Teabaggers Mock Old Man

[Ginzburgh]

Seriously what the fuck is wrong with people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8

[Arlos]

How about Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and the rest of the right-wing attack/smear machine insulting an 11 year old boy, after he spoke at a rally asking to please pass health care reform, because his mom died from heart disease because she didn't have any insurance.

How low can you get, attacking an 11 year old who lost his mother to a bad heart?

-Arlos

[10sun]

Seriously what the fuck is wrong with people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8

That happened literally 1 mile away from my apartment.

Best part is?

The congresswoman whose office they were protesting in front of? Well, she wasn't there and nobody else from her office was either.

[KaiineTN]

How low can you get, using an 11 year old boy to gain emotional support for something that is a threat to the liberty of all individuals?

Not that that justifies attacking said 11 year old, but you get the point.

[Arlos]

Who used him? This is something HE believes in, not exactly surprising given that his MOTHER DIED. HE wrote his statement, not some George Soros speechwriter. Are you denying the right of individuals to step up and give their own opinion, even if they're young? Awful hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

Besides, if you disagree with the message, attack THAT. What POSSIBLE need is there for ad hominem attacks on an 11 year old? Or does he threaten you because he puts a face to the necessity for reform, by tying it to a personal tragedy? One, I might add, which is all too common? I once again point you to the statistic that shows that the uninsured in this country have roughly the SAME mortality rate that the poor did in DICKENSIAN ENGLAND 150 years ago.

Besides, how is this a "threat to the liberty of all individuals"? That is utter bunk and nonsense. Sheer fearmongering, without the basest shred of fact on which to hand your assertion. Conspiracy theory at its worst. Here, I am sure this will help you against this and other nefarious plots! http://zapatopi.net/afdb/ Read it and be safe!

-Arlos

PS. At least you didn't try and claim that it shouldn't be done because of the cost. Then I'd REALLY have to laugh at you, given that the CBO estimate was that the plan would LOWER the deficit by about 1.5 TRILLION dollars over the next 20 years. Kinda ironic seeing all the republicans slamming it over cost, considering how they all voted in lockstep for Bush's 2001 tax cuts, when the same CBO predicted that those cuts would INCREASE the deficit by 1.3 Trillion. Mighty champions of cost containment they, eh? Hypocritical asshats.

[KaiineTN]

You don't think forcing someone to purchase insurance is an assault on that person's liberty? You think that's fear mongering?

What is wrong with allowing people to opt out of government programs? Why must it be all or none?

And since you mentioned cost...

A new analysis by the Joint Economic Committee and the House Ways & Means Committee minority staff estimates up to 16,500 new IRS personnel will be needed to collect, examine and audit new tax information mandated on families and small businesses in the ‘reconciliation' bill being taken up by the U.S. House of Representatives this weekend.

Scores of new federal mandates and fifteen different tax increases totaling $400 billion are imposed under the Democratic House bill. In addition to more complicated tax returns, families and small businesses will be forced to reveal further tax information to the IRS, provide proof of ‘government approved' health care and submit detailed sales information to comply with new excise taxes.

[Jay]

Fuck health care reform. The little boy should have just posted on NT asking for the best angle he could spin to sue his moms doctor. That would have paid for her surgery and some rims.

[Arlos]

Oh yes, because other countries with universal health care like Switzerland and Canada are noted bastions of tyranny and oppression, right? Both well noted for their brutal oppression of their citizens, and jack-booted thugs crushing down all hints of liberty, amirite?

You know what the biggest of the new taxes is? A tax on medicare recipients that earn more than 200k or 250k a year from INVESTMENT income. Not salary, not bonuses, not anything they're working for, but money they're not having to lift a finger to receive because they're already rich. OH NO, CRY ME A RIVER OVER THE OPPRESSION OF THE RICH PEOPLE! As for costs, just go look at the CBO, who are a completely non-partisan operation. THEY'RE the ones who showed how much it will reduce the deficit, not one of the political parties.

