RNC ffs

[ClakarEQ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38062497/ns/politics/
WTF seriously, how can someone in that postion be so completely out of touch with history and current events to not know who put us there.

[KaiineTN]

/opinion on

I don't like Steele. He's the result of Republicans saying: "hey look we have a black guy too"

Obama has made Afghanistan his war, and despite being perceived as the anti-war candidate, he's just as bad as Bush when it comes to foreign policy (not that McCain would have been better, though).

We shouldn't be there, or in Iraq. Or Korea, Japan, Germany, Israel, etc. for that matter. So many wasted lives, so much wasted money.

In conclusion, fuck Michael Steele and most other Republicans and Democrats in Washington.

/opinion off

[Drem]

"There are, of course, those who think we should pull out of Afghanistan, and they're certainly entitled to make their case," wrote Kristol, a consistent supporter of the Afghanistan war. "But one of them shouldn't be the chairman of the Republican Party."

this particular quote is disturbing. i don't think what that guy said was a mistake or a problem. in fact i'm sure all he meant was that obama chose to keep the war going instead of pulling out. and he said obama because obama's the president right now (and i sorta remember him saying something about pulling the troops out a long, long time ago)

you'd have to be a retard to think anyone wouldn't know why we were there in the first place and you'd have to be an even bigger tard (like these journalists) to try and make a big stink about that, then print some war-mongering bullshit right below it like it's no big deal. like republicans aren't republicans unless they're killing colored people in a 3rd world country

people nowadays have this incredible tendency to nitpick and point out the smallest mistakes, even if they're only mistakes because they're being grossly misinterpreted. what if we put more effort into reporting about how twisted and scary and horrible people are these days. and how they can make a mountain out of a molehole while in the background they're facilitating a war. it's fucking crazy to me. it's sad and it's crazy

[Tikker]

We shouldn't be there..... Or ... Japan, Germany,... for that matter. So many wasted lives, so much wasted money.

are you seriously that stupid? or just trying to illicit some flames?

[KaiineTN]

Neither?

[Tikker]

Why do you think you should have given Germany and japan a pass?

[Arlos]

I think he means we shouldn't have troops there NOW, not that we shouldn't have fought the 2nd world war.

-Arlos

[Kaemon]

How many lives have we lost in Germany and Japan post WW2?

Tikker is right, the comment is moronic.

I'm not a fan of President Obama but the man has always stated since he's been running for President that we should be putting more focus in Afghanistan and not in Iraq. The President was correct, the reason we went into Afghanistan was because of 9/11. Al-Qaeda was the reason we went into Afghanistan since the ruling regime at the time (Taliban) refused to give up their whereabouts.

Afghanistan should have always been our primary focus, not Iraq. This could have all been over by now if we just stayed true to the cause instead of former President Bush using the crisis as an opportunity to push a broader agenda.

I hate to say this, and it might sound moronic to most of you, but Iraq kept Iran at bay. Removing one evil probably opened the door of opportunity to a bigger evil.

Edit: Oh, and Steele has to go, he's a fucking embarrassment to the party.

[KaiineTN]

So you're saying since we haven't lost any lives, that justifies maintaining bases in countries like Japan and Germany at the expense of taxpayers in an era that demands massive spending cuts, when the only two sources of spending of any significance are the military and entitlements? Of those two, which would you rather cut first?

I just see maintaining bases in something like 140+ countries entirely unnecessary, wasteful, and questionable on ethical grounds in many cases. Would you want China to establish a military base in your State? I just want to see our imperialism end before we implode from the weight of maintaining it.

[Tikker]

I think if we've all learned anything it's that whatever side flink is on that's the wrong side


Seriously tho, you have such a short sighted view of everything. You knee-jerk react to stuff without thinking it thru

[KaiineTN]

I assure you I have both read and thought extensively about foreign policy, our actions abroad, blowback, how the rest of the world views us, how to appropriately respond to threats, when force is necessary, and how to engage when we must.

[Ganzo]

Afghanistan should have always been our primary focus, not Iraq.

Keeping our troops there 9 years after the attack is ridiculous. This is now a huge money drain for our country, not to mention lives of our soldiers. Just look at what happened to Great Britain and Soviet Union; Afghanistan is like a cancer that destroys empires.

[Reynaldo]

take off and nuke it from orbit.


...only way to be sure!

[Kaemon]

Afghanistan should have always been our primary focus, not Iraq.

