Arizona

[Reynaldo]

It's a given that the majority of posters on this board are moderate to left as far as political views go so I'm curious to know if that carries over to the Arizona immigration law as well?

Do Republicans love it and Democrats hate it as a general rule of thumb?

I'm a Rep and I love it....I simply can't fathom how anyone would think it was a bad idea to have a mechanism in place that boots illegals *who are not going through the proper channels to become American citizens* out of the country.

But I acknowledge that some probably can't fathom why I would want that to happen.

Is Obama going after Arizona simply to try to keep illegals in the country since they eventually vote overwhelmingly Democrat? Is it really that simple and just under the guise of state law vs federal law snafu?

I dunno. I think it's fantastic that a state finally stepped up and had the cajones (see what I did there? har har!) to do SOMETHING. I mean maybe it's a little radical but it's better than just talking about reform and actually getting something done instead.

[Arlos]

There's multiple issues with the law.

1) Immigration control is a power given to the FEDERAL government not to the states.

2) It's blatantly racist

3) When in this country's history has ANYONE had to carry proof of citizenship with them, unless they're traveling abroad? Why should I, or any other legal resident, be forced to carry our passport when we're walking down the street minding our own business?

4) Even NOW, with current laws, there's been cases where hispanic CITIZENS have been erroneously deported, or came close. Here's a case from just a month or so ago I found in 30 seconds of looking: http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/hea ... ted-mexico How many more cases will there be of US citizens getting deported or even detained incorrectly just because they're hispanic?

5) You did know that the police forces in Arizona are totally against this, right? Because it will make it nearly impossible for them to do their job in any hispanic area of the state, as who is going to risk talking to the police or reporting crimes if they're afraid they're going to be deported, even if they ARE a citizen?


Ultimately, this isn't reform. Accusing Obama of WANTING more illegals in the country is ludicrous, considering the problem is EXACTLY the same now as it was under Bush, Clinton, etc. The only difference is there's been more drug violence, but that's not the fault of any american politician, other than the fact that the "war on drugs" provides the profit margin that allows drug cartels to exist.

So yes, the law is racist, totalitarian, blatantly unconstitutional, that won't even do what it purports to do, AND it makes the Police's normal job vastly more difficult and dangerous. All in all a complete FAIL any way you want to look at it.

The reason there hasn't been comprehensive reform done is because the Republicans aren't prepared to accept reality. They keep calling for deporting everyone who is here illegally, and that just isn't possible in the real world. How exactly are you going to round up 8-10 MILLION people, some of whom have children who ARE citizens (anyone born in the US is a citizen, that's VERY clearly delineated in the Constitution) and ship them off back out of the country? How do you even FIND them and determine who they are completely reliably so that you don't get citizens deported too? It's simply impossible. Yet the GOP keeps hammering on doing that because it makes a good sound bite to anyone who doesn't bother to think about the practicality of it. So, any real reform HAS to do Reagan did and give those already here a direct simple path to citizenship. Bush, to his credit I must admit, tried proposing something like that, but his own party wouldn't support it. Now, given that the GOP routinely filibusters EVERYTHING, what do you think the odds are that an immigration bill featuring such a provision will get past GOP obstructionism in the Senate? About 0.

Oh, and what's with all these calls to put land mines and build uberfences, and such? Didn't we CELEBRATE tearing down one such wall, you know, in Berlin? Why the fuck would we want to go the Cold War Soviet route and build a Berlin wall of our own?

For that matter, what happened to "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses"?

-Arlos

[Kaemon]

I'm a Repulican but I'm also a realist. This country will go to hell in a handbasket if it's isn't for the labor they provide. There has to be a common ground, such as getting rid of the gangs and those with records showing a history of violence. Let the hardworking person make their money and live a life that can provide to their families back home.

What white suburbanite kid will cook Applebees burger for $12 an hour? What kid will wash dishes for $10 an hour?

Brinker International (Chili's, Maggiano's, and On The Border) has already tried to stay ahead of the curve by adopting Electronic I9's that is communicated to SSA and Homeland Security. In a matter of seconds they can tell you whether or not said "hired"applicant is able to work in this country. What I mean by "Hired" you actually have to hire the person and terminate him if he doesn't pass the electronic I9.

You cannot use it as a of screening process because it becomes grey territory on discrimination. Every one already working for the company is grandfathered in, but the nightmare has begun. Out of maybe 50 Back Of House applicants you try to hire, maybe one passes and most likely, it's not even a good hire. But you're stuck hiring that person because he fills a gap and the 49 better applicants that came through couldn't get hired.

