State of Minnesota government shuts down tonight

[KaiineTN]

You are forced to comply with any and all things the government wants you to. Don't like medicare and would rather have responsibility for yourself? Don't pay the taxes. Get charged with tax evasion. Don't answer the charge? Get arrested. Resist arrest? Get killed.

Capitalism relies upon two parties agreeing on a mutually beneficial exchange. There is no threat of violence there. Neither party has to agree. There is no mutual agreement with government--you have to accept the government's deal, or they will initiate violent action against you.

I am of the opinion that violence is never justified unless it is in response to a previous violent act (which includes theft, fraud, etc.).

[Zanchief]

That's the most harebrained strawman I've ever heard Flink. If you resist arrest, then you are initiating violence. Even by your own fucked up code.

You have the power to change the way things are if you don't like the way people run things, it's called voting. Nothing within the system of government calls for violence.

[KaiineTN]

Resisting force is not the initiation of force. Are you retarded?

[Zanchief]

No violence will be brought upon you if you're resisting force. You act like big brother is going to send his goons after you if you don't pay taxes. Lawful imprisonment is not an act of violence.

[KaiineTN]

Lawful imprisonment is not an act of violence.

If you somehow don't think imprisonment is by itself an act of violence, then certainly you'll concede that you are being kept imprisoned under the threat of violence.

I am of the opinion that violence is never justified unless it is in response to a previous violent act (which includes theft, fraud, etc.).

Do you agree that violence is only justified in response to prior violence, or more correctly, in response to a violation of private property rights, which includes your life, liberty, and justly acquired possessions?

If you agree with that, then the argument shifts to convincing you that all government action is violent action. All you have to ask yourself is this: What if I don't cooperate?

[Tikker]

So Flink, what do you do for a living?

[Tossica]

Personal income tax does not stop job growth. People blame their failing businesses on high taxes. It's bullshit. It's failed business plans and greed that kill businesses, not the government. If you can't pay your taxes, pay your employees a fair wage and make a profit, you are a shitty business owner and should own up to your failures instead of trying to find someone else to blame.

[KaiineTN]

Tax rates have a direct impact on the measures you take to minimize your expenses (often laying people off) and what you must charge for your products and services to remain profitable, and when you're competing globally, countries with lower tax rates will be able to provide consumers with a better deal ceteris perabus.

The government certainly can and does make it harder to start and grow a business through taxes and regulations, and that certainly does hinder job creation. Tax and regulate too much, and businesses will move out of the country, as many have, at least partially. And yes, lower labor costs influence this as well.

I think our regulatory mess is more of a burden on businesses than taxes. It should be EASY to start a business. Today, it is not, especially in certain industries.

[Tossica]

Tax rates have a direct impact on the measures you take to minimize your expenses (often laying people off) and what you must charge for your products and services to remain profitable, and when you're competing globally, countries with lower tax rates will be able to provide consumers with a better deal ceteris perabus.

The government certainly can and does make it harder to start and grow a business through taxes and regulations, and that certainly does hinder job creation. Tax and regulate too much, and businesses will move out of the country, as many have, at least partially. And yes, lower labor costs influence this as well.

I think our regulatory mess is more of a burden on businesses than taxes. It should be EASY to start a business. Today, it is not, especially in certain industries.

If you can't afford to do business in the US, your business model sucks shit. People can and do make profits doing business in the US while paying taxes, a fair wage, offering benefits and without outsourcing, etc. Get a better business plan together and quit blaming the government for your failures.

[KaiineTN]

What if the reason why you can't afford to do business in the US is because of regulations that were lobbied for by the large businesses that dominate your industry for the purpose of making it too expensive/risky for new businesses to enter the market and begin chopping away at their customer base?

Things aren't as simple as crappy business models. There are many factors involved.

[Tossica]

What if the reason why you can't afford to do business in the US is because of regulations that were lobbied for by the large businesses that dominate your industry for the purpose of making it too expensive/risky for new businesses to enter the market and begin chopping away at their customer base?

Things aren't as simple as crappy business models. There are many factors involved.

You can thank capitalism for that one. Crush the competition and all that.

[KaiineTN]

Big business in bed with big government is far from capitalism. It is corporatism. If only we actually had capitalism.

I assume you'd agree with me that corporations should not be able to influence policy/regulatory decisions? If you blame capitalism for that, you're hopeless. The problem is too much centralized power naturally attracts those that will use that power for their own ends. The solution is decentralization, to take away the incentives. You'll never be able to get rid of corruption while the power is there for the taking.

Force businesses to play by the rules of the market, not by the rules others get the government to make in their favor, and perhaps you'd be able to see that capitalism serves the people best.

[Tossica]

Big business in bed with big government is far from capitalism. It is corporatism. If only we actually had capitalism.

