Is this guy unimpressive or what?

[brinstar]

If you have such a huge problem with him, I want to hear you in your own words express your disappointment with the specific legislation you have a problem with instead of the broad generalized statements of how terrible he is with no explanation. I can read websites all on my own and see what other people think about him. If I'm talking to you, I want your stances, not parroted outrage of talking heads.

clearly he can't, or won't.

[brinstar]

FPb takes no responsibility for his reckless spending, and blames the country's woes on Bush.

are you intentionally disregarding facts? here, i'll make it real simple:

bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy + bush's two unfunded wars + bush's TARP = HUGE HOLE IN THE ECONOMY

show me any evidence whatsoever to the contrary, please.

Newt

Every few weeks the R-branded cattle stampede toward a different candidate like s/he's the Last Stand Against The Brown Antichrist they've been pining for since 2008. pathetic. nevermind how morally bankrupt the flavor-of-the-month is, at least s/he's not *hissss* OBAMA! such a joke.


oh yeah, and

Each new president inherits a mess and then adds even more to the national debt.

*ahem* perhaps you forgot GWB entered office with a budget SURPLUS and turned it into the biggest deficit in US history.

Voice of Mod: Edited for Politeness

[brinstar]

wtf, m8? calling mod bullshit here.

okay, i get it, so you "clean up" what i suppose you interpreted as direct personal attacks in the first and second statements (which is a stretch) - but then you actually put words in my mouth on my last statement. hell, you wrote more of that than i did!

the former? whatever dude, go ahead and grind your little axe. the latter? step the fuck off please, that's crossing the fucking line.


EDIT: and you lock the post so i can't even spit your words out. classy!

[Arlos]

You're right. I have now taken that part out. My apologies. I was trying to transmit the same sentiment you had by restating it, but you're right, that was too much, and as I said, my apologies. Won't happen again.

I do not apologize for cleaning up the first part, though. It WAS directly attacking. I also lock the post on the rare occasions when I've done that so people can't go and turn it back into an attack again.

You know I agree with you on most things, Brin, but I was really serious about being tired of people screaming at each other and doing more name-calling than debating, and that the rule applied to all sides equally. I think things HAVE been better around here since then. I think this is only the 3rd or maybe 4th post I've touched in the 6 weeks+ since I posted about it. Not at all trying to in any way stifle debate, just make it more civil. I got very tired of reading posts and having a bunch in a row being nothing but insults back and forth. That's why I won't apologize for trying to clean that up, but I'm human and make mistakes, which I acknowledged. You have a way you want the last statement reworked again, PM me what you want there, and I'll fix it.

-Arlos

[Drem]

oh how surprising, arlos is still on a power trip

at least his "admind abuse squad" title is accurate

see with my post that he edited i'm not sure what he did because i came back to it days later and saw it had been edited. i love that you actually caught him re-writing your post

who does this guy think he is? and why does he think that's okay? do we suddenly have more than ten active posters? do children post here? does anyone give a shit besides Arlos? why won't he post his facebook info? why does he sign every post manually with "-Arlos" when it's connected to his forum account name?

these are dark times we live in.....

[Arlos]

A power trip consisting of asking people to be marginally polite, and to cut down ad hominem attacks, that has involved editing I think 4 entire posts in 6 weeks? Yeah, that's some power trip... rofl. Oh yes, I so get off at the unbridled power of having to delete spam posts, and the joys of staying up late trying to solve board issues like a few weeks back when the styles got corrupted... It makes my peepee feel bigger!

Look, like I said before, if you have a problem with the way I handle things, you are completely free to contact Gidan and complain. No one has to "catch" me editing posts, as I have very clearly posted the fact that I did so every single time I have done it. Or did your vast Sherlock Holmesian intellect fail to notice the bright red note at the bottom of the post? I did make a mistake in how I edited Brin's, and unlike some people, I actually admitted I made a mistake, apologized, offered a method of correcting things. What more penance would you deem suitable, oh flawless one?

Oh, and by the way, I can't recall ever saying I wouldn't give anyone here my facebook info. No one has ASKED for it, though. Now, I won't give it to YOU, because I don't LIKE you. Other people, well, if they want to send me a PM about it, they can feel free.

-Arlos

[Drem]

you admitted it after he called you on it. otherwise you would've just went on like normal. people like you bother me

especially when you use retarded terms like "oh flawless one" when you're the one that always acts high and mighty. fuck outta here with that crap. you are so goddamn weird

[Arlos]

Uh, I admitted a mistake when he mentioned it because, *gasp* I didn't think it was a mistake when I did it, or, golly gee whillackers, Poindexter, I wouldn't have done it like I did. Note that the fact that I did edit it is QUITE clearly labeled in the post, so it's not like I'm hiding doing something. I'm sorry you find the idea that I would ask people to maintain a limited level of politeness to be so horrifying.

