R.I.P. Steve Jobs

[leah]

lol "maybe even regret"

oh hush.

[Narrock]

I am against the death penalty almost entirely because it is impossible to have a perfect justice system. As a result, if you have society killing people for crimes, eventually you WILL execute an innocent person. I can't accept that. Add in that it's expensive and that I really don't think it deters crime much, and I don't see the point of it. I think it's really FAR greater punishment for someone to live in a SuperMax prison for 50 years, with only 1 hour a day outside their cell, and maybe 1 hour a week actually outdoors. That is FAR worse punishment than a quick death, if what you're looking for is modern eye-for-an-eye vengeance.

As for abortion, I simply don't view a very early fetus, which is barely a differentiated lump of cells at that point, to be a Child or a Person. This is just like I wouldn't call a bowl with flour, sugar, butter, eggs and milk in it a cake. There's POTENTIAL to be something else, sure, but that's just it, it's only the potential. I consider the rights of the mother to control her own body to be paramount over the theoretical rights of a potential person who may never even develop. (miscarriages DO happen, after all.) Do I think that people should use abortion as a form of birth control? Oh fuck no. That's why it frustrates me no end when I see the right decrying abortion, but then fighting tooth and nail against rational sex-ed classes that actually cover birth control instead of just abstinence. (Sorry, but telling a pack of horny teenagers, "Sex is bad, so don't do it, mmmmkay?" is about as useful as trying to stop a runaway semi with a feather duster.)

As for Jobs, I don't think ignoring aspects of the man you don't care for is a good thing. He had many sides, like we all do. He was indeed well known for sometimes being a jerk, and a horrible boss to work for. That doesn't make him any less a genius or worthy of remembering. It's just better to remember the whole of the ACTUAL person, than putting up some inaccurate marble model.

-Arlos

Being Pro-choice and anti-death penalty is 100% hypocritical. I'd be pro-choice if the "choice" was either A. Delivering the child and raising it, or B. Delivering the child and giving it up for adoption. Those are the only viable choice options.

[Narrock]

if a = b then b = a

if being against the death penalty and pro-choice is hypocritical, then so is being "pro-life" and for the death penalty

Yup, and I never said it wasn't

[Gypsiyee]

if a = b then b = a

if being against the death penalty and pro-choice is hypocritical, then so is being "pro-life" and for the death penalty

Yup, and I never said it wasn't

you realize that when you say that you're admitting to hypocritically accusing people of hypocrisy, right?

[Arlos]

Being Pro-choice and anti-death penalty is 100% hypocritical. I'd be pro-choice if the "choice" was either A. Delivering the child and raising it, or B. Delivering the child and giving it up for adoption. Those are the only viable choice options.

Ahhh, but I think you missed my implication in there that I didn't have a problem with executing the guilty, if the crime is heinous enough. My problem is that we cannot GUARANTEE everyone we want to execute IS guilty, and I CANNOT abide executing someone who has committed no crime. I also think that life in a SuperMax is a far more dire punishment to someone than a quick execution.

As for abortion, I was very specific in my analogy. A bowl with flour, sugar, eggs, butter and milk in it is NOT a cake. It is a POTENTIAL cake, but it is not a cake yet. Likewise, I don't consider an early term fetus to be a Person, baby, child, whatever term you wish to use. It is a POTENTIAL person, but sorry, but it's just not one yet. As a result, the rights of the mother (who IS a person) to control her own body are paramount over the rights of the fetus that may never even develop into an actual person. I realize you don't look at it that way, and I respect that.

Maybe someday we'll have the technology to remove even a very early term fetus from the mother and keep it alive in an artificial womb, and then that will replace abortion. That WILL be a great day. But we're not there yet. Until we are, I am sorry, but I side with the actual person over the potential one.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

s for abortion, I was very specific in my analogy. A bowl with flour, sugar, eggs, butter and milk in it is NOT a cake. It is a POTENTIAL cake, but it is not a cake yet

Ive never heard abortion sound so yummy.

