union-busting

[brinstar]

yeah, it's the flavor of the week, it seems

obviously there's the huge vortex of controversy in Madison WI going on, but it's brewing elsewhere as well. there's even a bill on the floor here in sleepy lil' NE to shut down collective bargaining between the state gov't and the public sector

i realize that unions don't always have the nation's best interest in mind, but i find this anti-union jihad a bit extreme. wtf, the GOP wins a few congress seats and suddenly goes all vigilante on unions?

so here's a thread - go ahead and sound off re: labor union madness

[Spazz]

SUpport unions and think more people should be in them. Think unions go hand in hand with the traditional middle class society that we value. Think all this anti union shit i see and hear from the right is insane. Bout all I have to say about that im kind of busy atm.

[Harrison]

Unions: keeping absurdly high wages on jobs regardless of demand or logic, sweet.

[Spazz]

Your right we should let everyone be paid the lowest possible wage while the people at the top make out like bandits. Its not that unions and state employees are paid way to much it is that everyone else is paid too little. Peoples labor is worth something peoples loyalty is worth something and peoples time is worth something.

Why is there is there a serious lack in demand now days man ? It couldnt be that we sent tons of good jobs over seas and the people lucky enough to have jobs make pennies could it? It couldnt be that we dont protect our industries could it ?

Keep hating on unions and supporting the rich and fighting against fellow working men it seems that has been working really well for us the past 30 or so years.

Ill end this post with 3 questions. In post war America when America was really poppin and lockin what % of people belonged to unions and what % tax did the richest pay? As those numbers have shifted have things been been better or worse for the average working man ?

[Lyion]

Unions are a good thing.

Unions for Public Government jobs that allow union leaders to kickback to Political leaders for favors is a bad thing.

There is no CBA for Federal Government workers. Nor should there be. The states are just trying to catch up since the political promises from elected leaders who don't actually pay the wages is causing many states to have huge shortfalls.

[Harrison]

Your right we should let everyone be paid the lowest possible wage while the people at the top make out like bandits. Its not that unions and state employees are paid way to much it is that everyone else is paid too little. Peoples labor is worth something peoples loyalty is worth something and peoples time is worth something.

Why is there is there a serious lack in demand now days man ? It couldnt be that we sent tons of good jobs over seas and the people lucky enough to have jobs make pennies could it? It couldnt be that we dont protect our industries could it ?

Keep hating on unions and supporting the rich and fighting against fellow working men it seems that has been working really well for us the past 30 or so years.

Ill end this post with 3 questions. In post war America when America was really poppin and lockin what % of people belonged to unions and what % tax did the richest pay? As those numbers have shifted have things been been better or worse for the average working man ?

I work my fucking ass off for dick pay.

I still don't support unions. They're abused hardcore.

Apprentice linemen working at $60+/hr? Fucking retarded. They carry shit and climb poles/towers. They are linemen's bitches and make 6x as much as I do, and can't spell the names of the procedures they're performing. Work 4 months out of the year and collect unemployment the rest, making more than me on that too.

Yeah, unions are awesome.

[Tuggan]

Sounds like you should have joined the union Harry.

[Spazz]

Ok harrison first you just made my point again that companies now days get away with paying shit. Maybe its because lack of organized labor that over the years it has become the norm.

Second where are you coming up with that wage? Last and again i say this you shouldnt be bitching about people making a good wage you should be bitching about why you dont. Go back and address what I actually said in my last post with something other than a wanna be cute one liner. Unions are actually awesome they protect hard working people from being fucked over. Are there shitty guys in unions you bet but theres a whole lot of hard working men and women as well.Unions made this country what it is today and lack of them has also made it what it is today. Its really simple dude you get paid a slave wage because you and a million other delusional people are dead set against the very things that could help you.