I assume you'd agree with me that corporations should not be able to influence policy/regulatory decisions? If you blame capitalism for that, you're hopeless. The problem is too much centralized power naturally attracts those that will use that power for their own ends. The solution is decentralization, to take away the incentives. You'll never be able to get rid of corruption while the power is there for the taking.

Force businesses to play by the rules of the market, not by the rules others get the government to make in their favor, and perhaps you'd be able to see that capitalism serves the people best.

It will NEVER happen. The greedy will always find a way to bend the rules in their favor. Without government regulation, people would be enslaved and the planet would be raped. The ONLY entity that's large enough to fight for the people is the government. Too bad greed has infiltrated the government to the level that we have now. The problem isn't government, it's greed.

[Tikker]

Hey Flink


Canada is taxed way higher rates than in the USA

Yet our economy is pwning yours



Explain


Ps what do you do for a living

[KaiineTN]

Greed isn't necessarily a bad thing. Profit is not a dirty word.

You have every right to be greedy and act accordingly. So does a business.

You do not have a right to use force, through government or otherwise, to achieve your own ends.

Explain to me how we would be slaves without regulation?

And how would the planet be raped? You still have private property rights, no one can pollute your land or your air. You have legal recourse without the need for piling on tons of silly environmental regulations that you're forced to comply with that increase the cost of doing business.

And Tikker, I don't know enough about Canada's economy to say, but one thing I do know that you produce hemp products and we buy them, since our retarded government decided to make it illegal because it is in the cannabis family, even though you'd have to smoke more than your body weight to get high off it (Meanwhile, you can buy this shit on Amazon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnwS5sPOzb0).

Hemp is a great product, and I believe it is a better source of ethanol than corn. A perfect example of our regulatory insanity.

[Tikker]

And Tikker, I don't know enough

That's clear

But in the context of high tax = shitty economy you don't know what you're talking about

Kinda like everything else

I'm not going to pretend that I'm an economist, but I do have several university level economics courses to my resume, as well as working in the economic budgeting side of things in big business.

I'd like to hear what background provides you with your opinion

[Zanchief]

I'd like to hear what background provides you with your opinion

YouTube

[Tossica]

Greed isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Says you.

[Drem]

Greed isn't necessarily a bad thing. Profit is not a dirty word.

You have every right to be greedy and act accordingly. So does a business.

You do not have a right to use force, through government or otherwise, to achieve your own ends.

Explain to me how we would be slaves without regulation?

And how would the planet be raped? You still have private property rights, no one can pollute your land or your air. You have legal recourse without the need for piling on tons of silly environmental regulations that you're forced to comply with that increase the cost of doing business.

And Tikker, I don't know enough about Canada's economy to say, but one thing I do know that you produce hemp products and we buy them, since our retarded government decided to make it illegal because it is in the cannabis family, even though you'd have to smoke more than your body weight to get high off it (Meanwhile, you can buy this shit on Amazon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnwS5sPOzb0).

Hemp is a great product, and I believe it is a better source of ethanol than corn. A perfect example of our regulatory insanity.

shut the fuck up, alex jones

north dakota, hawaii, kentucky, maine, maryland, montana, west virginia and vermont are the only states not growing industrial hemp

[Drem]

he's gotta be a trust fund baby. nobody could talk like that about greed unless they're arrogant pieces of shit that've never had to work for anything in their lives

perfect example of why your ideas are basically shitty and you're naive and you're annoying and just please shut up about the economy and the shit you're never gonna be able to change: ancient rome

[brinstar]

and for the record greed is fucking always a bad thing

[Narrock]

Thanks Republican fuckheads. They are arguing over 1.3B worth of human services for the poor and elderly. The governor is proposing a 2% tax increase on the wealthiest MN residents to square up the budget and the Republicans seem willing to let the government shut down in order to protect their wealthy interests. Even with the increase, the tax rate will be lower than it was when Clinton was president. The rich were still rich in the 90's if I recall correctly.

Shut up. You're so assbackwards it's not even funny.

[KaiineTN]

Greed is not necessarily a bad thing.

You know what is really greedy, though? Wanting to take more of people's money through higher taxes in order to pay for social programs you like. That one I'd agree with you on, not good at all. We should stop that.

[Spazz]

Think about it this way dude taxes are like your member ship fee to be part of the club called americans. They have been with us since we became a country and despite what people like you think they arent going anywhere any time soon. I would rather live in a country that has a tax system and tries to help people down on they luck than a country that lets children starve to death or throws old people out in the street etc.

I wish you would tell the truth about what you do for a living so that I could have a lot better understanding of where you are coming from. You sound like you dont live in the real world when you post this nonsense and im trying to feel where your coming from instead of just say shut up kid you dont know shit.

[Markarado]

Although Spazz and I disagree on this issue, I respect him much more than most of you. He has the ability to argue/debate with us conservatives without attacking us. Most of the rest of you have done very little other attack us on a personal level in these two recent threads.