Maybe someday we'll have the technology to remove even a very early term fetus from the mother and keep it alive in an artificial womb, and then that will replace abortion.

Whos going to raise this test tube baby? Whos going to pay for it ? Republicans might want to make laws that every baby conceived is brought to term but they damn sure dont want to pay for it or help it out in any way shape or form. They also want to deny certain people the right to adopt a child and give it a home. We already got surplus children that arent being taken care of and you want to make even more ? Fuck that.

[Arlos]

Whos going to raise this test tube baby? Whos going to pay for it ? Republicans might want to make laws that every baby conceived is brought to term but they damn sure dont want to pay for it or help it out in any way shape or form. They also want to deny certain people the right to adopt a child and give it a home. We already got surplus children that arent being taken care of and you want to make even more ? Fuck that.

Actually, there are more couples that want to adopt than there are infants given up for adoption. That's actually one of the more cogent anti-abortion arguments, that there are MANY families that would like to adopt, so rather than abort, why not carry it to term and then give it up for adoption?

Now, there are flaws in that logic, to be sure, and it does abrogate the whole "mother has the right to her own body" principle, but there it at least the glimmer of a point in there.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

if a = b then b = a

if being against the death penalty and pro-choice is hypocritical, then so is being "pro-life" and for the death penalty

Yup, and I never said it wasn't

you realize that when you say that you're admitting to hypocritically accusing people of hypocrisy, right?

Hey, I'm for life imprisonment with hard labor, so GET OFF MY NUTS ABOUT EVERY FUCKING THING I SAY.

[Narrock]

Whos going to raise this test tube baby? Whos going to pay for it ? Republicans might want to make laws that every baby conceived is brought to term but they damn sure dont want to pay for it or help it out in any way shape or form. They also want to deny certain people the right to adopt a child and give it a home. We already got surplus children that arent being taken care of and you want to make even more ? Fuck that.

Actually, there are more couples that want to adopt than there are infants given up for adoption. That's actually one of the more cogent anti-abortion arguments, that there are MANY families that would like to adopt, so rather than abort, why not carry it to term and then give it up for adoption?

Now, there are flaws in that logic, to be sure, and it does abrogate the whole "mother has the right to her own body" principle, but there it at least the glimmer of a point in there.

-Arlos

Thank you Arlos. It seems that a handful of people here like to perpetuate propaganda that they heard from a friend thru a friend, etc. and have no basis in reality. Yes, there are people waiting, who are qualified and ready, to adopt a baby.

[Gypsiyee]

Hey, I'm for life imprisonment with hard labor, so GET OFF MY NUTS ABOUT EVERY FUCKING THING I SAY.

Easy there, sparky. No need for caps.

Actually, there are more couples that want to adopt than there are infants given up for adoption.

This may be true, but that doesn't take into account the amount of non-infants that spend their lives in foster care waiting for a permanent home. There are plenty of couples that want babies, yes, but once they're not cute and cuddly anymore they're left to rot just like dogs in a shelter who are skipped over for a fuzzy new puppy. Babies aren't babies forever, and if we're talking adoption I think it's important to also factor in older children who never get placed.

When we have 15 million children living in poverty in the US, it's incredibly difficult to justify bringing more unwanted lives into the world to potentially suffer the same fate. The choice to screen a family and go through full term pregnancy and delivery should unequivocally belong to the person who is to endure it, because the emotional and physical repercussions will not be limited to just 9 months. As someone who just went through a miscarriage, do I think it sucks that people get to make that choice when I didn't get to? Of course. But that isn't for me to decide.

As for the death penalty, the chance of executing an innocent isn't the only problem, although it's a huge issue as well. The cost of the death penalty is higher to taxpayers than is life imprisonment. Not to mention that for the truly guilty, I don't particularly see what benefit is served by humane euthanasia. I mean really, guilty people who commit crimes heinous enough to end up on death row obviously place very little value on life. They don't fear death, so what sort of punishment is it to put them down?