And you can't opt out any more than I can opt out of having my money go to the defense department, or to have supported torturing prisoners at Gitmo or black prisons around the world. For most of the population that already has health insurance, nothing in their day to day lives is going to change, except for the better. i.e., insurance companies can't jack up their rates for no reason, they can't have their policy canceled if they get sick, and they won't have any yearly or lifetime caps on what gets paid out if they get SERIOUSLY ill. They still see their same doctors, period. It just stops allowing middle managers at insurance companies getting to decide who lives and who dies based on wanting to get a bigger bonus this quarter. Gee, sounds SO awful. Really. Damn, yeah, RAIL AGAINST THE MAN, MAN!

Calling it an assault on liberty and freedom is sheerest demagoguery. It has no basis in fact or truth, any more than did the idiotic notion of "Death Panels".

-Arlos

[Drem]

well kaiine is a hypocritical retard so it's not hard to imagine a program that spends 1% more per year yet covers 20 to 30 million more people would make him scared.

I mean he obviously buys into right-wing scare words like "socialist" and "liberty" and starts posting a bunch of self-absorbed crap about it while sadly yet predictably ignoring the topic in the thread about his girlfriend where he's a hypocrite so why are you shocked or curious about why he supports fearmongers and political dummies?

he'll never be able to give you a real reason because the right-wing has nothing valid to fight about. it's all about individual gain and shitting on everyone that's less fortunate. and they throw in words like "patriotism" and "freedom" to sound right. despicable imo

kaiine you should really watch OutFoxed

[KaiineTN]

I never indicated anything in the post about my friend's health issue that suggested that the government should foot the bill. I certainly do believe that those proven responsible are held accountable, however, and if it can be proven that the chiropractor is responsible for her condition, all her medical expenses should be paid by them. I fail to see any hypocrisy. I ignored it in that thread precisely because I did not want it to devolve into a stupid debate like this.

You're right Drem, I'm anti-socialist and pro-liberty, and those on the right do throw those words around a lot. Are they really just scare words though? Do you really think they don't mean anything, they don't represent valid ideals?

If I was in this for individual gain, wouldn't I be in favor of universal healthcare? I mean, I haven't had any health insurance for 7 years now. Clearly it would benefit me to have that accessible, and as everyone seems eagar to assume I'm unemployed, that even gives me more of a reason to want it. You're retarded if you think anything I say is about personal gain at anyone else's expense. Then again, you are Drem...

[Reynaldo]

I'm all for universal health care so long as I don't have to contribute to it if I choose to go with a privately owned company =D

[Drem]

Are they really just scare words though? Do you really think they don't mean anything, they don't represent valid ideals?

do you really think anyone on the left doesn't think they're "valid ideals" ? maybe we just don't cry wolf and talk about it all the time. we don't give it that stupid partisan spin to make the other side look "un-patriotic"

and sorry for the jab at your thread but the only point you seem to be able to muster is one of incredible greed. about how you don't think you need to pay for anyone else. when i'm pretty sure lots of people have paid for you.... for the roads you drive on, the buildings you use on a daily basis, the funding for whatever college you go to, etc. etc. and those people probably weren't even forced into it (except roads maybe?). they just did it because they're nice. and then everyone enjoys their public park, or whatever they donated or funded, for generations and generations.

it's just so childish and stupid for me to think that the people around me don't deserve to be healthy. and i know since taxes are pulled from my paycheck and i always claim 0 on my tax forms and let them take it all without me really caring anyways, i don't mind an extra buck or five going toward my community being healthier. i just think it's self-absorbed and silly to not share that feeling. but maybe i actually care about the people around me, which seems to not be the cool thing to do anymore

and it's also industry-related. i'm part of an industry with typically low wages and rare, usually overpriced health insurance for people that make it to management (if they're lucky) coupled with back-breaking slave labor. the company i work for now caters numerous premier and luxury events around town for the and the owner is making so much money it's retarded, but he refuses to offer us health insurance

our only option to use a private company with outrageous rates that often drop coverage when you actually get sick. it's totally fucked and there's just no other way about it. my mother is a charge nurse at one of the biggest, most state-of-the-art hospitals in the country now, and even when i go to cater the brain trust or think tank or whatever you want to call it of eight 80yo women, all anyone ever has to say about reform is that it needs to happen

the ONLY people talking about how it's a bad idea are the people that have nothing to do with medicine and know nothing about the way it works and how many people are completely screwed over on a daily basis by our ass-backwards medical system

and that's why i ream you for recycling a bunch of right-wing trash about why healthcare reform is a bad thing.... because all of their opinions are a result of their best personal interests and are extremely uneducated. they do not have their fingers on society's pulse

there's absolutely nothing wrong with public healthcare. considering we already have it anyways for old people, amongst other socialised programs, if you weren't scared about your money, you'd realise that the best thing for any country is to have healthy citizens. if you can't fundamentally understand why that's critical then i don't think i can debate with you anymore on the topic