What if you have to hire 3 people? If the ratio is 50-1 you'll have to go though an avg of 150 applicants to hire 3 guys that your pray to whatever god you believe in that they can last at least a year. Now you're getting a reputation that your restaurant has this new way of detecting that your papers are no longer good. How long do you think it will take before people stop coming in all together to apply for a kitchen position?

This is just the restaurant's point of view. What about all the other manual labor most American's don't like to do nowadays since we've become fat and spoiled? Landscaping, Construction (Ditch Digging),etc, etc.

This electronic I9 is in volunteer phase right now but apperantly it will become mandatory in the next few years unless Obama 86's it. Brinker is struggling right now with this, I can only imagine if everyone will have to comply. What the ramifications will be to an already weak economy. You'll have to pay more for substandard labor of kids tweeting, texting while working. Service will drop but prices will go up all across the board.

That's my point of view and to me it's frightening.

[KaiineTN]

Actually, Arlos, the constitution never explicitly mentions immigration, so you would think it would be an issue that is left to the States, but of course our elected officials don't give a damn about upholding the constitution, and they'll find ways to justify any action.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 reads:

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Naturalization is defined as "to confer upon (an alien) the rights and privileges of a citizen."

To me, this sounds like it gives Congress and the federal government a way to make the process of becoming a citizen uniform across the country, ie, everyone takes the same test/oath. I don't believe this wording was meant to give the federal government the power to regulate all immigration as they see fit. To me, it is obvious that that kind of an issue is better managed by individual States, and that any sort of one size fits all process forced on the States will end up being unfairly harmful to some.

[Arlos]

Except that the Supreme Court has already made several rulings in the past that do indeed affirm that the Federal government has broad and exclusive powers to regulate immigration, and that federal laws on the issue trump any state laws. As I have said repeatedly before, States having primacy over the Federal government has been a settled and dead issue since the Civil War. (hint: the federal government won)

-Arlos

[Tikker]

Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 reads:

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Naturalization is defined as "to confer upon (an alien) the rights and privileges of a citizen."

To me, this sounds like it gives Congress and the federal government a way to make the process of becoming a citizen uniform across the country, ie, everyone takes the same test/oath. I don't believe this wording was meant to give the federal government the power to regulate all immigration as they see fit.

um

how do you possibly see it as wrong for the federal government to decide who becomes a federal citizen?

[Drem]

You'll have to pay more for substandard labor of kids tweeting, texting while working. Service will drop but prices will go up all across the board.

That's my point of view and to me it's frightening.

this is brilliant because it's already happened. service won't just drop, it'll plummet into non-existence

people are fat and they are lazy. our exec chef at one of our particular restaurants at the new hospital here can't make good food to save his life but is a very decent administrator so he got his position on those merits (and he's older, which is one of the biggest culprits for job-snatching in the industry) and listens to myself and other more-knowledgeable cooks when he needs it

since this is a restaurant, the quality of the food should never suffer. nor should the clients. but he'll mark up everything almost an entire dollar higher than our other restaurant at the courthouse and think that for some reason, doing something that absurd will actually make him more money. he's also heavily reliant on (and changed all purveyors to) processed convenience foods or low-quality inorganic raw vegetable, so as all of our restaurants slowly begin to peter off due to poor management, while catering (that this chef has nothing to do with thank GOD [shameless business plug: http://www.wildduckcatering.com/index.html if you're in Eugene!!!]) is booming, and the employees like myself are the ones that suffer most

we go from an already thankless job to an even harder thankless job, with customers complaining about aspects of the business that we don't have the power to change. labor suffers because morale drops. then labor hours suffer because labor has suffered because morale dropped because the customers have suffered because the boss thinks a higher price point = profit. but really he just needs to foster good morale, hire some hispanic dishwashers, lower prices, and spend more bottom line on quality product and the food will start selling itself....

sorry but your point resonates with me pretty hard, Kaemon, and i couldn't help this semi-derail/rant/tangent

[Narrock]

Still retarded political points of view I see. The Arizona law is necessary, good, moral, and is no way shape or form, racist. Fuck anybody who is opposed to it. Retards. If you oppose the Arizona immigration law, you are an epic failure in life.

[Arlos]

I'm disappointed. How many years has it been since I made any sort of ad hominem attack against you, Mindia? Yet here you go making one against me?



-Arlos

[Reynaldo]

I don't really follow how this is racist. Are you saying we can't prosecute a black guy that robs a bank because that would be racist, even though he's doing something illegal?

Also when we get pulled over by the police, what is the first thing they ask for? Driver's license and proof of insurance of course. But it's not ok for them to ask an illegal immigrant for something documenting their right to be here like they ask us for every time?

