Racisms talk

[Gypsiyee]

can I just say that even as someone who clearly sees racial motivation behind it, I'm sick to death of hearing about the race issue because it's making short-sighted dips forget that an adult shot and killed an unarmed teenage kid? Wtf is wrong with people (including some of you here)? How is the argument of racism still more prevalant than the murder?

Hi, this isn't about a big mean man calling someone a nigger or an asshole throwing a gay kid into a locker. This is about a kid who was shot and killed. Don't be morons and get lost in the weeds of is it or is it not racist, because while the motivation may be appalling, the end result is still just as permanent as if the motivation wasn't appalling. First degree murder wouldn't be pursued here either way, so it doesn't matter. Whether or not Zimmerman is a racist prick is moot now. I think he is, someone else thinks he isn't. So if he isn't racist, I guess we're done here! He's excused from killing the kid. And if he is racist, we should push harder because since it was racially motivated, Trayvon Martin is extra double-dead now so it's even worse! No. Stop arguing about stupid irrelevant shit.

are conservatives that deep in the closet about race that they'd throw gun rights under the bus before coming out? holy shit

holy shit indeed. I had to double check that sentence because for a second I couldn't wrap my head about that being Lyion's post >.< I think we just got Romneyed, yo.

[Lyion]

lyion, your comment that "the guy is hispanic and has no history of any sort of racism" is pretty hilarious. are you really implying that hispanic people are unable to harbor racism against black people? if that's the case then holy shit we gotta isolate that gene sequence pronto!!! besides, if you want to get technical, "hispanic" is not an individual race - it is actually considered a subset of caucasian.

I'm talking about an individual, not about a group unlike some. The media is trying to label him white and incite this into a black vs white thing. They are doctoring tapes and castigating the guy. He is not white, anymore than Obama is white. I've never heard the term white hispanic before and I grew up in San Diego.

My simple point is there is no history of racism from this fellow, and no indication of it on the 911 calls. I think his actions would have been the same regardless of the kid's race if he spotted a guy in a hoodie casing his neighborhood. I certainly could be mistaken, but his history seems to indicate he is not a racist

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2 ... -to-fox-5/

A man who describes himself as one of George Zimmerman's closest friends tells FOX 5 he is not surprised Zimmerman is being charged because of the public pressure.

Anthony Woodson is clear that he is not trying to defend the shooting of Trayvon Martin, but he is certain that Zimmerman is not a racist.

Woodson, who is black, said Zimmerman offered Woodson a place to live in Florida when he fell on hard times and the two have known each other for years.

More citations:

http://newsone.com/1956555/joe-oliver-i ... ot-racist/

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism ... -no-racism

There is no proof the guy is, and the fact he was close friends with and mentored blacks tends to lend to the idea he is not.

My point about this being a gun issue remains. I'm also confused about the previous posts about gun rights. I'm anti second amendment and anti any gun rights . I'd outlaw them all. My position on that has not changed since day 1 of posting here and for a long time before that, anymore than my position that the death penalty should be abolished likewise has not changed. I cheered when CT banned it. Ask Spazz about the gun issue as we've argued a lot.

[Zanchief]

Sounds like you have an axe to grind with CNN and that's clouding your judgment here, Lyion. Doctored tapes, trying to convince us he's white? The first day I heard about this case, I turned to CNN and they were pretty clear about him being Hispanic. Sounds like someone else is doctoring some facts for his own agenda.

Casing houses? How does someone look like their casing houses? By walking down the street while black and hooded? I'm sure if I was walking down the street looking around while I walk (which I do all the time) I would have a fight instigated against me by batman over there. If there was nothing more then racial profiling (black people in the area were committing crimes, so this black kid is a suspect) that is racism. That's the best case scenario here, Lyion.

[Lyion]

Zanchief, NBC doctored their Zimmerman 911 tapes. It's been all over the news and they fired their Today show producer over it.

NBC, ABC, PBS, etc have been calling Zimmerman 'white' due to his father being white. That's pretty illogical and the point is solely race baiting to make it a white vs black thing. Is Obama likewise white?

The casing houses is what was reported by Zimmerman. The neighborhood there also had a high crime rate, I believe.

[Gypsiyee]

Zanchief, NBC doctored their Zimmerman 911 tapes. It's been all over the news and they fired their Today show producer over it.