[Yamori]

Lyion is right in that public unions are a totally different beast than private ones. The federal teacher's union dumped something to the tune of 40 million bucks last year in campaign donations if I am remembering right. It's effectively bribing politicians for fat favors on the taxpayer's dime. Neither side of the bargaining table has any compelling interest to be cost effective or beholden to the people whose wallets they're collecting the cash from, as the politicians involved have every motive to pander to a key voting/funding demographic.

If a private union obtains such lavish benefits packages that it tanks the company into bankruptcy, everyone loses and so they have a genuine interest to keep the company afloat and cut benefits when they get out of hand. But the government can't go out of business, and so public unions don't have that concern and don't care if they're adding to the deficit.

In a lot of states, while public sector employees generally make LESS than equivalent public sector workers, they actually make quite a bit more if you add healthcare and lifetime pension plans into the equation. In some states (like Wisconsin) some teachers can even get full yearly salary pensions for life, often with low retirement ages (the 55 range).

I know some will argue that Wisconsin teachers have already agreed to the proposed cuts to their benefits, but I seriously doubt they would have been willing to budge if the threat of taking away their collective bargaining weren't there.

Add that with all the resistance teachers unions have made towards educational reforms that are desperately needed for their own selfish gain, and I'm inclined to say fuck em.

That said, Wisconsin's governor has proven himself to be a first-class asshole.

[brinstar]

the real issue (in WI anyway) is that this whole thing has zero to do with the budget. it's 100% a political smash-and-grab. 7 of the top 10 organizations that contribute money to election campaigns back the GOP, and the other three are dem-supporting unions. break that up and it's all over, thanks to our bullshit election system and our nation full of morons

yes there are negative aspects to unions and yes sometimes they get too greedy and overreach themselves - i'm not denying that at all - but historically the labor movement has done a fat fucking lot for this country. 40 hour work weeks, child labor laws, living wages etc - these are the comfortable things that are easy to overlook when you are a tea party retard and you're getting bitchy about your taxes and your sense of entitlement is through the fucking roof and you want the government to magically shrink itself. seriously, who is brain damaged enough to take the gov't on its word that they won't screw its workers sideways?

what bothers me the most is that the polarized nature of partisanship has bled down into the heart of the working class, where you have people on the union side saying "don't take our shit" and you have people on the other side saying "we don't get that shit, why should YOU" instead of "hey we want that shit too"

in other words it's waaaaaayyy too goddamn much "YOU CAN'T" and not enough "WE CAN"


case in point - josh, you complain week in and week fucking out that your job sucks and you're underpaid and why should some other asshole make a shitload of money for working half as hard, so my question is this - what warped sense of nobility is keeping you from chasing down one of THOSE jobs?

[Harrison]

Ok harrison first you just made my point again that companies now days get away with paying shit. Maybe its because lack of organized labor that over the years it has become the norm.

Second where are you coming up with that wage? Last and again i say this you shouldnt be bitching about people making a good wage you should be bitching about why you dont. Go back and address what I actually said in my last post with something other than a wanna be cute one liner. Unions are actually awesome they protect hard working people from being fucked over. Are there shitty guys in unions you bet but theres a whole lot of hard working men and women as well.Unions made this country what it is today and lack of them has also made it what it is today. Its really simple dude you get paid a slave wage because you and a million other delusional people are dead set against the very things that could help you.

My best friend is an apprentice lineman. He is everyone's bitch and doesn't do dick for actual work. I hear what he does from his own lips. It's disgusting that he makes that much money for working so few months out of the year.

If there wasn't a union their wages would be balanced out over "supply and demand" in a sense. Who would be willing to do X, at Y pay? That isn't going to happen the way it is now.

Unions don't serve the purpose they were designed for initially. They're abused.

[Harrison]

case in point - josh, you complain week in and week fucking out that your job sucks and you're underpaid and why should some other asshole make a shitload of money for working half as hard, so my question is this - what warped sense of nobility is keeping you from chasing down one of THOSE jobs?