Oh, and I'm all broken up about you not liking me. Honest. Really I am. Just sobbing here. Crushed, I am.

In any case, please go back to the topic of the thread at this point. If you wish to continue making posts in an attempt to insult me, feel free to head down to EE and do so there. I am sure you will find the posts you make very amusing, even if no one else does.

-Arlos

[Gypsiyee]

bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy + bush's two unfunded wars + bush's TARP = HUGE HOLE IN THE ECONOMY

+ half a trillion in the medicare prescription program lest we forget.

[Narrock]

bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy + bush's two unfunded wars + bush's TARP = HUGE HOLE IN THE ECONOMY

+ half a trillion in the medicare prescription program lest we forget.

First off, I admitted that W spent like a drunken sailor, did I not? Secondly, I wonder if Birnstar knows that "budget" does not mean "national debt." And how come you're not acknowledging that FPb ADDED over 4 trillion dollars to our national debt? And thirdly, it was a DEMOCRAT who got us into every war in U.S. history (unless the history books are full of shit) and increased the national debt immensely. Please stop with the "it's all W's fault" bullshit because it's pure propaganda.

[Narrock]

you admitted it after he called you on it. otherwise you would've just went on like normal. people like you bother me

especially when you use retarded terms like "oh flawless one" when you're the one that always acts high and mighty. fuck outta here with that crap. you are so goddamn weird

Drem, all he's saying is stop with the personal attacks and insults. He called me out on it a couple months ago, and ever since, I've toned it down and pretty much eliminated the personal attacks.

[Tossica]

bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy + bush's two unfunded wars + bush's TARP = HUGE HOLE IN THE ECONOMY

Please stop with the "it's all W's fault" bullshit because it's pure propaganda.

But somehow it's all Obama's fault?

[Narrock]

Tossica, clearly you're just skimming and not reading.

[Gypsiyee]

No, you've admitted to Bush's spending, I don't deny that.

I was more responding to the reasons why President Obama rightfully puts a lot of the blame on the Bush administration for the economic woes of today. He doubled the national debt during his tenure during what historically should be a period of significant economic expansion.

President Obama has added a lot of debt as well, yes--but the debt added was widely considered a necessity and though it wasn't as successful as we'd all hoped, it did result in growth. He's also proposed means of paying for it which have gotten shot down over and over again in the name of partisanship. When you inherit a tanking economy to proportions that haven't been seen in almost a century, you simply can't use the same measures of evaluation as you would against normal conditions.

Nothing can be blamed on one single person or administration; to be sure, Bush can't possibly hold all the fault here, but to deny that policies passed under his watch were pivotal contributors to this recession is neglecting some key facts of what transpired.

[Narrock]

Thank you. /hug. I'm not saying it's all FPb's fault either, but we're going to be in stark disagreement about the "necessity" part. W did start the bailouts which put us further in debt, but FPb did carry that torch and dug us deeper in the hole (hello GM and others). Unnecessary wasteful "Czars" and on and on. Unemployment is higher now too than it was under W. But in addition to FPb being a fiscal retard, there are numerous reasons why I can't stand him. His appointments... Elana Kegan, Eric Holder (most corrupt attorney general in U.S. history) and other tools. His commuist associates (George Soros, William Ayers, the "reverend" Jeremiah Wright) and so on. FPb is also the most devisive president I can think of, widening the gap between racial lines. He put cops in a straight-jacket, claiming that cops pull over minorities disproportionately (more BULLSHIT) so now cops cant do their job and have to be extra cautious about pulling over a minority. He made it so that our military grunts now only have 3-round clips. His administration refuses to acknowlege that illegal immigration is a huge problem, and even had the nerve to sue Arizona for wanting to solve their own illegal immigration crisis. He is working with the U.N. to implement a global ban on citizen-owned firearms . I could go on and on about why I hate this fucking ASSHOLE. He is a constitution-stomping unpatriotic danger to the future of America. We need him or any other democrat like we need a hole in the head.

[Narrock]

Let's also not forget about how our tax dollars are lining the pockets of union thugs, his unconstitutional "obamacare", his hate for Israel, his bowing down to Arab leaders and on and on. I'm actually getting more and more pissed off thinking about FPb's antics so I need to listen to some music and calm down. lol

[Arlos]

