The Obama administration's war on privacy

[Jay]

This thread reminds me of why I love NT.

[Zanchief]

james huff is a parent, runner, poet, and scientist.

HAHA I love this guy. He lists scientist behind runner and poet ahahhaha. Oh boy no need to discredit. Case closed, I relinquish this argument to the Poet/Runner..../and scientist. I was looking for something like you know scientific, Drem. You based of silly evidence and what not. I'm a sheep that way. I care about proof.

[Tossica]

If you eat at any chain restaurant across the country, chances are they are serviced by SYSCO. Doesn't matter if it's pizza, seafood, sandwiches, etc. It's all the same shit.

[Zanchief]

This thread reminds me of why I love NT.

I'm feeling a bit old school. Also I'm trying to bury Flinks bullshit under as many new topics as possible.

[Drem]

well apparently the american culinary federation isn't proof enough

i think the biggest thing here, aside from zanchief's innate 12yearoldness, is that canada already produces statistically much higher quality food than the US. so arguing this with a canadian is kinda pointless, because he doesn't even understand what we're talking about. he's just caught up on semantics, as he already gets some of the highest quality food produced in the world. he's probably never had to deal with a purveyor trying to sell you a flat of tomatoes that are growing more tomatoes out of themselves that are coated in wax to inhibit mold. because i'd imagine in a civilised society that people don't settle for shit like that. which is kinda why the whole organic movement is a big deal in the states

[Zanchief]

Come on Drem. You don't think it's funny that the man from that article lists himself as a parent, poet, runner (WTF), and scientist? That gave me the biggest laugh of the day! And I'm acting like a 12 year old? That guy signs off his "scientific article" like a MySpace page.

[10sun]

While you're scouring scientific periodicals Drem, please find me some evidence that pesticides and growth hormones are harmful to people.

Good luck.

DEET.


I'll say that I don't believe that there a cross the board 8x increase in nutritional value in organic foods.

However, organic and traditionally farmed foods do contain more nutrients than petroleum farmed produce.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 95483.html
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf070344%2B
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5754/5754.pdf
http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/8418/8418.pdf


Personally, I am not an organic fanboy. I am a locavore though. I know the farms where I source 75% of my food from during the spring, summer, & fall. I have been invited to visit them and I do.
For me, it is a decision rooted in economics and locality. I want my money to stay local to better support my local economy.

Organic can be more expensive pound for pound, but going to the local markets gets me in touch with how much I am purchasing. I don't go out and buy a bag of apples anymore. I buy 4 apples each week instead of having 4 pounds of apples start to rot in my pantry. I don't go out and buy a pound of ground beef each week. I buy it a few days before I know I am going to use it. I buy bread from a local baker three times a week.

I do have the good fortune of being within walking distance to the largest 7 day a week farmer's market in Ohio. I don't visit supermarkets that often as a result. I also made a choice to spend 30 minutes a day on such things unlike so many other people in the world... I'll forgo those hours of television.

-Adam

[Drem]

james huff is a parent, runner, poet, and scientist.

HAHA I love this guy. He lists scientist behind runner and poet ahahhaha. Oh boy no need to discredit. Case closed, I relinquish this argument to the Poet/Runner..../and scientist. I was looking for something like you know scientific, Drem. You based of silly evidence and what not. I'm a sheep that way. I care about proof.

yea, you seriously are a sheep about this topic

i know i said i wouldn't look things up for you because i think people are generally lazy and lack initiative and the will to educate themselves anyway, but you're making me feel a little sorry for you on this topic so here you go. your big bad official links that apparently are the only thing that will get you to shut the fuck up about it

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-group ... ame=brpest

oh look here's a new one that just got banned a month and a half ago

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsh ... rb_fs.html

they're completely harmless or they would've been banned, right? must be a big conspiracy of unimaginable depths that people are suddenly demanding more pesticide-free food and you're sitting here saying they're totally harmless while they ruin populations of bugs, waterways, and start killing people via drinking water 30 years after their use because nobody studies the shit before they indiscriminately spray it over thousands of acres

biologist rachel carson even wrote a book about this (Silent Spring), tho it was more specifically about DDT, and was one of the first to realise that pesticides cause cancer to humans and simultaneously ruin the environment

i'm sorry you're living 50 years in the past but you're absolutely wrong

and props to you adam. i don't even do that much local grocery

[Zanchief]

I think it's funny that you're telling me to educate myself and calling me lazy when you list a cooking class for opening your eyes on a scientific (running) issue.