[KaiineTN]

For the record, I would have 0 problem with government run health care programs if they were at the State level. It is only when the Federal government comes in and imposes one en masse that I feel compelled to speak out against it.

Having healthy citizens is important, I just don't think it is the job of the government to ensure that. It is, above all else, the job of the individual. If an individual finds themself in a position where they are unable to take care of themselves, then they should have places to go for help, but not the anonymous public money troth.

Again, if this was done on a State by State basis, where some choose different systems than others, and yet others can choose to not have any, I'd have no issue. This might in fact end up being the case though with how many States have passed or are currently considering legislation to override many aspects of this bill, including the insurance mandate.

[leah]

If I was in this for individual gain, wouldn't I be in favor of universal healthcare? I mean, I haven't had any health insurance for 7 years now. Clearly it would benefit me to have that accessible, and as everyone seems eagar to assume I'm unemployed, that even gives me more of a reason to want it.

argh it drives me crazy that you won't just come right out and say what you do or don't do for a living ;\

i also think it's silly to brag that you haven't had health insurance for seven years. what does that prove? only that you're lucky you haven't needed it. if you got in a mondo car accident or were stricken by cancer or got mauled by a bear, you'd be fucked and would have to rely on government money. i guess i just don't get why "well i don't have health insurance and i'm fine" is a valid point in your argument.

[KaiineTN]

I only brought up me not having insurance to counter Drem's assumption that I'm against government run health care for personal gain. Hardly bragging. It proves that I don't want, need, or expect the government to provide things like that for me. I don't believe I should be forced into it because you want it.

I have plenty of health related issues that I probably should get checked out, but it is too expensive. It's not worth it. I don't care. If I die young, so be it. Shit happens. I take the risk and accept the consequences. If I found out I had cancer, I wouldn't sit around in a hospital hoping they could extend my life and have the taxpayer pay the bill, I'd hop in my car and take a road trip and meet a bunch of you guys before I croak. Don't assume I would compromise on my principles as soon as I find myself in a bad situation. For all you know I've found myself in many and gotten through them just fine.

There are better ways to help those in need than using the heavy hand of Federal government.

But regardless, I'm confident that this bill will pass, so be happy. That's what you want, right? Or maybe you'll admit too that this bill is not the reform anyone wants and is simply the result of months of deal making in order to secure the votes necessary to pass it. Let's see if you guys are still defending this in 1, 5, 10 years. Then again, I'm sure the problems that come up as a result of this bill will be blamed on capitalism, free markets, and lack of regulation, and will be used as an excuse for even greater government interference. The government will take zero responsibility, that's what they're best at. They think of themselves as problem solvers, not problem creators, no matter what happens under their watch.

[Tikker]

Do you also not save money for down the road? Just because you don't need it right now is a dumb fucking attitude

[Gidan]

While, I would never wish it on you; I am still waiting for the day you break a bone or have some medical issue that requires medical care. When that day comes, what do you plan to do? Are you going to just head home and deal with the pain? Are you going to go to a hospital and have us foot the bill for you? Who do you think pays for all those medical treatments? We do. The people who actually are responsible and pay for medical insurance pay for it. Why should be pay higher rates just so people like you can get a free ride. Whats worse is you know damn well, that if you really need medical help, you can simply go to a hospital and get it. I wonder if your stance on this would be so firm if you know you would be refused medical assistance of any kind if you actually needed it. But alas, you will ignore this because you cant defend your position.

One of the problems we have right now in general is that their are many doctors who truly believe in the oath they have taken and will care for people regardless of the situation. I bet if all hospitals refused care to anyone who was not insured, those uninsured would be up in arms about not being able to get medical care. Of course its these same people who are pissed at the idea of being forced into medial insurance. They all just seem to believe that while they have the right to medical treatment at the expense of others, but no one else does.