Well, let's be totally fair here. The Today show screwed up, certainly. I don't agree with what they did. But the term doctored tends to imply significant changes, altering content, etc, and that I'm aware, that's quite a bit more sinister than it actually was. To my knowledge, the extent of it was them clipping out a question from the dispatcher as to what race Martin was.

Bad form by the Today show portraying him out of context to fuel the race fire, but imo it doesn't change much (unless your entire concern with the case is race... and I'm about to go all tourette's omgwtfbbqstfuysmf on that)

And I'm still confused about the high crime rate thing. Wasn't it a gated community or am I mistaken? Gated communities don't usually lend to a high crime rate as a general rule.

[Lyion]

We'll have to disagree then. Editing a 9/11 call to make an innocent answer to a question look like an overt racist remark seems pretty bad to me.

Anyone who doesn't know, check it out:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625 ... 87048.html

Doctored fits perfectly.

In regards to crime:

crime statistics in Sanford, Florida: According to neigborhoodscout.com, Sanford has a crime index of 3 out of 100 (100 being safest), which is one of the highest crime rates in America “compared to all communities of all sizes — from the smallest towns to the very largest cities".

A 'gated' community doesn't really mean much. The security consisted of a neighborhood watch. I'll look for a citation, but there was a lot of crime reported in that area.

[ClakarEQ]

Let me explain real simple where the racism comes from in real simple words so it is clear to you.

To assume that a black kid in a hoodie is up to no good from the get go is the racist part.

Sorry, but that is bullshit.

Racism is someone who thinks they are better than another based on race.

To assume that a black kid in a hoodie is up to no good from the get go when what you've been told is a "black guy" has been seen doing BnE in the community, is not racist. Your sentence would be correct, and NOT bullshit, IF, no prior information had been provided regarding the targeted "person".

How about this, so, what all you race card folks are saying, is that all the black folks that beat up that white guy and took his clothes in Baltimore, they're all racists, right? I don't buy that either. They were just a bunch of assholes and thugs, not racists.

You are also saying that any criminal activity that takes place where the races are different, are driven by racism? Seriously, that is all sorts of fucked up . If you think that statement is wrong, then show me one example where I can't show it was racially motivated LOL.

Zan, I was saying that in this case, you will not be able to provide any facts to show this was a racially motivted crime. Zimmer should be jailed, not because he shot a black kid, but becase he shot another person. This is not about race and I've yet to read or hear anything to show that it was.

To be 100% clear though, Zimmer should go to jail for killing a person, because the means did not remotely justify the ends! Just know the law is on Zimmer's side.

[Tossica]

I think you are ignoring the fact that if the kid was not black, he would not have been "suspicious" and not be dead.

And hell yes, the fuckheads that beat and robbed that dude did it because he was white.

[ClakarEQ]

I think you are ignoring the fact that if the kid was not black, he would not have been "suspicious" and not be dead.

And hell yes, the fuckheads that beat and robbed that dude did it because he was white.

I'm not ignoring that fact, it's just that, a fact. If Zimmer was told that a white guy was seen in the area doing BnE then would you still claim racism, a Hispanic against a white? And I suppose if Tray. was Hispanic, well, hmm, I guess that's not racism?

He followed Tray because that is what he was supposed to do UP UNTIL, 911 said stay the fuck back, That and ONLY that will land his butt in jail, otherwise, zimmer is golden.

As for that Baltimore bit, sure I think he was getting picked on because you've got a white boy amongst a gaggle of black folks. I didn't see anything all that bad until the ONE black guy cold cocked him in the face and knocked him out, THAT guy IMO would be in the racist category, the others, they're the vultures that took and stole when the opportunity became available, but racist, not so sure. I could have seem that same bunch do that same thing if it would have been a black boy amongst a gaggle of black folks.

[Tossica]

Listen to what you are saying, man. Someone saying they saw a black man commit a crime in a neighborhood does not give you the right to chase down every black man you see. If the kid was committing a crime, it's one thing. Just BEING BLACK does not make you suspicious.

[Lyion]

People, especially in high crime neighborhoods, do profile, though. It's unfortunate but a fact of life.

I would argue profiling is not necessarily racism, although it is definitely wrong. Everyone has their preconceived notions.

[Tikker]

.