Keeping our troops there 9 years after the attack is ridiculous. This is now a huge money drain for our country, not to mention lives of our soldiers. Just look at what happened to Great Britain and Soviet Union; Afghanistan is like a cancer that destroys empires.

Don't take my quote out of context, You're absolutely right it's a fucking money drain, but thats what happens when you split your forces and fight 2 fronts for 9 consecutive years. That's my point. Who's to say we would have been there for 9 years if we went in and solely focused on our main objective. Obliterate Al-Qaeda, the group responsible for the attack on WTC in '92 and then 9/11 and get out. Would there have been a Madrid train bombing in '07? Who knows. Afghanistan wasn't our problem, the terrorist group hiding out in that country was.

[Arlos]

On some of his arguments here, Flink actually has a point or two.

What IS the purpose to our having 16,000 marines in Okinawa?
Why DO we need to have massive forces sitting around doing nothing in Germany?

We spend more on defense than just about the entire rest of the world combined. Because we spend so much, all of our allies get to blow off spending much of anything on defense themselves. Well, sorry about that, but we can't afford to have the entire world's defense budget on our tab.

We're spending 10s and 100s of BILLIONS every year on stuff we don't need to spend it on, including equipment that the military doesn't even WANT. (see: C-117s, an entirely separate engine design for the F-35s, etc.) Eisenhower warned of the military-industrial complex, and they're bleeding the nation dry.

We need to make some serious choices to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Either we can trim that waste in defense we don't need to be spending, or we can completely gut social programs that are actually vitally important. (Or we can raise taxes way up again, back to Reagan era levels, where we hit 50%+ as a top end cap)

Barney Frank (big-time progressive democrat from Massachusetts) is actually working with Ron Paul on a bill to actually do something about this. Hopefully they'll get something done, as I know I'd rather us spend 100 billion on food for the hungry, health care, unemployment, medicare, etc. than on bases we don't need and equipment the military doesn't even want.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

On some of his arguments here, Flink actually has a point or two.

What IS the purpose to our having 16,000 marines in Okinawa?
Why DO we need to have massive forces sitting around doing nothing in Germany?
-Arlos

you have 16,000 in Okinawa because it's about as close to china as you can get without quite initiating WW3


with Germany tho, it's only been 20ish? years since the evil commies moved out, which was the reason the base was maintained so long


all that being said, if all Flink meant was why do you still have bases around the world?

it's cause you guys think you're right, and everyone else is wrong

[Drem]

Barney Frank (big-time progressive democrat from Massachusetts) is actually working with Ron Paul on a bill to actually do something about this. Hopefully they'll get something done, as I know I'd rather us spend 100 billion on food for the hungry, health care, unemployment, medicare, etc. than on bases we don't need and equipment the military doesn't even want.

-Arlos

recently i saw Frances Moore Lappé come to the UO for a speech. she brought up something very relevant: this started in 1993, but in Belo Horizonte, Brazil, hunger was ended by making good food a right of citizenship (much like healthcare should be). the government worked with markets to better society. they posted findings and pricings across the city, there was participatory budgeting, and this came at an approximate cost of 1 cent per day per person. all it took was people making it happen, and making farmers realise that the status of its country's citizens was more than simply "consumers". now they've moved on to Vila Viva, employing 80% of the city's unemployed to re-vamp the poorest areas of their city. their mayors over the years have won a couple awards for all this activity..... including the first Future Policy Award from Lappé's World Future Council and a World Mayor nomination in 2005

why this hasn't happened anywhere else? because everyone's greedy and naïve! even people here at the good ol' NT have stated quite plainly that they don't feel the guy next to them deserves healthcare if he didn't "earn it." and as long as we upkeep close-minded and utterly selfish viewpoints with closed-pocket, progress-hindering ideals, nothing will ever change

if you truly agree with that and think healthcare is something one must "earn", just imagine what else you could've bought with all the money that you've spent on healthcare for you or family over the years. it's unbelievable to me that anyone can justify not having free, universal healthcare and food. if you don't have a healthy populace, what the fuck have you got then?

i thought this was supposed to be a predominately Christian nation, yet I know very few people (one or two, in fact) who do more for others than they do for themselves

[Drem]

it's cause you guys think you're right, and everyone else is wrong

funny that you should say that because that's basically your attitude

(and shame on you for taking FLINK'S SIDE, Arlos, WTF!)

