence, or incompetence, but to cut out as much as possible what currently goes on, with doctors ordering tests that are entirely unnecessary, but are only done as a CYA in case of suits, and also costs for defending against baseless suits, etc. There has been some discussion on this already, but this is one area I'd like to see more done with. I do not like the idea of simply making the loser of a lawsuit pay for the whole thing, as someone could have a legitimate complaint, but still lose the case, and a double-or-nothing kind of setup like this could stop people from suing over legitimate malpractice.


None of Flink's suggestions are remotely practical, because they don't address the biggest fundamental flaw in our current system: costs generated by the uninsured. Yes, in his version of an ideal universe, a hospital WOULD turn away a mother who brought her 2 year old with a broken leg into the emergency room if she was uninsured and couldn't cover the bill for the care out of pocket, so those costs wouldn't be generated. That, however, is not even remotely the way the REAL world works. Nor do his "plans" cover the issue of people with pre-existing conditions and needing health care.

So, if you don't like the Obama plan, what WOULD you do to reform health care, given that we live in the real world and not an ideal one, and you have the facts I mentioned to deal with?

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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:17 pm

First off, it is an absurd assumption to make to say that I would be in favor of denying emergency care to anyone that needs it and can't afford it. In my ideal world, there would be church run hospitals and charities and all sorts of other things designed to help people who are unable to pay. No one would be denied care, but this wouldn't be because of a law that tells them they can't. PEOPLE would be helping PEOPLE, not government helping people by force.

The way the system is set up right now, people do get free emergency care regardless of their ability or inability to pay for it. We all admit that this is a problem because the costs that do not get paid get pushed onto everyone else. Your argument revolves around simply ensuring everyone is covered in the first place (to be required by law) to get rid of that added cost while ensuring everyone still gets the care they need.

I do not think this is the right approach. Requiring anyone by law to purchase a product or service, even health insurance, is absolutely ridiculous, regardless of whatever expected results come of it. If the main problem here is that people who are getting care at your expense are unable to afford insurance for themsleves, then again I say why not make insurance tax deductible? What benefit would come of forcing them to purchase insurance, which amounts to a tax increase as they are less free to do with their money as they please? Why not, instead, force the government to spend a little less on all the ridiculous shit it does around the world to compensate for people being able to write insurance costs off?

Why do you suggest that I not have the right to take on the risk of not carrying insurance? Why do you suggest that I should not be allowed to be responsible for myself in that regard?
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Arlos » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:43 pm

Yeah, because churches can afford the hundreds of billions of dollars they would have to spend to cover health care costs that would be necessary under your system, where we would have vastly more uninsured. Suuuuure they can. Your ideal world DOES NOT EXIST. WILL NEVER EXIST. Making policy decisions and plans based on it is impossible, and worse than that, utterly pointless. It's like planning for retirement based on assuming that you're going to win the lottery. You can wish it WOULD exist all you want, but that is singularly unhelpful at solving our REAL WORLD problems.

As for tax deductability, someone already went over that. If someone doesn't have enough money to pay for the care to BEGIN with, how does it matter whether they can deduct that cost from their taxes? Hell, people near the poverty line don't even pay much taxes as it is. The amount they would recoup by that is utterly negligible compared to the cost of care, especially if they get something expensive like cancer. So how does making care tax deductible even BEGIN to solve the problem with tens of millions of people who need care but can't afford it? Do you even think these things through at all? That's like saying the fact you can write off mortgage interest means that someone making 10 bucks an hour at Starbucks in NYC can afford to buy a condo in Manhattan. Utterly ludicrous.

And we all purchase into it because it benefits us all. The same way as well all pay money in our taxes that improve roads and provide new bulbs for street lamps, or to help run parks you don't go to. Because everyone in society is interdependent upon each other, and by sharing the load we improve everyone's life.

Then again, you don't care about anyone else, or the fabric of society, do you? Hell, you compared Jury Duty (the duty counterpart we all share to provide for our system of justice) to forced labor or concentration camps. That was easily as ludicrous as your positions on this issue, but I suppose means we shouldn't be surprised.

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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby KaiineTN » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:34 pm

Arlos, so requiring someone near poverty to purchase insurance or be fined (or forced into a public option?) is going to help them more than if they were free to choose whether to purchase it or not, and if they did, write it off?

So you are of the opinion that everyone in any given society has a responsibility to share the load (give up their property) for the betterment of that particular society, as determined by whoever is in charge at the time? You are saying that a member of a society doesn't have the right to be selfish with their property? That whoever is in charge can come in, take and redistribute as they wish? That individual rights are less important than the well being of the whole? That is just plain something we must agree to disagree on.
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Re: Required purchase of health insurance?

Postby Zanchief » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:42 pm

KaiineTN wrote:So you are of the opinion that everyone in any given society has a responsibility to share the load (give up their property) for the betterment of that particular society, as determined by whoever is in charge at the time?


Flink, if you don't you're straight up advocating anarchy.
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