Lesbian couple to give hormone treatments to their...

[Narrock]

11 year old boy to delay the onset of puberty so the child can decide for himself if he wants to be a girl or a boy. See? This is the SHIT that drives me absolutely nuts about liberalism. I've been accused of being an "aweful human being" here, but what do you think about this??? Child abuse is exactly what this is. You DON'T fuck around with a child's hormones. It is sick, twisted, perverted, dangerous to the child's health, and is morally wrong no matter how you slice it. This is also yet another PRIME EXAMPLE of why I'm against gay couples adopting and/or raising ANY child. Don't think for a second that this is an isolated idea. Some of you may think that the child is confused about his sexuality, and I realize that this sometimes happens. However, I'd be willing to bet that gay couples are putting this shit in their children's head. I'm sure of it. So now you can also add "psychological abuse" to the long list of negatives in regards to gays raising children. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/controversial-therapy-for-young-transgender-patients-raises-questions/ Oh, and I've toned down my rant substantially. I would have posted this in EE if I really felt like unleashing the fury on what this lesbian couple really deserves.

[Spazz]

Calm fuckin down cowboy. I agree with you this is bad parenting and child abuse. No not all gay couples do shit like this. Yes in straight families there is all kinds of child abuse as well. This has nothing to do with liberals conservatives or anything else. This is child abuse. It doesnt matter if its psychological or physical straight couples are just as capable of doing shit like this. The world is a pretty big place and we shouldnt label everyone because of what one asshole did should we ? If all queers are child molesters than all christians are terrorists. Ar you understanding what im saying to you ?

[Arlos]

Indeed. While I am in complete agreement that what they are doing is wrong and fucked up, the orientation of the parents has absolutely nothing to do with it. Straight parents commit vast amounts of abuse too. One of my best female friends in college had been serially beaten and raped throughout her entire childhood, from when she was 5 or 6 until she finally left home for good at 16. Her sister was too. Of course, when my friend left home she ran to someone at least as bad, some guy she thought she loved, who also beat her and pimped her out for money. Heard stories from her that made me physically ill. Her father was quite straight, though I have no idea whether he was a conservative or a liberal. Does it matter?

How is what that couple you mentioned doing any worse than those polygamist mormon sects that have been marrying their daughters off to old men at 11 and 12? I'd call both equally reprehensible, myself, and I GUARANTEE you those mormon sects are NOT liberals.

So please, watch who you are ranting against. Rant against those specific parents, and I'll be right there ranting with you, but liberals and liberalism has *NOTHING* to do with what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

-Arlos

PS. I'll just add that the only same-sex couple I know that is raising a child are some of the best parents I know. Their kids are bright, cheerful, well behaved, and all-around great kids.

[Griever]

I agree with Spazz and Arlos, Mindia. Directing your anger at liberalism and gays for what that specific couple is doing is like saying all woman are terrible mothers because of what Casey Anthony did to her child. I'm sure you wouldn't say that about your wife, would you?

[Zanchief]

This stuff is news because it gets people like you crazy about it. This has nothing to do with liberalism and homosexuality. This is craziness plain and simple.

[Narrock]

I would agree with all of you to a point, but liberals often direct their energy towards "equality" and "freedom of sexual identification." That perversion and twist is what I based my comments about liberalism from. I agree that not all gays would agree with what that lesbian couple did, and I bet that many of them even find it reprehensible. I also agree that conservatives can also be abusive at some level.

[leah]

Indeed. While I am in complete agreement that what they are doing is wrong and fucked up, the orientation of the parents has absolutely nothing to do with it. Straight parents commit vast amounts of abuse too. One of my best female friends in college had been serially beaten and raped throughout her entire childhood, from when she was 5 or 6 until she finally left home for good at 16. Her sister was too. Of course, when my friend left home she ran to someone at least as bad, some guy she thought she loved, who also beat her and pimped her out for money. Heard stories from her that made me physically ill. Her father was quite straight, though I have no idea whether he was a conservative or a liberal. Does it matter?

How is what that couple you mentioned doing any worse than those polygamist mormon sects that have been marrying their daughters off to old men at 11 and 12? I'd call both equally reprehensible, myself, and I GUARANTEE you those mormon sects are NOT liberals.

So please, watch who you are ranting against. Rant against those specific parents, and I'll be right there ranting with you, but liberals and liberalism has *NOTHING* to do with what they are doing in any way, shape or form.