if you weren't a bitter Canadian you'd know that we're in both of those countries because they asked us to stay and maintain presence. as a matter of fact, any country we're still in is a result of them asking us to stay. some places, like Gitmo, were gifted to us

of course, most of these bases are manned by less than 15. so why so many in Japan/Germany? as a result of war-time occupation in Japan and the Iron Curtain in Germany. they wanted us to hang out. after Berlin fell (you were kinda right about that one point, 20 years ago) we pulled about half our troops out and foresaw conflicts in the middle-east that warranted keeping some number of troops around

good thing, too, because now, a few of the (there are still over 20 bases operating aircraft between the Army and Air Force) bases in Germany serve as main transportation and medical hubs for Iraq. we've got about 50 or 60,000 troops still there between them (we only have 180,000 in Iraq and Afghanistan combined)

in Japan, we were a big hit for many years. now it's mostly just the Navy (except Zama) and the numbers get smaller every year as they're slowly shifted home or to the DMZ in South Korea. or Thailand, or Singapore, or Guam, or the Philippines, or MALAYSIA MALAYSIA MALAYSIA, or whatever. in fact I work with someone who grew up on the base in Guam

now, while everyone likes to point their grubby fingers at China for being unruly communists, I think you're forgetting the militarily-offensive-minded North Korea. Shots are still fired across the DMZ daily by NK soldiers. China isn't a threat at all.... we even have annual stages with the ROK to plan for a fight with NK (Foal Eagle, Ulchi Focus Lens)

anyway, do your homework before you start talkin like you know somethin. and if FLINK would've done his homework he'd know that we're actually in far fewer places than we ever were and we are where we are because it's intelligent/benevolent

[Tikker]

it's cause you guys think you're right, and everyone else is wrong

funny that you should say that because that's basically your attitude

fact for me tho

in Japan, we were a big hit for many years. now it's mostly just the Navy (except Zama) and the numbers get smaller every year as they're slowly shifted home or to the DMZ in South Korea. or Thailand, or Singapore, or Guam, or the Philippines, or MALAYSIA MALAYSIA MALAYSIA, or whatever. in fact I work with someone who grew up on the base in Guam

now, while everyone likes to point their grubby fingers at China for being unruly communists, I think you're forgetting the militarily-offensive-minded North Korea. Shots are still fired across the DMZ daily by NK soldiers. China isn't a threat at all.... we even have annual stages with the ROK to plan for a fight with NK (Foal Eagle, Ulchi Focus Lens)

this is pretty much where you're wrong

NK are also unruly communists, but if you think China isn't the big reason you're still in Japan you're even dumber than I thought (and I have a crazy low opinion of your intellect already)

[Drem]

it's ok you come across as a bitter, old, self-entitled piece of has-been to me. and now you even have a corny trailer. lol

but if you really think we're there primarily for China, you're kidding yourself

also you use the wink smiley a lot and that pisses me off because you're an arrogant jackass. which is conveniently what you always try to point everyone else out to be whenever they disagree with your shoddy viewpoints and paranoia

[Drem]

and besides, how can you even argue that China is a threat? they have far too much money invested into treasury bonds to get rid of or assimilate us and they have internal drama out their ass

but... considering you never have the cojones to back anything you say up, and the numbers are visibly speaking against your shitty assumption, i won't hold my breath for a reply where you aren't trying to stroke your own ego

[Tikker]

no one has to argue with you

you just eventually degenerate into a frothing mound of e-rage



and "corny trailer"

are you seriously going to somehow try to insult a camper? lol

[Drem]

oh boy more ad hominem

i'll let you keep being bitter

[ClakarEQ]

IMO our nation is no longer majority Christian but Christian wannabes and that is far far worse the full blown true Christians.

As for these other bits you all mention re: our troops, where else would you put those tens of thousands of military people? If our presence in these nations provides benefits to locals and provides a perception of power and protection, I don't know if that is a bad thing. I think there are many other areas that could save us tens of billions (like Arlos mentioned re: military equipment spending). If we were to move them all back home, do you really think we'd need them, would the financial drain be so great to make it cost effective to move? Would we be forced to down size our military and put more vets on the street when unemployment is near all time highs?

The flip side of some of this is also in regards to speed of response. If we were not more "local" to some events that take place on the planet, it would take seemingly forever to get our ass to the other side of the globe to help, be it humanitarian or offensive.

Regardless, when I started this thread it was more about Steele and his sheer stupidity of the who's, how's, and why's of the war in Afgan.

[KaiineTN]

Oh god, a Youtube video...