Massachusetts elected a republican to the senate? Holy shit.

[Harrison]

Apocalypse inc

[Haylo]

The thing that I have a problem with is reactionary angry voting. So something like 80% of people in MA don't agree with 90% of Brown's platform but they elected him to stop the health care bill. Never mind that he is against everything else they agree with. How does that make sense? Honestly that's my theory as to way GWB got a second term. The (R) party was smart enough to get hot button items on the ticket in certain states and people ie dumbass sheep were so worried about those 1 or 2 issues that they voted specifically for that.

Overall though, I hate our entire political system.

[Harrison]

Personally, seeing all of the RAGE on FB from my liberal age group, fills my stomach with delight.

[Haylo]

I voted for Obama; I don't think he's doing a good job atm but i'm honest and I don't think ANYONE would be doing a good job right now. The truth is that bad shit was coming whether or not the winner in '08 was a Dem or a Rep. When I was going over it with my family my opinion was that the Dems should have put up a shit candidate and let the Reps clean up the mess that we're in. Obama won't make any progress in his term, stuff won't get better. But the flip to that is that the Reps are likely to make huge gains in the Congress and when they take power in '12; we're going to be up a creek on social issues and all the focus will be back on silly shite. I'm tired of all the frothing at the mouth over same sex marriage, abortion rights and health care. There are bigger issues facing us and if we don't get our heads out of our asses, we are going to be in some serious trouble. In the end it doesn't matter if Steve and Stan get married; how does it effect anyone other than the couple. It doesn't matter if people fight abortion rights till their blue in the face, somewhere the people that want to get em are going to. The health care debate makes no sense to me, people need to be able to see a doctor without going into debt for the rest of their lives; make it so and move on. Focus on the things that are going to matter in the long term. Everyone in Washington is way to focused on their own little shit causes to really care about how this country as a whole is turning out. It's time for some sort of overhaul of them all.

[Diekan]

The Health Care bill is bullshit. Think about it for a moment. Mass is one of the most liberal (if not THE most liberal) state in the union. If THEY are wanting to stop this debacle from being passed... what does that tell you?

Americans have lost their sense of self-sufficiency. We've become a country of entitlists expecting everything to be handed to us for no other reason than we have been brainwashed into believing we "deserve" it. Hell, the very meaning of freedom is lost on most American's. The majority of you think freedom is being able to decide what to eat for dinner or watch on TV. You have no idea that the true benefit of freedom is being able to succeed without hindrance (so long as you aren't hurting someone else in the process), to be able to roll the dice and take chances without the imposition of government - but with that comes the freedom to fail and suffer the consequences of that failure. THAT is what freedom is. The ability to invest your life's savings in your dream and making a go of success without the government mandating how you do it, or tax you in oblivion.

Do you really think this health care bill is about the people? Do you REALLY think these out of touch politicians really give a fuck about you? Your health? Your children's health? Absolutely not. It's about POWER, power and control over your life, period. And if you don't see that, you're blind or completely ignorant to their true motives.

The US government can force you out of your home and take your property - under Emanate Domain.
They can seize your bank accounts, garnish your wages / salary, take your belongs - under laws giving power to the IRS. All it takes is a mistake in paperwork and your life is destroyed.
They can kick in your door and haul your ass off WITHOUT due process - all under the name of the Patriot Act.

Now... they want control over your health care.

Neither party gives a fuck about the American people - what they want, what they both want is POWER and CONTROL. The American people have gotten so lazy and pathetic that they'll gladly give up their personal freedoms for a free hand out. What's more sad, is that the average American is far too stupid too see what's going on right under their collective nose.

Is the current health care system broken? Yep, it sure is, without question.

We have BILLIONS of dollars a year being spent on end of life care. Doctors ordering unnecessary tests and treatments for someone in their late 90's to extend their life for what... a day? Two days? A few hours? I don't care if it sounds cold at all - but the truth is... look if you're 98 years old and are on your last leg... I'm sorry, but there is NO reason to spend tons of money to keep you alive for a few more hours or a couple of days.