-Arlos

PS. I'll just add that the only same-sex couple I know that is raising a child are some of the best parents I know. Their kids are bright, cheerful, well behaved, and all-around great kids.

this.

a) it has nothing to do with liberalism. 2) there are straight parents who are equally as shitty or shittier parents than this couple. D) furthermore, to me, what this couple is doing is akin to sending kids away to anti-gay camps to "pray away the gay," only to a more extreme degree (as there is hormone therapy involved, which again: fucked up and wrong).

i don't think one couple (or even a handful of couples) doing something fucked up should be used to justify not letting same-sex couples adopt any more than arlos' example of a straight parent abusing his children should be used as justification for not letting straight couples have or adopt kids. not that that's ever going to be an issue, because heaven forbid straight couples should be held to the same rigorous standards and judgments as gay couples....

[brinstar]

yep, that's fuckin terrible. subjecting a child to hormone treatments that fucks with the kid's natural body balance and development is UBER wrong. see? even good ol' further-left-than-gandhi Brinstar will recoil in horror from such a thing

shouldn't that tell you something?

[Griever]

I also agree that conservatives can also be abusive at some level.

You make it sound like conservatives are better humans than liberals. It is humanity that makes people do perverse, immoral and unethical things, not liberalism or conservatism. Every ethnicity on this planet has their fair share of examples of the lows that humanity can sink to. So does that mean whites are better humans than blacks? Are Asians better humans than Hispanics?

Political alignment does not put anything into people that wasn't already there. They choose that alignment because it best meshes with their lifestyle, whether that lifestyle be ethical or unethical.

[Jay]

At some point Mindia you need to see that not every isolated incident falls into a liberal or conservative category. This post is a representation of the current state of "conservatism". A bunch of old people, out of ideas, grasping at straws to find something to pin on liberals to stall us while you look for ground to stand on elsewhere. Nice try.

[Arlos]

My friend used to tell me about nights where her father would go from room to room at night. She could hear the scresms and other noises, then the broken sobs and bleeding when he was done. She would have to lay there KNOWING her turn was soon, knowing exactly what was coming, but completely helpless to do anything about it. One specific such story was from when she was all of 10 years old. There were worse stories. So yeah, does it matter one iota what his political leanings were? And does it surprise you at all that child abuse is a VERY important topic to me even though I have no children of my own?

Child abuse is, unfortunately, a personal human failing, not a political one. As for liberals and gender roles, I think the only area I might accept that is that liberal parents are, I think, more likely to be accepting of it if their child comes to them and says that they are gay.

But to claim that liberalism was a source of abuse, well, given my background on the topic, I must admit that such a statement both angers and offends me deeply. Hate their actions, I know I do, but please dont try and make a broader associaton, when that is so patently false.

-Arlos

[Gypsiyee]

You can't paint with such a broad brush, Mindia. Not all homosexuals are liberal. For all we know, this couple could be card carrying republicans/libertarians or whatever else.

This certainly isn't a partisan issue; it's child abuse, plain and simple. Being accepting and supportive of your child for who they are is one thing.. delaying their maturity is something entirely different, and this situation is very clearly an instance of parents trying to shape their child into what they want him to be. And as others have said, there are immeasurable instances of heterosexual couples and abuse. Barring all heterosexual couples from adopting isn't the answer, either.

This type of behavior is just as bad as if a heterosexual couple did it to 'force away the gay' or however you want to put it. I'm sure that should he choose to live as a heterosexual man they'd be disappointed from the sounds of it, and that's not acceptable from either side of the gay/straight debate. Be it homosexual parents trying to nudge their child to be gay or transgender or heterosexual parents trying to nudge their gay child to be straight, both are equally wrong. The child deserves a chance at sexual maturity before they embark on such a consequential journey throughout life. Altering their hormonal growth denies them that chance.

[Narrock]

I fully acknowlege that *most* liberals and gay couples raising a child would find this case reprehensible, and that this is an isolated case. However, it's important to note, that I've heard of many gay couples who are raising a child, deliberately avoid imposing gender roles on their children, and that stems from having a "liberal" mindset. If you as a parent (straight or gay), refuse to teach a boy to be a boy, or a girl to be a girl, then you have no business raising a child. It's not about "nudging" but rather using common sense and proper parenting skills.

[10sun]

I knew kids whose parents avoided gender roles in elementary school.
Their parents were straight.

That has nothing to do with this story and your practice of ascribing attributes to all based on the decried actions of one.
Your straw man isn't holding up.

[Gypsiyee]

Imo, parents have no task in teaching gender roles to kids period. If a little boy prefers to play with a doll, let him play with a doll. If a little girl wants to play with GI Joes, let her. They're kids, and forcing them into a predisposed role is wrong. Teach them manners and etiquette and how to be a good person.. and certainly, it's acceptable to teach what type of behavior isn't acceptable as directed toward the opposite sex (hitting, etc) but that should apply universally regardless of gender.

at that age they don't see sex the same way we do, so I see no harm in letting them play as they wish. Most little girls will decide boys have cooties all on their own, and most little boys will think the same of girls. Parents are not the only influential role in a kid's life. They learn and take in so many different things from so many different people on a daily basis.