You're listing products that are banned. The system works! They do tests and find out its bad and bam don't use it. I doubt those are very hazardous though. Sounds like a lot of these "organic" freaks making a lot of noise about something that isn't bad for you. Here in Canada there's a complete ban on BPA. You probably have something like that over in the US but meh I don't really care. Well there's really no evidence that BPA is bad at all, but some crack pot runner/scientist cooked some books and now everyone's in a frenzy about it. You can sell fear to anyone if you get a few people involved. That's what all this pesticide "organic" business is. Growing your own food is cool though. It's like living in the apocalypse. I think you'll need your RadAway for that though.

[Drem]

right, fear is a big factor, but it's also being safe rather than sorry in most cases. and canada's far more advanced than the US regarding food production. we're still finding chemicals that are getting banned today. so when will they find which of the ones we still use are bad and which aren't?

those lists, to me, indicate 30+ attempts to save a farmer's crop at the cost of the environment. all of which were found to be hazardous. i don't want to use my body as a test tube and our country as a petri dish and i don't think many other americans want to either, which has resulted in a massive lean toward healthier food that's produced ethically. which, like i said, isn't even an issue for most countries

[Drem]

I think it's funny that you're telling me to educate myself and calling me lazy when you list a cooking class for opening your eyes on a scientific (running) issue.

fyi the degree for the ACF or CIA baking/culinary is a degree in science, not arts. you have to take math, not a language. a nutrition class isn't a cooking class. a culinary arts degree teaches you to be a chef, not a cook (there is a huge difference). it's a tradeskill, not a home-ec class. nutrition class sucks ass (i hate science) because all it is is science

what you're thinking of would be more like a culinary academy or a culinary program at one of the art institutes that isn't CIA or ACF certified. glorified martha stewart/rachel ray crap

[Tikker]

either way, you're getting fries to my table

[10sun]

You're listing products that are banned. The system works! They do tests and find out its bad and bam don't use it. I doubt those are very hazardous though. Sounds like a lot of these "organic" freaks making a lot of noise about something that isn't bad for you.

DEET isn't banned. In Canada there is a ban on products containing 30% or more DEET... but 29.9% DEET is still allowed.

I got some things in my head crossed when I wrote DEET, but I knew it was still in active use.

DDT is banned though. Take a look at the history of that chemical and how long it took between people raising red flags and the actual ban in the United States. Over 30 years (1939 to 1972). It wasn't outlawed worldwide until 2004 as a result of the 2001 Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants, but it is still used in a variety of developing nations for agricultural purposes. These bans still don't stop it from being used as a means of vector control.

That is not acceptable.

I do not know the long term and quite often the short term effects of many of the chemicals being utilized on a regular basis as pesticides. Nobody does. Given the track record of the USDA & FDA, I don't trust them; how can you?

To simplify and make an analogy: government entities have decided that they don't know if a gun is loaded, would you put the barrel in your mouth and pull the trigger?

[Drem]

either way, you're getting fries to my table

i don't short-order cook anymore

haven't worked in a place that served fries (except steak frites) for years

[brinstar]

This thread reminds me of why I love NT.

I'm feeling a bit old school. Also I'm trying to bury Flinks bullshit under as many new topics as possible.

THIS

i'd rather dig through ten pages of you guys sperging out over vegetables than read/watch ONE of flink's intellectually bankrupt ron paul posts

[Drem]

well it isn't very hard to do let's start another thread about how people think b12 only comes from animals and therefore how vegans are totally fucked

[Tikker]

I miss DDT kinda

We used to spray it liberally around telco pedestals and now that we can't some peds are completely engulfed in small forests

[Zanchief]

Just as side note Atenson. There's quite a bit of study that also shows absolutely no link to the method of growing to the levels of nutrition. What I find most dubious is that this entire "organic" craze started without a lick of evidence that it would produce better crops (and almost all evidence I’ve read confirms this now). Even if you’re seeing studies now that supports that position this was based on what evidence at the time? Wishful thinking? This is why I’m skeptical about any study that supports this idea.

Also DEET is safe. It’s been tested many times and if used appropriately it’s safe.