We have hundreds of millions of dollars being wasted by doctors who are abusing the system by scratching their buddies backs. You know what I'm talking about. Something happens to you, you KNOW what it is before you even go to the doctor. You sit in his office and he CONFIRMS that your self-diagnosis is in fact correct. But, rather than just writing you a script and sending you on your way... he/she has to send you to a specialist to get a second verification - so your insurance company not only has to foot the bill for one doctor, but now has to foot the bill for the specialist. Wasted money through medical abuse. The doctors counter this accusation with fear of being sued if they make a misdiagnosis. But, that's pure bullshit. We're not talking about them sending you off for a second opinion on something as serious as say... a heart condition or a potential cancer. They do this with damn near EVERY diagnosis - rashes and so on.

Add the billions of dollars being wasted on unnecessary work ups and exams. You go to the doctor for a rash and he/she orders a slew of tests that have nothing really to do with the diagnosis - but the insurance company has no choice but to pay.

Now, lets add the billions upon billions being wasted on ER visits. People using the ER as a doctor's office with NO intention of paying the bill. No, they'd rather squander whatever money they have on Xbox 360s, cell phones and everything else they have no business owning. And you know it happens - more often than not.

Last I read... now where in the Constitution is there a right to health care. We are NOT entitled to it. It is something we have to provide for ourselves. Are the costs too high? Sure, but we can deal with that issue without allowing the bloated, inefficient and often incompetent government taking total control and fucking it up 10 times more than it already is. Do you really want the next George Bush (history repeats itself, so you rest assured we'll have another baboon like Bush in office again) being in charge of YOUR health?

[Harrison]

I really don't understand what everyone's fucking obsession is with trying to allow the government to dictate what adults can and can't do.

It disgusts me.

[Diekan]

It's because people have become lazy. All they want to do is eat, go on vacation and watch TV. They want everything handed to them - they don't want to have to "think" or to "do" anything.

[KaiineTN]

A lot of people out there genuinely believe the world would be a better place if everyone else did things their way, and because of that belief, they are blind to the notion of individualism and abuse government power as a means of realization. They don't have a clue what they are destroying in the process.

"The world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right for some."

[Arlos]

What TRULY sickens me with the US health care system is that our insurance companies are for-profit enterprises. That means they will ALWAYS put their profits and bottom line ahead of the lives and health of those to whom they sell premiums. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want someone to base their decision on whether or not I live or die on whether or not they will make their bonus numbers for that quarter. Not to mention, for-profit health insurance companies have *HUGE* overheads compared to other systems. Hell, private health insurance firms run at a 20-30% overhead. Medicare runs at a 3%. Kinda shoots a hole in the "government is always inefficient" trope when the government-run program has 1/10 the waste of private firms, eh?

As to Diekan's argument... Well, I think it's paranoid bullshit, to be honest. The idea that there's some governmental conspiracy ot turn people into sheep and control every aspect of their lives is nonsense up there with people who doubt the moon landings. Yes, politicians certainly do take advantage of the fact that people are lazy and apathetic to get themselves elected and not infrequently to line their own pockets. But a vast governmental conspiracy to reduce us all to virtual slavery? Idiocy.

We *NEED* reforms to health care in this country. Desperately. Someone recently noted statistics that show that the uninsured in this country have a mortality rate the same as the poor in Dickens-era London! How is that acceptable? Do you have any idea how much costs would drop if people COULD go to normal doctor visits instead of having to wait and go to the emergency room? Is everyone somehow fine with people dying and suffering in droves, just because they're poor or work in a job that doesn't have health benefits?

Now, I'm not a huge fan of the current health care bill, but claiming that it puts the government in control of health care is utter nonsense. There's not even a publicly run non-profit option in there any more. (the much debated "public option"). So please, tell me how, exactly, that the current bill lets the government decide whether or not you get care? (and if you quote "Death Panels" at me, I am going to laugh you into next week)

As I think everyone knows, I'd much prefer they'd gone with a single-payer system (ie, Medicare For Everyone), but unfortunately that wasn't going to happen. As it is though, I think there's enough improvements in the bill (removing "pre-existing conditions" as a clause, eliminating lifetime caps, subsidies for people who can't afford it, etc.) that I'm willing to hold my nose at the things I DON'T like much (like letting them charge older people literally 3x the rates of the young, etc) and support it, at least in a lukewarm fashion.

Oh yeah, the "constitutional" argument, and where does health care fall? How about the right to Life, hmmm?