[Spazz]

This may be true, but that doesn't take into account the amount of non-infants that spend their lives in foster care waiting for a permanent home. There are plenty of couples that want babies, yes, but once they're not cute and cuddly anymore they're left to rot just like dogs in a shelter who are skipped over for a fuzzy new puppy. Babies aren't babies forever, and if we're talking adoption I think it's important to also factor in older children who never get placed.

When we have 15 million children living in poverty in the US, it's incredibly difficult to justify bringing more unwanted lives into the world to potentially suffer the same fate

Straight up truth. I dont think I was clear on what I wrote earlier but that is pretty much the point I had in mind.

[Tuggan]

Thank you Arlos. It seems that a handful of people here like to perpetuate propaganda that they heard from a friend thru a friend, etc. and have no basis in reality. Yes, there are people waiting, who are qualified and ready, to adopt a white baby.

fixed that for you buddy.

[Harrison]

Some of this is like saying, "No one should have babies. There are starving children in <insert other place here>"

Ummm, the world doesn't work that way.

[Spazz]

Im saying people should have less of them. Im saying if its not going to be taken care of than dont bring it into the world. Im saying the last thing we need is another kid born do a drugged up fucking teenager.

[Narrock]

Thank you Arlos. It seems that a handful of people here like to perpetuate propaganda that they heard from a friend thru a friend, etc. and have no basis in reality. Yes, there are people waiting, who are qualified and ready, to adopt a white baby.

fixed that for you buddy.

<whistle> Unnecessary roughness

[Narrock]

Hey, I'm for life imprisonment with hard labor, so GET OFF MY NUTS ABOUT EVERY FUCKING THING I SAY.

Easy there, sparky. No need for caps.

Actually, there are more couples that want to adopt than there are infants given up for adoption.

This may be true, but that doesn't take into account the amount of non-infants that spend their lives in foster care waiting for a permanent home. There are plenty of couples that want babies, yes, but once they're not cute and cuddly anymore they're left to rot just like dogs in a shelter who are skipped over for a fuzzy new puppy. Babies aren't babies forever, and if we're talking adoption I think it's important to also factor in older children who never get placed.

When we have 15 million children living in poverty in the US, it's incredibly difficult to justify bringing more unwanted lives into the world to potentially suffer the same fate. The choice to screen a family and go through full term pregnancy and delivery should unequivocally belong to the person who is to endure it, because the emotional and physical repercussions will not be limited to just 9 months. As someone who just went through a miscarriage, do I think it sucks that people get to make that choice when I didn't get to? Of course. But that isn't for me to decide.

As for the death penalty, the chance of executing an innocent isn't the only problem, although it's a huge issue as well. The cost of the death penalty is higher to taxpayers than is life imprisonment. Not to mention that for the truly guilty, I don't particularly see what benefit is served by humane euthanasia. I mean really, guilty people who commit crimes heinous enough to end up on death row obviously place very little value on life. They don't fear death, so what sort of punishment is it to put them down?

That's Mr. Sparky to you.

[Narrock]

I am against the death penalty almost entirely because it is impossible to have a perfect justice system. As a result, if you have society killing people for crimes, eventually you WILL execute an innocent person. I can't accept that. Add in that it's expensive and that I really don't think it deters crime much, and I don't see the point of it. I think it's really FAR greater punishment for someone to live in a SuperMax prison for 50 years, with only 1 hour a day outside their cell, and maybe 1 hour a week actually outdoors. That is FAR worse punishment than a quick death, if what you're looking for is modern eye-for-an-eye vengeance.

As for abortion, I simply don't view a very early fetus, which is barely a differentiated lump of cells at that point, to be a Child or a Person. This is just like I wouldn't call a bowl with flour, sugar, butter, eggs and milk in it a cake. There's POTENTIAL to be something else, sure, but that's just it, it's only the potential. I consider the rights of the mother to control her own body to be paramount over the theoretical rights of a potential person who may never even develop. (miscarriages DO happen, after all.) Do I think that people should use abortion as a form of birth control? Oh fuck no. That's why it frustrates me no end when I see the right decrying abortion, but then fighting tooth and nail against rational sex-ed classes that actually cover birth control instead of just abstinence. (Sorry, but telling a pack of horny teenagers, "Sex is bad, so don't do it, mmmmkay?" is about as useful as trying to stop a runaway semi with a feather duster.)