For people getting wrongfully deported, I don't have any sympathy there either. If you give a police officer a reason to believe you're up to no good, what do you expect them to do? Just wave you on with a warning and not do their job? If a cop pulls a guy over, even if they're a citizen, and the guy just shrugs his shoulders when the cop asks in English for identification, then the cop has reason to believe that person is here illegally. I'm sure cops know enough Spanish in those areas to ask for ID, so if the person doesn't comply again, then too bad. They were given every opportunity to cough up something saying they're a citizen.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on immigration. I agree America thrives on the diversity but those coming here need to follow the correct rules and channels to becoming a citizen.

That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of the flat sales tax instead of income. So many illegals operate on a cash only basis, that even if you can't keep a law in place to put tighter clamps on immigration, at least the tax will be in place to make sure they're contributing at least something back to the country they're living in illegally.

[10sun]

I don't really follow how this is racist. Are you saying we can't prosecute a black guy that robs a bank because that would be racist, even though he's doing something illegal?

Also when we get pulled over by the police, what is the first thing they ask for? Driver's license and proof of insurance of course. But it's not ok for them to ask an illegal immigrant for something documenting their right to be here like they ask us for every time?

For people getting wrongfully deported, I don't have any sympathy there either. If you give a police officer a reason to believe you're up to no good, what do you expect them to do? Just wave you on with a warning and not do their job? If a cop pulls a guy over, even if they're a citizen, and the guy just shrugs his shoulders when the cop asks in English for identification, then the cop has reason to believe that person is here illegally. I'm sure cops know enough Spanish in those areas to ask for ID, so if the person doesn't comply again, then too bad. They were given every opportunity to cough up something saying they're a citizen.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on immigration. I agree America thrives on the diversity but those coming here need to follow the correct rules and channels to becoming a citizen.

That's one of the reasons I'm in favor of the flat sales tax instead of income. So many illegals operate on a cash only basis, that even if you can't keep a law in place to put tighter clamps on immigration, at least the tax will be in place to make sure they're contributing at least something back to the country they're living in illegally.

Racist in this way:

Cop pulls over white guy. License & proof of insurance please.

Cop pulls over tan guy. License, proof of insurance, & proof of citizenship please.

I do actually have a mini-birth certificate that I carry in my car's lockbox along with a passport. However, most people don't.

Just because you are brown skinned, you will need to carry your birth certificate with you now in Arizona.

That is racist.

[Drem]

Yeah get real dude, stop thinking about the beaners that you don't even talk to and worry about people that are already citizens that are getting F'ed over by this

I agree America thrives on the diversity but those coming here need to follow the correct rules and channels to becoming a citizen.

The system is screwed tho. All the "rules and channels" as you call them are bogus. It's just fee after fee after fee after signature after signature. And if you knew anyone that earned their green card they'll all tell you that at some point, thru a clerical error on the US's side, they had to start the 10,000,000 paper signing and fees process all over again

There was a big documentary on 20/20 or one of those shows regarding how horrible and bureaucratic and money-hungry (like the rest of our retarded country, weird!!) our immigration system is. Maybe if we didn't make the process such a huge pain in the ass, more people would get on the straight and narrow and go thru with it

[brinstar]

funny story

i was reading this thread on my evo and i had shifted over the page to fit all the words of the posts (yeah i could've turned it sideways but w/e) and as a result i couldn't see posters' names or avatars

obviously SOME PEOPLE SIGN THEIR POSTS LOL but i busted out laughing when i got to this line:

Actually, Arlos, the constitution never explicitly mentions immigration, so you would think it would be an issue that is left to the States, but of course our elected officials don't give a damn about upholding the constitution, and they'll find ways to justify any action.

i believe my actual words, interspersed amongst chuckles, were "for fuck's sake flink, you're a god damn retard"

[Arlos]

10sun got it exactly right why this is racist. How many whites, blacks, or asians are going to get asked for citizenship papers? Approximately 0. How many Hispanics will? Approximately 100%. Any way you slice it, that's racist. Period.

Also, Rey, you are making the common mistake of mixing up Driver's license with proof of citizenship. They are *NOT* the same. It is completely possible to get a driver's license without being a citizen. Also, driving is a privilege in this country, NOT a right (and is obviously mentioned nowhere in the constitution). As a result, it is completely reasonable to ask people for their license if they commit some infraction while driving. However, no one in this country is required to have ID on them if they are just walking down a street, riding a bus, etc. That's been tradition in this country for more than 200 years. Yet suddenly now EVERYONE (theoretically, at least, practically, it will apply only to brown people) suddenly needs to carry passports to take a transit bus ride? To walk to a park? And if you don't, you can get deported, even if you ARE a citizen? That's not just ludicrous, it's utterly insane.