I actually enjoy my job, a lot. I've learned a lot about something that is almost a lost "art" these days with processed foods and packaged everything.

I hate the bureaucracy behind why I'm not getting what I deserve and have been promised. I don't hate my job, however.

[leah]

here's my 2 cents: yes, some unions are corrupt, but wouldn't it be better to work on fixing that corruption rather than taking away unions' bargaining rights altogether? show me an organization that is ALL good. churches have pedophiles, charities have people who skim off the top, governments have corrupt politicians. by doing away with union rights, isn't that like cutting off a foot to get rid of a splinter?

anyway, as usual, i'm sure my take on the situation is overly simplistic as i'm not as well-researched or well-spoken as brin or arlos or lyion. i just really feel like it's important to take care of people like teachers and firemen and policemen.

[Tossica]

Harrison, your friend makes $150K a year to do nothing? You are full of shit.

[Zanchief]

Lyion is right in that public unions are a totally different beast than private ones. The federal teacher's union dumped something to the tune of 40 million bucks last year in campaign donations if I am remembering right. It's effectively bribing politicians for fat favors on the taxpayer's dime. Neither side of the bargaining table has any compelling interest to be cost effective or beholden to the people whose wallets they're collecting the cash from, as the politicians involved have every motive to pander to a key voting/funding demographic.

Then stop the corruption.

I work in the private sector and I have a union. I have a CBA.

I think a lot of this is typical fear of the federal government stuff. Everyone thinks the unions are just in with the people they are bargaining with and it's this big conspiracy. Hard to believe this is the case especially when it’s coming from the same Randian anarchists who think the Federal government is responsible for all the worlds’ evils.

[Arlos]

One other area Unions have been essential for is in workplace safety. Hell, just look at mines NOW, unionized mines have 1/2 to 1/4 the casualty rate of non-unionized mines. If you want an example of what working conditions were like for some people before unions, just look up the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire.

Are there issues with unions? Sure, absolutely, no question. Is the way to fix them to do away with them altogether? Fuck no.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Harrison, your friend makes $150K a year to do nothing? You are full of shit.

Find a lineman, ask him what he makes, then suck a dick and choke on it.

[Tossica]

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Apprentice+Lineman&l1=

That's more like $20-25hr which is pretty average for a career.

What's that? I can't hear you with a dick in your mouth.

[Harrison]

I said find one. Not link some website with pretty graphs.

I get my information directly from someone personally. I don't need to pull up google.

[Tossica]

Yeah, because facts are always so hard to argue with.

[brinstar]

blah blah blah all i see is you telling other people they can't instead of telling yourself you can

[Drem]

I actually enjoy my job, a lot. I've learned a lot about something that is almost a lost "art" these days with processed foods and packaged everything

/tear this is why i cook. you're a butcher, right?

as far as unions go i say reform them, don't bust them. they play an important role in an adversarial system bringing a sort of balance of power between management and labor. for either side to just unilaterally disband is ridiculous

[Harrison]

Meat cutter, close enough really but I'm a few steps down the line in the process from actual butchering. With very little instruction I could handle the butchering process.

[Lyion]

Private Unions and Public ones are different animals.

Government unions negotiate contracts that force employees to subsidize their fundraising. Unions are the top political spenders in the country. They use that money to lobby for higher taxes and protect their inflated compensation.

This unethical model really needs to be illegal. I know some in this thread post it's for the 'greater good', but geez. That really should not fly with any rational thinker.

Again, my issue is only with Public Employee unions. There is a reason why Right-to-Work states are doing so much better. That gap will only widen.

[Zanchief]

Government unions negotiate contracts that force employees to subsidize their fundraising. Unions are the top political spenders in the country. They use that money to lobby for higher taxes and protect their inflated compensation.

Then the people negotiating these contracts aren't doing a very good job. I doubt this is the case though. Read your sig...gotcha...axe...grind...nothing changes.