The Castle law is bad for you (if you're a criminal)

[Menelvir]

S.A. man shot in face kills home invader, wounds another

The fact that the perps went there armed with an AR-15 indicates to me that they were probably expecting some kind of resistance, and/or had some kind of supposed information about the homeowner / what was inside the home, because I don't think most burglars pack assault rifles to a home burglary job.

The homeowner is pretty lucky -- for home defense, a shotgun would be my first choice too -- normally, a couple loads of double-ought buck at a range of a few meters is a marvelous disincentive, unless of course the bad guys have something bigger. Still, he put one in the morgue and one in the hospital, so props to him for protecting his property.

[Zanchief]

S.A. man shot in face kills home invader, wounds another

The fact that the perps went there armed with an AR-15 indicates to me that they were probably expecting some kind of resistance, and/or had some kind of supposed information about the homeowner / what was inside the home, because I don't think most burglars pack assault rifles to a home burglary job.

The homeowner is pretty lucky -- for home defense, a shotgun would be my first choice too -- normally, a couple loads of double-ought buck at a range of a few meters is a marvelous disincentive, unless of course the bad guys have something bigger. Still, he put one in the morgue and one in the hospital, so props to him for protecting his property.

I’m sure they went there looking for some loose change and a toaster…Sounds like drug related to me. Get all self-righteous about gun ownership if you want though.

[Menelvir]

I'd rather be prepared if someone came through my front door in the middle of the night. Maybe the odds of that happening to me are rare, but I wouldn't discount them entirely. I hope it never happens to me, to you, or to anyone else, yet, it still happens.

This may have been drug-related, probably was, but ... without more information, we won't know that.

And I'm comfortable with self-righteous as a label in this regard, if that's how you want to characterize it.

[Lyion]

Guns are an offensive weapon. If you are worried about home invasion, you are far better off with an alarm system.

Every time I see a story about some kid who shot either himself or another kid, I bet the jacko had the same 'I need to protect myself meme' as the rest of the wild west types.

The only exception I can see is if I lived in Spazz's neighborhood. I then would disavow all my personal beliefs and own a trained killer Pit Bull and keep a Howitzer near my front window.

[Menelvir]

I guess guns wouldn't be much use if they weren't offensive.

In my situation, the odds of a kid obtaining and shooting himself with one of my firearms is pretty much nil, at least partially due to the fact there are no kids inhabiting my household where the guns are located.

It's interesting to me that an individual could be against gun ownership generally, yet be willing to make an exception based on the nature of the immediate environment. Spazz's neighborhood is more violent than mine, therefore it's justified to own a weapon in his neighborhood but it isn't in mine.

If there's a sharp dividing line that separates civil society from the state of nature, a line that criminals don't cross where you happen to live, then I guess I envy where you happen to live. I don't think that's the case in the majority of places.

If I were in a dangerous, high-crime neighborhood, my first choice would actually not be to own a firearm for self-defense, it would be to move.

If the option to move weren't available, then I'd start looking at other options.

[Spazz]

Ya know even if it is drug related I think a nigga still has the right to defend his life.

Spazz's neighborhood is more violent than mine, therefore it's justified to own a weapon in his neighborhood but it isn't in mine.

That line of thinking is seriously flawed. Bad shit can happen to anyone anywhere. You hear about it ever night on the news but most people are sure that will never be them because they live in nice places. Bottom line is that some times you have to be willing to do what you gotta do to make sure you get back to your loved ones.

Other part of this flawed logic is people always say give a criminal what they want and they wont hurt you. We know thats a load of shit cuz we hear bout people killed in mugings and rapes all the time. If someone is crazy enough to come take yours with a weapon its not that far of a stretch to say they might be violent and unstable.

[Jay]

Menilvir, pretty much nil isn't nil and its kinda strange you would point out your over preparedness in the unlikelyhood of a home invasion to defend gun ownership yet point out the unlikelyhood of a accident involving a child as your ground to stand on for the debate.

[Menelvir]

Never claimed that 'pretty much nil' was equivalent to nil. Could my gun be stolen and wind up in the hands of child that shoots himself with it? Sure, it could happen. Just like a lot of things could happen. I could be killed walking my dog across the street, does that mean I shouldn't worry about anything else?

I haven't stated or inferred anything about my situation other than I possess a firearm, so I'm not sure how that makes me over-prepared. I would like to think that I'm prepared to just the degree that is necessary to protect myself, my family, and my property.

On the other hand, nothing would ever fully prepare me to kill another human being. That's why I hope I'm never in that situation. But if I am in that situation, I want to shift the odds as much in favor of my survival as I can.

If others have the luxury of being able to wait around for police to arrive after your home is invaded and your home alarm goes off, then <shrug> what can I say? More power to you. I sincerely hope they arrive in time to prevent something bad from happpening to you or people you care about.

[Jay]

I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here but you mention preparation and tipping the scale for survival when what I see is that you're tipping the scale in your favor as far as a home invasion goes but tipping the scale against your favor in the case of home accident. Safer one way but more exposed in another.

[Spazz]

With how many guns there are in circulation accidents are pretty rare. People get all emotional when some bad shit happens but when joe blow smokes some crackhead breaking in his house at 3 am it doesnt get half the media. Most gun safety comes down to not being a moron. If you got kids you gotta take extra steps to be safe. Dont use high powered rounds in your home and try to be aware of what is down range from you when you pull that trigger.