As for Jobs, I don't think ignoring aspects of the man you don't care for is a good thing. He had many sides, like we all do. He was indeed well known for sometimes being a jerk, and a horrible boss to work for. That doesn't make him any less a genius or worthy of remembering. It's just better to remember the whole of the ACTUAL person, than putting up some inaccurate marble model.

-Arlos

I wish you could experience what it's like to watch your baby enter the world, and after the nurses clean it up, it looks over at you and you stare at each other. It is the true definition of love and is so amazing. Lexi looked over at us and smiled with her 6lb 12oz self. The next day you drive like 25mph all the way home taking side streets because you're so nervous with your fragile bundle. I really couldn't imagine life without her. Every night when I come home from work she screams DADDY!! and runs over to me hugging my leg and I pick her up and hug her and kiss her for a long time. I live for that. I just wish these young girls who can even contemplate abortion could just hold out on that thought and realize that they could be missing out on the best thing that's ever happened to them. And who knows... they could give birth to the person who could have discovered the cure for cancer or other diseases, or could have just been a magnificent person on some level, ie a "Steve Jobs" or whoever... And they want to kill it because it's "inconvenient" at the time? The child's life begins at conception, and even has a heartbeat shortly thereafter. Abortion is probably the sickest, most evil, selfish and disgusting concept I can think of.

[Spazz]

Thats because your not an addict and want to be a parent.... That perfect little picture you just painted isnt the reality for everyone.

[Gypsiyee]

Some of this is like saying, "No one should have babies. There are starving children in <insert other place here>"

Ummm, the world doesn't work that way.

not really. it's like saying "no one should have unwanted/uncared for babies. stark difference there.

[araby]

I went to apply for Medicaid because I don't have healthcare through my job and can't afford it on my own. They denied me because I make too much money, then they gave me a pamphlet with information. At the top of the list? An abortion clinic.

[Tossica]

Living in poverty in the US isn't the worst thing that can happen. It sucks but just because a family is poor, doesn't mean their kids are unwanted or in danger somehow.

I grew up pretty fucking poor. My lunches at school were free, I rode the bus for free, we got flour, beans, butter, cheese, milk, rice, etc from the government and that's pretty much what we lived on when I was in junior high and early high school. It sucked but we got by. My mother was not a drug addict or someone who never wanted kids. She just married a guy with lots of issues and made the hard decision to kick him to the curb and fend for herself when we were still kids. I realize that's not the case with many impoverished people but what was stated could be read as "poor people shouldn't have kids". My mother did what she had to do and my brother and I both turned out pretty awesome, in my opinion.

[araby]

I will say THIS in protest to any business owner (including my boss) big or small: this is an economic crisis we are in and it is not the time to be greedy. now is the time to give. I truly believe it is the only way out of this downfall.

it's not my boss's problem I can't afford healthcare. I don't actually think she should be forced to offer me healthcare, either. I made the personal choice not to have more children after being caught by surprise with my first one 15 years ago, so I took precaution so not to have to be on medicaid or poor, or raise a child on my middle class salary. but, I got pregnant (by surprise again!) and here we are and that's that. it's really not the end of the world, tossica you're right. we were poor too, not real* poor but thankful for the help of our grandparents, for sure. there are lots of reasons I don't have more than I do, but obviously none of the reasons are important enough to have made a difference so far. I do think individuals need to take responsibility for their decisions and actions and if they aren't happy with their situation, change something. waiting on someone else to change it for you is a waste of time.

[Jay]

"So Jay, where can I find people debating child related issues like abortion and adoption?"

"Oh, check the Steve Jobs thread on NT."