Thank you. /hug. I'm not saying it's all FPb's fault either, but we're going to be in stark disagreement about the "necessity" part. W did start the bailouts which put us further in debt, but FPb did carry that torch and dug us deeper in the hole (hello GM and others). Unnecessary wasteful "Czars" and on and on. Unemployment is higher now too than it was under W. But in addition to FPb being a fiscal retard, there are numerous reasons why I can't stand him. His appointments... Elana Kegan, Eric Holder (most corrupt attorney general in U.S. history) and other tools. His commuist associates (George Soros, William Ayers, the "reverend" Jeremiah Wright) and so on. FPb is also the most devisive president I can think of, widening the gap between racial lines. He put cops in a straight-jacket, claiming that cops pull over minorities disproportionately (more BULLSHIT) so now cops cant do their job and have to be extra cautious about pulling over a minority. He made it so that our military grunts now only have 3-round clips. His administration refuses to acknowlege that illegal immigration is a huge problem, and even had the nerve to sue Arizona for wanting to solve their own illegal immigration crisis. He is working with the U.N. to implement a global ban on citizen-owned firearms . I could go on and on about why I hate this fucking ASSHOLE. He is a constitution-stomping unpatriotic danger to the future of America. We need him or any other democrat like we need a hole in the head.

Couple things there:

1) Bailing out GM saved millions of jobs (not just at GM, but at all of the parts suppliers as well, which would have all gone under if GM had). They are profitable again, and are in a prime position to rapidly be able to pay off all of the money loaned to them, if they haven't done so already.

2) What "czars" did Obama appoint that Bush (or Clinton, I suppose) did not? Also, I don't know that even multiple salaries of 200k a year amount to an even remotely statistically significant fraction of a percent of the federal budget. That's like buying tires good for a billion miles, and complaining they wore out at 999,999,999 instead.

3) As much as the right wants to drum it up, Obama being close friends with Ayers is a complete myth. They had met, and Ayers held a fundraiser for him, but no one anywhere has produced a shred of evidence that they were or are close.

4) If you think Holder is the most corrupt attorney general in history, you need to look up John M Mitchell, who was convicted of perjury, obstruction of justice, and conspiracy, after he was caught, on tape, helping plan the Watergate break-in, and helping orchestrate the cover-up of all of the utterly illegal stuff Nixon and his cronies were doing. Illegal wiretaps, letters forged on campaign stationary and then released to the press as authentic to ruin candidate's careers are just the BEGINNINGS of what that crew did. Oh no, I dont' have any idea what you claim Holder has done, but Mitchell was by far and away more corrupt, without any possible argument.

5) 3 round clips for the military? I haven't seen ANYTHING on that ANYWHERE, and I just spent 20 minutes looking. That sounds utterly ridiculous, and unless you can show me something credible about it, I don't believe it for a second. Seriously, I want to see your proof of this assertion, cause I think it's complete BS.

6) Arizona's law IS unconstitutional, and should never have been signed into law. I will agree that illegal immigration IS a problem, but I do not for a second believe it is the dire imminent threat that you, and others seem to think it is. I completely agree we need comprehensive federal reform, but how is that supposed to happen when the GOP filibusters any attempt at discussing it? Also, how do you do immigration reform if one side refuses to acknowledge that deporting every single illegal immigrant is a logistical impossibility? The right screams "NO AMNESTY!" any time people try and acknowledge that fact when they discuss immigration policy. You CAN'T deport everyone here illegally, or even a significant fraction of them, so you MUST enact policy based on the fact that they ARE here, and some way to integrate them into society is absolutely necessary. But when one side doesn't recognize reality.....

7) Global ban on citizen owned firearms? I cry BS on this one again. What is being discussed with the UN is a ban on international weapons trafficking. It has nothing whatsoever to do with individual firearms ownership. http://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/intern ... an-treaty/ So yeah, claiming that it's an attempt to remove the right to own firearms for US citizens is absolutely and completely false. Simply not true. Even if he was stupid enough to try and get them restricted via treaty (which wouldn't work anyway, because treaties do not effect strictly internal domestic laws), treaties need to be passed by 2/3 of the Senate, and a treaty that tried to do any such thing would never pass with a 2/3 vote in a million years. So yeah, this point is utterly ludicrous, and I am disappointed in you that you would believe it, Mindia. Lord knows, given your stand on social issues, I can see where you would have some areas of legitimate beef with the President (he's pro-choice if nothing else), but to simply invent things that aren't true is absurd. In any case, you know, for all the screaming and ranting that "OBAMA WANTS TO TAKE UR GUNZ!" when he went into office, the ONLY bill he has signed to do with gun control actually EASED restrictions. He has done nothing whatsoever to restrict gun ownership in any way.


-Arlos

[Narrock]

Arlos, the 3-round burst thing was not a public announcement, which is why you're having trouble finding it on the internet. A Marine Lieutenant called into a talk show and discussed it with the host (Michael Savage)... I heard the whole thing. It came about because allegedly, a couple Marines shot innocent civilians over in Iraq a couple years ago, so this was FPb's solution to that. Further proof that FPb is crippling our military and giving Al Qeida and the Taliban a tactical advantage. And yes, FPb DOES want to ban gun rights. That is NOT propaganda no matter how hard you wish it was. Arizona's law is NOT unconstitutional. They have a CRISIS over there with illegal immigrants. FPb and Holder need to step down and stfu... If anything, they should help FUND Arizona's efforts. Holder helped arm Mexico's drug cartel... All those missing weapons are turning up at crime scenes from the drug cartels killing people. Google it. Yes, Eric Holder is a corrupt piece of shit. The Czars? Nobody has appointed as many of these useless fucks than FPb. Just google "obama appointed czars.". It's ridiculous the amount of wasted tax dollars he's squandered on useless bullshit. GM... No, they did not need to be bailed out. They have their own internal corruption. They need straight management, not government takeover.