Ive been saying this forever but guns really arent that dangerous when you look at the numbers compared to other things. No one even thinks about how much danger they be in when driving to and from work. If you are going to die in an accident the odds are way in favor of it being in your car. My biggest beef with anti gun folks is that instead of logic most of they arguments are emotional. Then you out logic them they just say well its an out dated law, your a redneck or you must have a small penis.

[Zanchief]

My biggest beef with anti gun folks is that instead of logic most of they arguments are emotional.

This is funny to me since all your arguments are always based on emotion. Why are you always saying I'm wrong because I'm a pussy when it has all to do with emotions. Anti-gun folk are all about stats and logic. You just counter with "I don't want some crackhead fucking with my shit, no matter the cost". When that dude nearly killed a girl with a metal rod, all your arguments were "imagine that girl had an uzi in her jacket and imagine the guy behind the counter was your 10 month old daughter." You always make a lame plea to emotion.

Here are a few facts for you. Home break-ins are very rare. It's something people like to talk about because it's scary, but that shit almost never happens and when it does, it's almost never violent. If you remove the times where it happens because you are targeted beforehand the numbers drop pretty close to zero. The chances of you deterring any crime with a gun are far lower then the chances of you causing harm to you or someone innocent.

That has no baring on the dangers of driving to work, owning a swimming pool, or anything else. If you simply own a gun to protect your home, you are actually doing yourself a disservice by putting yourself and your loved ones in more harm.

[Spazz]

Funny I got a house full of guns and no one has been kilt. Maybe im not using them correctly. Far as break ins go It happens every day round here.Assault is pretty common in these parts as well. Pretty high up on my list of fears is coming from wherever and walking in on someone.

The world is an ugly place sometimes and just because you dont see it doesnt make it so.

The facts are that most gun crime has a lot to do with dope and the war on drugs. Most gun owners are pretty law abiding folk. When you compare % of gun deaths to other every day items they start to look a whole lot safer.

When you talk about crime and violence its all hypothetical and you have nothing to tie your opinion to reality which is the reason I keep telling you that you dont have a fucking clue what your talking about. All you know of it is what you have read. What crime have you ever been the victim of ? When was the last time you ended up in a situation where you feeling like you might be in danger from another human being ?

[Zanchief]

That entire post is yet another emotional plea. Thank you for proving my point.

[Spazz]

What part of what I said isnt rooted in reality playboy ?

[Harrison]

My biggest beef with anti gun folks is that instead of logic most of they arguments are emotional.

This is funny to me since all your arguments are always based on emotion. Why are you always saying I'm wrong because I'm a pussy when it has all to do with emotions. Anti-gun folk are all about stats and logic. You just counter with "I don't want some crackhead fucking with my shit, no matter the cost". When that dude nearly killed a girl with a metal rod, all your arguments were "imagine that girl had an uzi in her jacket and imagine the guy behind the counter was your 10 month old daughter." You always make a lame plea to emotion.

Here are a few facts for you. Home break-ins are very rare. It's something people like to talk about because it's scary, but that shit almost never happens and when it does, it's almost never violent. If you remove the times where it happens because you are targeted beforehand the numbers drop pretty close to zero. The chances of you deterring any crime with a gun are far lower then the chances of you causing harm to you or someone innocent.

That has no baring on the dangers of driving to work, owning a swimming pool, or anything else. If you simply own a gun to protect your home, you are actually doing yourself a disservice by putting yourself and your loved ones in more harm.

Lol must be nice to live in candyland and never have to worry about real world problems such as this

[Lyion]

Break ins are extremely rare, more so if you live in a somewhat decent neighborhood.

People who have guns for defense generally have them because they *like* guns and/or are paranoid. They are ineffective for home defense. Bubba with his 500 dollar shotgun in the closet likely has not spent the 150 dollars to alarm every opening in his house which is far more proactive and helpful for actual defense.

Generally home invasion occurs by someone who is an acquaintance. Ad hoc break ins in normal middle class neighborhoods are next to non-existent, and guns are not at all a deterrent.

[Arlos]

Hell, you want a really big deterrent? Get a big dog or two. Pretty much any professional thief is likely to check out a place before they rob it, and if they see you have guard animals like that, they'll almost certainly move on to someone easier. If a professional thief wants to get into your house, he's GOING to get in. The thing is, there's shit-tons of targets out there, so if you make things more difficult for him, he'll move on and hit someone else, and who wants to face a couple 80-100lb angry dogs? WAY bigger a deterrent than simply owning a pistol or something.

As Lyion said, the media-hyped random violent home invasion where some drug-crazed idiot breaks into a random home or apartment intending to shoot up the place is an insanely rare occurrence. Just look at the crime stats. The incidence of accidental injuries and deaths from handguns in the home is FAR larger than the incidence of the kind of crime you are discussing, and instances where a "home defense weapon" STOPS such an attack are vastly rarer than that.

I used to live in a really bad area a while back (East Palo Alto, which was murder capital of the country for several years in a row while I was there, and bad enough that pizza places would refuse to deliver to the area), and I was never in any fear of the kind of crap you were talking about. Yeah, my place got robbed once, but it was because I was stupid, and left a window open because it was 100 degrees out, and I went to the store. While I was gone, someone pried it open the rest of the way and got in and stole a DVD player. That didn't make me want to get a gun, it made me feel like an idiot for leaving the window open, and that I really should move. Within a year, I had moved out and gone to a better area. No one is forcing you to live where you are. If it's bad, MOVE.

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

Yea Lyion, you're right. Break Ins are rare.