-Arlos

[Nusk]

i think brown was elected because he ran a great campain versus her running a shitty one

while he glad handed and talked to everyone he met and is very charismatic she on the other hand doesnt like to shake hands and of course there was the event where she wouldnt help a guy get up off the ground that her people knocked over.

oh and of course in the most liberal state in the union women dont get elected to office very often

[Zanchief]

As to Diekan's argument... Well, I think it's paranoid bullshit, to be honest. The idea that there's some governmental conspiracy ot turn people into sheep and control every aspect of their lives is nonsense up there with people who doubt the moon landings. Yes, politicians certainly do take advantage of the fact that people are lazy and apathetic to get themselves elected and not infrequently to line their own pockets. But a vast governmental conspiracy to reduce us all to virtual slavery? Idiocy.

Well said my friend. It's complete illogical hysteria that seems to be getting people to run over to fringe lunatic parties like Libertarianism. This notion that the government is out to steal your life or steal your money so they can control as much power as they can is hilarious. What is their gain? Civil servants live in the same country as you do. There isn’t some big looming tower where are all the government workers live where they can just create a moat and laugh at all the stupid people paying income tax. It’s fucking crazy.

Obviously Health Care is the right thing to do. Going forward with it is the right thing to do. Every time the US tries to move forwards they have to do so with the right kicking and screaming and eventually it will happen and all those ungrateful Ayn Rand nutters will be better off. Progress is constantly thwarted by morons like Sarah Palin who don’t know anything about anything but she likes Jesus and hates the government so she must know what she’s talking about!

What really disgusts me is how much this movement that’s based completely and fallacious and ridiculous theories has grown over the last decade. It’s possible we might see 9-11 truthers or Moon Landing Deniers voted into office. Why not? The truth is completely relative now days. Just look at Global Warming.

[KaiineTN]

[ClakarEQ]

Well I'm not shocked but so you know, Mass isn't as liberal as you think or thought. Reps would typically get 40+% even when Kennedy was there, so to say it is / was the most liberal, um not so sure about that. Brown was elected because he had more money, better looking, better speeches, etc. Not his views. Frankly he was elected for many of the same reason Obama was so attractive.

As Arlos said, our health care system should never be a for profit business, that is probably the biggest failing in our country. Don't get me started on what we're doing to other countries because of our lust for money (look into what we / our private sector is doing re: mental illness, in say China and Korea right now, talk about sickening).

Diekan, do you feel you should pave your own roads, build our own schools, buy enough hamsters to power that computer your using. Do you actually believe you've got hi-speed internet at the price you've got it because of the private sector? I mean seriously folks that post about how the GOV is taking over adults lives and all that shit, but then fail to recognize all that they do offer you and that you just suck the tit like me but are too blinded by your own thoughts to see it.

Kaiine what about the abuse from the commercial and private sector? Why do you and others complain about all these GOV abuses but you never say shit about what these companies are doing, here and all over the globe?

I'm not saying GOV is perfect, far from it, but where would you rather live? I'd bet not one US person on these boards would leave because of health care, outlawing of guns, or any fear mongering BS any party can come up with. You may not like, but you know when push comes to shove, THIS is where you'd want to live till the end, your last breath.

I'm a white collar guy, I make good money, I don't have a college degree, I've fought hard for all that I have, yet I'm also willing to give up "my hard earned cash" to help a fellow man. Even though there is a percentage of "trash" that pray's on me and people like me. I'm ok with that because I know for any one of those, there are 2 that aren't trash.

While the health care thing may go down in flames, or not, doesn't really matter, I didn't really care for the plan anyway but felt some change was better than nothing. So I'll look forward to another increase in my health care costs for a family that never goes to the Dr. I'm paying something like 700.00 a month for my family of 4, a good bit of that is also Medicare, but the deal is, a large percentage of my cash is going to "medical" for profit companies.

Look, I'm not trying to flame or get flamed and I'm not trying to start shit and I'm not an all knowing guy re: health care and GOV, but I do know I've personally seen my healthcare costs go up, my out of pocket go up, yet my coverage stays the same or goes down. Something is broken and no solution will make everyone happy, that shouldn't be the reason to not fix it.

/ramble off

[KaiineTN]

It really irks me when I hear people say that healthcare shouldn't be for profit. Where do you think we'd be today in terms of medical technology without the profit motive driving innovation? Who are you to deny an inventor the right to profit from their work?

Sure, there are plenty of researchers out there that would be more than willing to freely share their discoveries with the world (and plenty that do), but to deny someone the right to seek a profit is wrong, and anyone should be able to see that.