Story time.. this is going to get long, so np for those who tl;dr me.

I had a fascination with black baby dolls when I was a little girl and my dad constantly tried to force me to play with white ones and told my mom he didn't need me growing up "wanting nigger dick." I remember that statement pretty vividly even though it was so long ago. To his credit he was in his low 30s, a party guy and very much your stereotypical self involved macho man at the time; he isn't nearly so overtly obscene now, and instead hides his prejudices in alternate slightly less offensive reasoning. he's one of those people that touts "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"

anyhow, I digress. the point is that he tried to force a certain type of culture on me, and despite his best efforts I still am who I am. Throughout my life I've certainly had romantic interests in guys who weren't white, but who cares? It didn't make me a bad person. Most of the love interests throughout my life have been good people regardless of their skin color. I've never been attracted to the bad boy mentality or those who display no intellect because that just doesn't capture my interest. I avoid stupid and useless people because they're stupid, not because they're stupid and <insert race here>. I assume my dad's aversion was to the black stereotype, but I'd like to think I'm a good judge of character and I don't care what race you are, what gender, what sexual orientation, what religion.. if I find you to be someone who can teach me something and enrich my life, then your background or race is inconsequential. My playing with black baby dolls because I always thought black babies were cuter than white ones doesn't change that. I know some ignorant black people, some ignorant white people, asian, straight, gay, man, woman, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Agnostic, conservative, liberal.. but I know some really great people in all of those groups too. That's just surface crap, it doesn't matter.

My dad is very far to the right, my mom indifferent to politics for the most part but always believed in being open minded and teaching your children to do the same.

My mom never tried to force ideals on me and as I went through phases growing up she let me keep or discard them as I pleased while my dad was more of a squash any mindset he didn't believe in before it became a cancer type of parent.

He still tries to convince me that I'm not atheist, I'm not liberal, that I support things that are evil, and that eventually I'm going to "wise up" and change who I am as I get older, so even as an adult he still tries to mold me. Not even a month ago he told me that I really need to learn to believe in something because he's disappointed his daughter will be suffering an eternity in hell while he's in heaven.

Mind you, this is a man who hasn't walked through church doors in years and has never lived a totally upstanding life.

For most of my childhood life he was involved in morally reprehensible activities, including some illegal ones and a relationship with a married woman that I had full knowledge of in explicit detail (and that includes sexual activity, something a child should never know about.)

We all hung out as one big happy family and I took abuse from the husband who knew my dad was sleeping with his wife. I was forced to hold their from her children (who were deemed too good to be subjected to the torment of the situation whereas my sister and I were regarded as the lesser of the children) and the rest of the circle of friends. I'd be used as an excuse for him to see her and be dumped at their house to play with her daughter while they went out and did whatever as a couple til late hours of the morning, and other nights I'd wake up in the middle of the night to find he'd left me in our unsecured house while he went out with her. I lived with him only until I was 12, so this wasn't when I was a teenager and could take care of myself--this spanned from when he divorced my mom when I was 5 until he moved to Florida. He *did* force that lifestyle on me, and I didn't grow up to be an adulterer just because I saw it my entire life. And adultery is a choice.. homosexuality is not.

It doesn't matter what belief system you subscribe to, there are parents in each of them that try to force their kids to be a certain way. Trying to force a child to be something or believe something is often counterproductive. Everyone is so very different, and that's as it should be. There's nothing wrong with positive reinforcement, an open mind, and giving your kids the freedom to be who they are--that may be what you'd consider a liberal mindset, but that's not the contributing factor in this case.

Bottom line, this is bad parenting.. not liberal parenting.

[Narrock]

I knew kids whose parents avoided gender roles in elementary school.
Their parents were straight.

That has nothing to do with this story and your practice of ascribing attributes to all based on the decried actions of one.
Your straw man isn't holding up.

Straw man? You sure have trouble with accepting reality. Apparently you live in a tiny and sheltered world that the majority of the populace can't identify with. I'll be nice and just leave it at that.

[Narrock]

Gyps, I will forever be in stark disagreement with you about the gender role issue. What I will agree with you on is that love is colorblind.

[10sun]

I knew kids whose parents avoided gender roles in elementary school.
Their parents were straight.

That has nothing to do with this story and your practice of ascribing attributes to all based on the decried actions of one.
Your straw man isn't holding up.