[brinstar]

He is not white, anymore than Obama is white. I've never heard the term white hispanic before and I grew up in San Diego.

dude what the fuck, i didn't just make that shit up:

As of 2010, 50.5 million or 16.3% of Americans were ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 26.7 million or 53% were White.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hisp ... _Americans

if you think "white hispanic" doesn't make a ton of sense i won't spend much time arguing with you (it's one of the weird things about being a gov't employee - that and recording arab-americans' race as "unknown") but it's not just some fuckin thing ol' brinstar made up



PS i retract gun rights accusations made earlier, though you must understand how rare a libertarian-leaning conservative who gives no shit about the 2nd amendment is in modern america

[Gypsiyee]

We'll have to disagree then. Editing a 9/11 call to make an innocent answer to a question look like an overt racist remark seems pretty bad to me.

Well sure it's bad, I agree with you. As I said, it was dishonest journalism and bad form.. but again, saying 'he looks black' wasn't even the most racist thing *I* heard him say on the call, and really it's such a non-factor (or at least it should be) at the end of the day. Hearing the dispatcher doesn't impact my view of the events that transpired. It doesn't lessen my view that Zimmerman's motives were likely racially driven, and it doesn't change that whether or not it was racially driven is just so inconsequential when compared to the larger picture of what happened. I don't care if he has a confederate flag hanging in his living room or white robes in his closet. Don't really care if he makes it a point to meet weekly and sit around a fire singing We Shall Overcome with every black person he knows. One extreme or the other or somewhere in the middle, he still shot and killed an unarmed--and underage--person, and that's what matters here.

I've tried putting myself in the shoes of both parties, and no matter how many times I do it I can't ever understand how Zimmerman came to the conclusion of such an extreme resolution to whatever problem there may have been.

Taking race completely out of the equation.. if I was being followed, I just might reach a point where I turn around and snap and start wailing on someone. People respond differently when they feel threatened, and being followed certainly feels threatening to most people. Worst case scenario, Trayvon was a total dick of a kid and was casing houses... worst case scenario, after being followed he provokes Zimmerman into confrontation and then beats the snot out of him. So worst case, he's not exactly a model human being and will eventually find himself in a jumpsuit... and still, he was unarmed, so even if he was a total pile of shit in this situation he is the victim.

But.. if I was a neighborhood watch captain wary of the crime rate and nervous about someone I thought was suspicious, there's simply no scenario that would make me defy all logic, common sense, or basic knowledge that we're taught from grade school about stranger danger that would prompt me to follow someone, especially when I'd I'd already called for help, then let it escalate to the point of physical confrontation. Even if I did lose all of my common sense in the adrenaline rush of the moment, I can't possibly imagine getting to a point where I'd find the need to shoot someone who's fighting me with fists even if they're beating the shit out of me. If I'm self appointed captain of the neighborhood watch and take that post seriously, I'm at least taking some basic self defense classes if I ever think something may come to blows so that if someone starts punching my face in I can at least respond in kind and defend myself as efficiently as possible.

I just can't get on board with this guy even when I try to tell myself he's wonderful and well-intentioned and Martin was just someone who needed to be expunged from the gene pool.

crime statistics in Sanford, Florida: According to neigborhoodscout.com, Sanford has a crime index of 3 out of 100 (100 being safest), which is one of the highest crime rates in America “compared to all communities of all sizes — from the smallest towns to the very largest cities".

A 'gated' community doesn't really mean much. The security consisted of a neighborhood watch. I'll look for a citation, but there was a lot of crime reported in that area.

Well, okay, fair enough. But the whole purpose of a gated community is to offer an extra layer of security. Of course, that layer isn't invincible nor does it guarantee safety or anything like that, but usually it's a fairly safe assumption that gated communities aren't as crime-addled as their non-gated counterparts.

Honestly, I can't imagine where 3/100 comes from. I mean, of course I don't live there and I can't speak personally for their crime rate, but I live an hour and a half away.. I've been to and through Sanford several times and it's nowhere near what I'd personally think would fall in that low of a range. It's no Pleasantville, but really. 3/100 strikes would make me think of areas that Spazz and Tuggan talk about. I feel a lot safer in Sanford than I do 2 miles outside of NAS JAX on the westside of town.

[Reynaldo]

Bumpitty bump...