Say I want to start an insurance company and offer health insurance, and I do so at a profit. That automatically makes me a bad guy? What if I offer a higher quality and a lower price than others? Am I still a bad guy? What if I deny you coverage because you're too much of a risk to insure? Hey, you might not like me, but you have no right whatsoever to force me to do business with you.

Newsflash. Private businesses, particularly those in the health care industry, have been using government to establish advantages for decades. These advantages allow them to bypass market forces that would normally force them to compete fairly and keep their quality as high as possible and their prices as low as possible. The health insurance market is not competitive because they have used the government to take the competition factor out. They are IN the government. They have an influential seat at the table for any proposal that comes out of the government. Instead of attacking the corruption/abuse within the government and removing the restrictions and regulations that impair proper competition in the market, you just want the government to take over and provide equality for all?

Imagine how the dynamics would change if we allowed people working for businesses that offer health insurance to opt to take the 5 or 10 thousand dollars that would go towards paying for it, tax free, and shop around for their own insurance plan, on top of restoring true capitalistic competition to the market.

Oh, what a terrible idea! Allowing people more control and choices! Surely just having the government come in and provide it equally for everyone is the right answer and not the easy one. Surely I, being a healthy young man, should pay as much for health insurance as an obese man who has smoked 2 packs a day for 30 years with lung cancer.

[ClakarEQ]

EDIT

fuck it

It's just not worth it.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink

[Zanchief]

If no one could make money everyone would just suddenly get stupid and lazy. Why would anyone try and work hard and help people is it isn't for financial gain? Maybe because it's something they believe in?

I'm sure if you took profit away from medical science there would be just as much, if not more, research and innovation. Profit just makes it so people want to sell something. Why cure a disease when you can have people hooked on pills? You need to step away from this line of thinking that everything will be better in a free market. This is 100% false. You also have to realize that the government is not an evil bunch of people trying to steal your money. Their just people trying to help you, even though you don't know you need them.

Your video is hysterically stupid. The government just places themselves in the market place and forces everyone else out with regulations so they can make a profit? For what gain? The government is a group of 100,000 random people. It gains nothing from stealing money and creating government subsidies monopolies. You need to unplug yourself from all this Ron Paul junk. He’s a moron.

[Harrison]

Ugh...I agree with Zanchief, and to a degree Kaiine too.

It's not to either extreme. Profits do drive innovation but, to say there would be none without it is ludicrous.

[ClakarEQ]

Ok, I can't help myself.

I wouldn't say that profits drive innovation, but PEOPLE do. Regardless, profits are all nice and good but the problem is they can and historically do stifle innovation (that is, I think, to Zan's point) and to what I think Harri is saying, profits certainly help because with nothing it's difficult to make something.

[brinstar]

1. wouldn't be a flink argument without a youtube link, would it?

2. a buddy from boston posted on his facebook last night (i'm paraphrasing): while i'm not happy with the results of this election, at least now all the out-of-state special interest groups will go home and quit calling me ten times a day

[Drem]

I think it's pretty important that a country's citizens be healthy. I don't think healthcare should be a business.

don't we have more interesting things to do than drive people into bankruptcy over staying alive and well?

[KaiineTN]

I think it's pretty important that a country's citizens be healthy. I don't think healthcare should be in the hands of the government.

[Harrison]

Who gives a fuck whose hand it is in...as long as it's somewhere. Half the time it is nowhere, now.

[Harrison]

P.S. I feel like a dirty hippie for saying that, but owell.

[Arlos]

I don't think healthcare should be in the hands of the government.

Oh, so you like it as it is now, where who gets health care is decided based on whether or not Joe Middle Manager wants to make an extra $500 bonus that quarter, regardless of who lives, dies, or suffers? That's somehow superior to a government run system where EVERYONE can get care?

Lets see, on the one hand, no government, but lots of people stay sick and frequently die due to no care. On the other hand, the government pays for our health insurance, and everyone who needs to can see a doctor. Oh, but wait, the government is involved, I pick letting people die over profit margins! Yeah, that's SO much better!

idiocy.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

I think it's pretty important that a country's citizens be healthy. I don't think healthcare should be in the hands of the government.

You only think that because you have an irrational fear of the government based on your man-crush on Ron Paul. If you had a sensible and logical view of the world you wouldn't have that problem and all would be fine.