Oh, by the way, you do know that illegal immigrants DO pay taxes, right? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/

-Arlos

[Reynaldo]

No, I'm making the point that it's NOT racist at all. When I go in the liquor store, the clerk looks at me and sometimes (I'm old now) asks for my ID. I guess I should be offended and call that racist that the person is making a judgment call based on how I look.

And the driver's license thing is noting that we all get asked for something when we break the law or are in suspicion for breaking the law. The only people who get asked for their papers are people who broke the law in the first place to get stopped by police. The law doesn't have them randomly grabbing people walking down the sidewalk. The point is: In my opinion...when you are breaking the law, you kind of give up the right to be able to accuse the people who keep the law of treating you differently than those people who are abiding by the law.

That linked article is skewed as well. I'm talking about illegals that live on cash transactions. The ones that fool companies with fake identification and get on payrolls of course are going to be hit with the standard payroll deductions that we all are.

[ClakarEQ]

Rey, the issue is you don't have to break the law to be tested on this front. You could be involved in an accident or even pull over and try to help someone or any number of scenarios but if you're "brown" you better have more than just your drivers license with you or you yourself could be thrown in the clink.

Frankly I don't care how many folks come here, what race or persuasion they are, or any of it, except that they pay taxes, fed and state. That's it, if you pay those 2 bits, you can do what the fuck ever you want where ever you want to do it.

As for the illegal's AND citizens that don't pay any type of tax (no I'm not talking Mormons or American Indians btw), then you should get deported, INCLUDING the citizens (deported to where though, hmmmm :p).

[Yamori]

The dangerous implications of requiring people to carry ID papers with them should seem obvious. A legal US citizen can easily be unlawfully and unjustly detained and possibly deported just because they are brown and speak fluent Spanish and poor English and do not happen carry a birth certificate with them as they go about their day to day lives.

[Arlos]

Not to mention, the furor in all this ignores the facts.

Obama is being accused of ignoring the border, wanting more illegal immigration, etc. The FACTS are that the Obama administration is deporting 1.5-2x as many illegal immigrants as BUSH was doing, AND he has increased border patrol by 6-10% already, with more on the way.

So why is Obama catching flak for this when he's doing more about it than Bush ever did?

-Arlos

[brinstar]

because republicans are slimy

[Yamori]

So why is Obama catching flak for this when he's doing more about it than Bush ever did?

It should be obvious.

Because Obama is a president that is ineffectual and accomplishes nothing at all and is changing everything towards a socialist totalitarian state at a breakneck pace the likes of which we've never seen before. Because he's too soft on terrorists by giving them criminal rights, and because he's going to start a Nazi police state that will trample on civil liberties. Because he's a secret Muslim and radical black christian and an atheist who hasn't gone to church since he got into office. Because he's not doing enough to help people who have been hurt by the economy and because his economic stimulus spending is out of control. Because he refuses work across party lines in the senate and because he uses dirty parlimentary procedural rules to break past republicans' routine and unshakable filibustering of 99% of democrat sponsored bills regardless of their content or merit.

Because he ruined our economy by bailing out big banks, ballooning our deficits through the roof with reckless spending, mismanaging two insane and counterproductive wars that can't be won, shoving socialist "free medicine for people with no way to pay for it" down our throats, and starting new gigantic bureaucratic organizations that suck up loads of cash... Unlike our last great president who was a REAL fiscal conservative who wasn't willing to throw away our future just for the expediency of the moment.

I mean, what else would it be? Do you think Republicans and Fox News are just selfish and shortsighted partisan hacks who uniformly condemn, criticize, and blame the democrat president no matter what he says or what he does just for the sake of petty political positioning and propagandizing?

[Arlos]

Go Sarcasm!

[Narrock]

I'm disappointed. How many years has it been since I made any sort of ad hominem attack against you, Mindia? Yet here you go making one against me?



-Arlos

Nothing personal bro. You just haven't really thought this one through objectively.

[Tikker]

10sun got it exactly right why this is racist. How many whites, blacks, or asians are going to get asked for citizenship papers? Approximately 0. How many Hispanics will? Approximately 100%. Any way you slice it, that's racist. Period.
-Arlos

if you're looking for a mexican, do you question a latino? or a white/black/asian guy?

[Harrison]

I never understood that about people.

You're looking for a Mexican, so you look for...Mexican looking people, right? OMG RACIST

...fucking stupid.

[Gypsiyee]

No, you're looking for illegal immigrants (read: not all mexicans are illegal immigrants) by profiling all hispanic looking people--mexican, puerto rican, cuban, honduran, guatemalan, bi-racial, whatever--regardless of whether or not they've committed a crime to determine if you can punish them for committing a crime. that's the very definition of racial profiling. to reduce that to "when looking for mexicans you look for mexicans"--which doesn't address either issue on this subject--is pretty obtuse.