[brinstar]

bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy + bush's two unfunded wars + bush's TARP = HUGE HOLE IN THE ECONOMY

+ half a trillion in the medicare prescription program lest we forget.

First off, I admitted that W spent like a drunken sailor, did I not? Secondly, I wonder if Birnstar knows that "budget" does not mean "national debt." And how come you're not acknowledging that FPb ADDED over 4 trillion dollars to our national debt? And thirdly, it was a DEMOCRAT who got us into every war in U.S. history (unless the history books are full of shit) and increased the national debt immensely. Please stop with the "it's all W's fault" bullshit because it's pure propaganda.

please show me where i have conflated "budget" with "national debt" because if i have done so i would like to correct myself

to restate: GWB inherited a budget surplus from WJC, fact. budget surplus, if left unmolested, will eventually pay off national debt, fact. GWB molested that surplus with two unfunded wars, criminally insane tax breaks for the megawealthy, TARP, and half a trillion in medicare scrips (thanks gyps), fact. if any of those facts are erroneously founded on a conflation between "budget" and "national debt" i'd be grateful for correction

and would you care to explain your (frankly outlandish) claim that "a democrat got us into every war in US history"? gulf wars 1 and 2 called, they'd like to hear that explanation - and i think afghanistan is holding on the other line


furthermore,



weird, i thought the republican party was supposed to stand for fiscal restraint and reined-in spending? even weirder, how is it that so-called "tax and spend" democrats tallied so gosh-darn low?

granted, we'll have to wait until 2017 to see how Obama truly stacks up, but spoiler alert: three years into his first term he's sitting at a shocking 34% (but wait, that's even lower than Clinton??). oh, and before you cry "bias" please note that these figures are pulled directly from public government records

[numatu]

Any chart that tries to tie debt to a president is inherently biased.

There are far more intricacies to every single one of those debt/presidencies than what the chart is trying to pass off, without mentioning the branch that passes budgets.

[Narrock]

WW1, WW2, the Korean war, Vietnam... Funny how you cherry pick... And I'm not a water-carrier for the republican party. I'm sick of their corruption as well, and so are millions of Americans, which is why the conservative grass roots movement called the tea party came into existence. And just wait and see what your nifty little chart will show when FPb's reign of terror is finally over.

[brinstar]

conservative grass roots movement called the tea party

i almost spat out my beverage lmao

[Narrock]

conservative grass roots movement called the tea party

i almost spat out my beverage lmao

[Gypsiyee]

WW1, WW2, the Korean war, Vietnam

well first, you should take note of the tremendous ideal shift in the parties since the beginning of the 20th century. remember, Teddy Roosevelt was the leader of the progressive movement, and he was a republican prior to running under the most successful third party bid in history as a Progressive Party candidate.

Woodrow Wilson was a more conservative democrat whose campaign platform centered around individual freedom and state's rights.. sound familiar? it should, since it's some of the same stuff the tea party touts.

as for WWII, it wouldn't have mattered who was in office. After Pearl Harbor there was an (almost) unanimous vote to declare war against Japan. only one person voted against it and she was anti-war partially on the premise of (quite literally) her womanhood.

Truman got involved in the Korean war partly because republicans were sniffing around trying to represent him as soft on communism. Of course, there were a number of other (more important) factors including the soviet union's atomic bomb in 49, but there was some politicking pressure there too (a democrat accused of supporting communism? there's a new one! /cough) and as we know, communism was the same reason for entrance into vietnam, though if I was me in 1965 I would've likely been on the anti-war activist side. LBJ did a lot of good things that are overshadowed by Vietnam and I'm sure you know that there was a split in the democratic party itself over that war that ultimately led to LBJ dropping out of his re-election bid.

and I have to agree with Brin about the tea party... the tea party is astroturf, not grassroots.

[Narrock]

Doesn't matter, even if I agree with you on some points. Birnstar's basic theory is that Republican's are blood-thirsty war mongers, which is wrong and an ignorant stance, and I just wanted to point out the FACT that it was the DEMOCRATS who got us into most wars and who subsequently got America into a financial mess, no matter how you try to spin it. Anyway, my biggest problem with the democratic party is their retarded stance on social issues. Their fiscal retardation just adds fuel to the fire.