Straw man? You sure have trouble with accepting reality. Apparently you live in a tiny and sheltered world that the majority of the populace can't identify with. I'll be nice and just leave it at that.

If one of A is B.
Then all of A is B.

If one Lesbian Couple are horrible parents.
Then all Lesbian Couples are horrible parents.

If one person of German Heritage had Nazi parents.
Then all persons of German Heritage had Nazi parents.

[Gypsiyee]

Let me preface by saying much as we disagree on many issues, I'm sure you'd agree that I'd never insult your child, so please don't take the following comment as slander because I absolutely do not intend it that way--this is simply a personal question to you.

What would you do if when she matures and gets interested in relationships, Lexi came to you and said "dad, I'm a lesbian"?

Since it's been extensively researched and there's been quite a bit of evidence pointing to biological factors in determining sexuality, would you try and convert her to heterosexuality? And if so, do you believe that's any different or more acceptable than trying to convert an adolescent to be gay?

And I want to say, too, that teaching a little girl to be feminine or a little boy to be masculine holds no bearing on their sexual preference. Not all lesbians are butch, and not all gay men are effeminate. Both are stereotypes applied to the homosexual community, and while certainly there are those who will fall into that stereotype, it simply isn't true for all as is the case with any stereotype.

[Narrock]

Gyps, if Lexi approached me with (God forbid), "Dad, I'm lesbian" of course I'd be disappointed, and so would her mother. That's a nightmare'ish scenario to almost any parent, but I wouldn't disown her or love her any less because of it. I believe firmly that if you don't impose gender roles then the likelihood of your child turning gay later increases. For example: If I had a son who I saw wearing mom's dress or heels, I wouldn't let it slide and not say anything... I would say something to the effect of, "Take that off. Boys don't wear women's stuff" and I wouldn't let it happen again. That's what a responsible parent would do, imho.

[Zanchief]

Gyps, if Lexi approached me with (God forbid), "Dad, I'm lesbian" of course I'd be disappointed, and so would her mother.

Alexxxis' mother feels like you? Hmmmm....


Mod note: Edited slightly for politeness. That is all.

[Narrock]

What parent wouldn't want to have grandchildren of their own flesh and blood? Of course it would be disappointing to have your child tell you they're gay. Unless you're some kind of freakish weirdo.

[Arlos]

Gyps, if Lexi approached me with (God forbid), "Dad, I'm lesbian" of course I'd be disappointed, and so would her mother. That's a nightmare'ish scenario to almost any parent, but I wouldn't disown her or love her any less because of it. I believe firmly that if you don't impose gender roles then the likelihood of your child turning gay later increases. For example: If I had a son who I saw wearing mom's dress or heels, I wouldn't let it slide and not say anything... I would say something to the effect of, "Take that off. Boys don't wear women's stuff" and I wouldn't let it happen again. That's what a responsible parent would do, imho.

I don't know that I agree about it being at all a nightmare-ish scenario for any parent. To me, I would think, "Dad, I'm pregnant" from a young teenage daughter would be a FAR bigger negative admission than "Dad, I prefer girls to boys." That's also leaving out the TRUE nightmares, like getting that call from the police or a hospital, "We need to inform you your child has been in a serious accident....", or the overhyped, but still possible one of having someone snatch your 7 year old from off the street. Compared to all of those nightmare possibilities, a declaration of homosexuality would be WAY down my list, if on it at all.

Certainly, I would probably be surprised if a daughter told me that, and concerned about her that (at least in society up til now) she will have a harder road to travel than someone who is straight. There might be some disappointment, like you mention, in the decreased likelihood of grandchildren. (though it's hardly unknown for lesbian women to have children, via artificial insemination) But disappointed in HER? No, not at all. And I must say, I don't really consider myself a freakish weirdo...

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Well, I'm just telling you how I would react in that stuation. That doesn't make me wrong or bad.

[Gypsiyee]

I'm not sure you can call that a nightmare situation for almost any parent because that's simply not true. And again, that's not just applicable to the liberal or even non-religious community. There are plenty of people from any belief system that would accept their child willingly without regarding it as a worst fear coming to fruition. If it was only a liberal and non-religious issue, then how do you come to explain people like Andrew Sullivan: conservative, Roman Catholic, and gay.

I don't doubt you'd love her any differently, that's why I didn't ask that question. I asked if you would try and push her in the opposite direction.

Statistics have shown that the percentage of homosexuals are relatively equally disbursed amongst all cultures, and the idea that society or culture converts people to homosexuality is in opposition to the numbers. I don't believe that you can turn someone gay anymore than you can turn them straight, regardless of whether or not a little boy who's being silly is reprimanded for wearing his mom's shoes.