Have to say I'm very interested in the outcome of this one. So many overtones going on in the trial ranging from gun control to racism/hate crimes.

Under what the law says, I don't think the dude will/should go to jail or anything, but I could definitely see some changes to the laws either elevating the stature of the 911 dispatch so that if you go against what they say it will be contradicting a police officer (which it's currently not).

I'm legitimately concerned though as a Florida resident relatively close to where it went down that if he's NOT found guilty, things could get a little batshit crazy around here since you know, when you don't get your way the best thing to do is riot and break shit.

[Spazz]

The guy broke every rule of carrying a fire arm and you dont think hes guilty of anything? He started a confrontation stalked a kid in the dark and left a dead body on the ground he deserves a god damned needle in his arm but im pretty sure hell get manslaughter of some type. I cant even talk about this case in a civil way cuz it really pisses me off.

[Kaemon]

Who's rule did he break? Your rule? He didn't break Florida law at the time. That's what matters.
The law sucks, and I'm against it and I'm against you owning a firearm as well. But the law is the law and he was within his right, as you are.

Let me put it in your terms "nigga". Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Go internet rage on that why don't you.

[Reynaldo]

I think he's very guilty of extremely poor judgement in the way he handled himself in the situation.

But as far as pure law goes, or at least the laws in place at the time....I don't believe he broke any.

That's why I say it will be interesting to see what verdict they come up with. I would guess a not guilty of murder but guilty of wrongful death, or whatever it was that OJ got.

[ClakarEQ]

I'll be shocked if he goes to jail. I don't know what law he actually broke because disobeying a 911 person a law break does not make. Race was NEVER an issue until the PARENTS brought it up. This would never have even gotten this far if it was black on black or white on white crime even if 100% of all things remained the same. The parents are the racists here, not Zimmer.

Bad choices, poor judgement won't put him in jail.

[Drem]

You people are insane. He murdered a kid because he was black and walking down the street. Pretty sure murder/hate crime is against the law

[Drem]

That kid should be alive right now. Thanks, paranoid racist vigilante justice

[Spazz]

Yea im not going to rage. Im going to say the law he broke is murder. How you can argue that he didnt do anything wrong is beyond me. He stalked and then shot a teenager.

[Drem]

Between what this guy said before he murdered an unarmed teenager, what he said in interviews after it (he doesn't regret what he did because it was all "part of God's plan"), and the way his defense opened the trial (with a knock knock joke), i think anyone supporting this guy is a lunatic. He shot that kid because he wanted to

[Reynaldo]

Interesting that you guys were "rooting for" the Christopher Donner guy who actually was premeditating and murdering people.

This guy only pulled the trigger when he was on the ground getting his face and head smashed in. If he was chilling in a tree with a sniper rifle waiting for the kid to walk past then I could get on board with the murder angle.

Once you remove emotion from the equation, I don't see how it can be anything but self defense/standing your ground under the law that is in place.

I think we can ALL agree that Zimms is a freaking idiot for his actions though that led up to it, but none of those actions were breaking any laws....

[Arlos]

If you pick a fight with someone, start losing, pull out a gun and shoot him, are you "standing your ground?" I don't think so. If Treyvon had initiated the conflict with Zimmerman, then I could see an argument. However, Zimmerman stalked the kid, picked the fight to begin with, then when he started losing he shot the kid? No, I don't think any sort of "stand your ground" law would cover that sort of situation.

In this case what the prosecutors need to show is intent to create a conflict situation. That's clearly shown by the 911 calls earlier, and the fact that Zimmerman was chasing Treyvon up and down the block. Zimmerman wasn't minding his own business when he was suddenly assaulted and defended himself. We know that for an absolute fact. He initiated the conflict, stalked Treyvon, and then provoked the fight. Could it not be argued that had Treyvon had a gun and shot Zimmerman that HE would have been "standing his ground" and protecting himself from this crazy guy who was chasing him down the street for no reason? If he could have done that, why can't he defend himself physically instead? He did so, was winning, and Zimmerman shot him.

So yeah, I think Zimmerman gets convicted for murder. Just too much evidence showing that he PUT himself in that situation, was the aggressor, and would have had no reason to fear for his life or "stand his ground" if he didn't initiate the conflict to begin with.

-Arlos

PS. You didn't see me supporting Donner, did you?