Again, if this was done on a State by State basis, where some choose different systems than others, and yet others can choose to not have any, I'd have no issue. This might in fact end up being the case though with how many States have passed or are currently considering legislation to override many aspects of this bill, including the insurance mandate.

This in itself I find hilarious. Of course you would have no issues, because its exactly what you have now. Nothing would change for you, nothing would change for us. You and the people just like you would opt out but still expect the same medical care as everyone else. You would still get that medical care at no cost to yourself. Since the overall costs would be the same, the gov't would need to collect the same amount of cash regardless of the number of people choosing not to pay for it. So to make up for your "liberty", we will simply have to pick up the tab for you. In the end, you have exactly what you have now. Responsible people paying ridicules rates just so you can get a free ride.

[10sun]

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/lo ... t=&sid=101

Zzz, turns out the asshole lives near me too.

[brinstar]

what a fucking douche

[Yamori]

One of my beefs is that this thing is forcing people to buy private insurance. There's a considerable ethical difference between tax collection for universal government funded care and forcing people to be perpetually indebted to private companies with substantial profit margins. I really don't know what to think of the whole healthcare issue since it's such a fucked up and convoluted system with so many different problems contributing to it, but I can understand people's objections to being forced to pay into private companies that are well known to be completely unethical and abusive.

[Yamori]

Also, fuck them teabaggers. They are just utter rabble

[Arlos]

Now, that objection makes sense to me. I would have MUCH MUCH MUCH preferred the US go to a single-payer system similar to Canada or much of Europe. It's even easy to market: "Medicare for Everyone". Unfortunately, given the political climate and the $$$ pumped into campaigns by the insurance lobby, that was never going to fly.

I'm not exactly enthralled with having to give money to for-profit entities either, especially given how many of them behave, but unfortunately, making sure there's a large pool of healthy people in the system is the only way that costs can be held down. Even a single payer system funded off taxes depends on that. As a result, without that mandate forcing everyone to get insurance, there'd be no cost containment.

On the plus side, a lot of the provisions in the bill stop a bunch of the truly shady crap the insurance companies were doing, so it's less of a concern. I mean, no more canceling you just because you get sick, no jacking up rates through the roof for no reason, no denying you for pre-existing conditions, no more yearly or lifetime caps, etc. The other big one is that they must spend at least 85% of all money they take in on actual health care. If they don't, they have to refund the difference. Now, they've already been caught saying they're going to try and change certain things that are overhead (management costs, etc) and declare them "heathcare costs" so as to fit into that 85%, but hopefully reasonably watchful oversight will help prevent as much of that as possible.

-Arlos

[Ginzburgh]

Aren't you afraid our health care system will suck in 30 years from now? Why would someone go to medical school for 10 years when they are going to make a lot less money than if they spent that 10 years going into another field? Every doctor I have talked to about this is against the Health Care bill. Not because they will personally make less money, they are already well off, they are afraid of what this can potentially do to their field. And it's not about greed. It's about what they are worth because of the job they perform and the investment made to learn that job.

Also, I agree with the provisions you talked about above. I think it's great that they can no longer cancel someone who just found out they have cancer because the person didn't disclose the fact that they had acne when then were 12. But i'm still on the fence. Should we have just left it at regulating private insurance companies instead of creating a full blown government run health care system? Obviously Arlos, if you want to go to a single payer option, I already know your answer. Time will tell i guess.

[Arlos]

I have actually heard the opposite, that overall, more doctors support the bill than don't.

Also, has the UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada or anywhere else in the western world with even tighter government controls on health care run out of doctors? Hardly. People who are just looking for the money don't tend to become doctors anyway, since it's much more work to get to be a doctor than it is to get to be, say, a commodities broker or investment banker. Most people who go into medicine do it because they genuinely want to help sick people.

So, I am actually not at all concerned about not enough people going into medicine as a field. In any case, it isn't doctor's salaries that were sending costs spiraling out of control anyway. So, there will still be plenty of flexibility to make sure they're still paid and paid well.

-Arlos