If you don’t trust people who actually do the work to find out if these things are safe who do you trust? That’s one of my biggest sticking points with these naturopath fruitcakes. They shake their fists at conventional science in place of…what? They’ll happily disregard perfectly valid scientific data because it’s all a tool of the man then embrace the sketchiest data that has no support by anyone (Runner or Scientist) just to perpetuate these myths.

If you don’t trust the FDE because they dropped the ball on DDT 50 years ago, then ok ignore the scientific community as a whole. I’ll listen to the guys in lab coats doing the work instead of the guys in sandals throwing a Frisbee.

[Tossica]

Just as side note Atenson. There's quite a bit of study that also shows absolutely no link to the method of growing to the levels of nutrition. What I find most dubious is that this entire "organic" craze started without a lick of evidence that it would produce better crops (and almost all evidence I’ve read confirms this now). Even if you’re seeing studies now that supports that position this was based on what evidence at the time? Wishful thinking? This is why I’m skeptical about any study that supports this idea.

Also DEET is safe. It’s been tested many times and if used appropriately it’s safe.

If you don’t trust people who actually do the work to find out if these things are safe who do you trust? That’s one of my biggest sticking points with these naturopath fruitcakes. They shake their fists at conventional science in place of…what? They’ll happily disregard perfectly valid scientific data because it’s all a tool of the man then embrace the sketchiest data that has no support by anyone (Runner or Scientist) just to perpetuate these myths.

If you don’t trust the FDE because they dropped the ball on DDT 50 years ago, then ok ignore the scientific community as a whole. I’ll listen to the guys in lab coats doing the work instead of the guys in sandals throwing a Frisbee.

I agree to a certain point BUT if the people wearing the lab coats are on the payroll of the company making the death juice, do you honestly think you are getting unbiased results?

[Zanchief]

Well the FDA isn't getting money from people making money. You can argue the greedy cock face republicans try and push things through in order to stabilize the economy and help themselves to a little hand out, but I have a hard time believe that. The guys in the labs aren't going to listen to their boss and tell them to cook the books just so some harmful substance can get sold to millions. Those guys doing the work for the FDA probably do it because they want to help people, like most civil servants. I don't know why the public service has such a negative connotation in the US.

Obviously you can't trust a companies own research since they'll play up any ambiguity.

[Tossica]

Well the FDA isn't getting money from people making money. You can argue the greedy cock face republicans try and push things through in order to stabilize the economy and help themselves to a little hand out, but I have a hard time believe that. The guys in the labs aren't going to listen to their boss and tell them to cook the books just so some harmful substance can get sold to millions. Those guys doing the work for the FDA probably do it because they want to help people, like most civil servants. I don't know why the public service has such a negative connotation in the US.

Obviously you can't trust a companies own research since they'll play up any ambiguity.

I guess you don't realize just how in bed the gov and big business are in this country. Lobbyists.

[Zanchief]

I don't buy it. One guy can try to ripp of the government, but you can't convince hundreds of civil servants to do it without one of them wanting to blow the whistle. It's just not possible especially when the only instentive for silence is keeping your job. Someone will eventually leave and spill it.

[Tossica]

I don't buy it. One guy can try to ripp of the government, but you can't convince hundreds of civil servants to do it without one of them wanting to blow the whistle. It's just not possible especially when the only instentive for silence is keeping your job. Someone will eventually leave and spill it.

It isn't some big conspiracy. If you work for Dow chemical, you do what's in the best interests for the company. It happens every day. There are plenty of people out there that are willing to lie if it means a big bonus or promotion down the line.

[Zanchief]

But I'm talking about the FDA or some other Federal Agency. How do you get civil servants to lie simply because some lobbyist got in the ear of some Governor or Senator when there isn't even any way to compensate them?

It doesn't happen.

[10sun]

The point that Tossica is trying to make is this:
Safety trials are not run by the government, but rather by research firms of the chemical producers in most cases.
Those funny guys in lab coats testing stuff on rats? They are employees of the chemical company, not the government. As in their paychecks have the chemical company's name on it, not a government entity.

DEET is actually get as 100% solutions from an camping supply store, people always wonder why the bugs never touch me.

My point with DDT is that it was not the only ball dropped, but it it took such a long time for us to realize the ball was dropped and then move on it. There are most likely a good number of chemicals in active use today that are like that.

I linked some studies on nutritional levels of organics being higher. Can you do the same or is the burden of proof for your argument on me as well?