Mitt yesterday on Libya

[Gypsiyee]

So, I was waiting to get my badge renewed yesterday when Romney's remarks came on yesterday.. I was sitting there with a very republican co-worker, and though I try to keep political comments outside of the workplace, I couldn't help but to comment about my disgust as I watched this man take a very sad situation for which the country should be unified and use it as a divisive political issue and attack the president by completely mischaracterizing a comment the embassy made. And as he walked off from the comments with a pompous smirk on his face, I muttered out loud "that man is no president."

My co-worker was offended by my comments and seemingly agreed with his use of the tragedy for political gain, but it would appear I wasn't alone in my disgust. As I read more and more responses to the statement, it would seem that consensus--and not just on the left--is close to my initial reaction.. appalling behavior, completely inappropriate and disrespectful to those we lost in the attack.

Did you guys watch it? What was your take?

[Lyion]

I had no problems with what the embassy did, what Obama said, or what Romney said. I have not heard of anyone who I know who is moderate or conservative having any issues with what Romney said. Most agree with it, but moreso due to politics, just like you coming here in the liberal echo chamber looking for the same.

I think whatever Romney had said would have been wrong in your eyes, since you disagree with his politics so ferociously.

A different perspective for you, Gyp:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 15430.html

They don't fear us, and they don't respect us. That's the only message you can take away from an Egyptian mob's attack on the U.S. Embassy in Cairo during which rioters scaled embassy walls and tore down the American flag on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. President Barack Obama helped ease out Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak -- a dictator, yes, but also an ally -- to facilitate the Arab Spring, and this is the thanks America gets.

Sadly, a separate assault on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, that took the life of Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other diplomatic staffers presents a different lesson. Despite ample U.S. military assistance, Libya's civil war isn't over. Stevens' brave support of Libyans' efforts to overthrow strongman Moammar Gadhafi likely made him a target.

"How could this happen in a country we helped liberate, in a city we helped save from destruction?" Secretary of State Hillary Clinton asked. She placed the responsibility on "a small and savage group," not on "the people or government of Libya."

Over time, Americans will learn more about what happened and why. Already, the attacks are playing a part in presidential campaign politics.

As protesters gathered outside the U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Tuesday, the embassy released a statement that condemned "continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims." It was a salvo against Quran-burning preacher Terry Jones and the movie "The Innocence of Muslims," which deliberately lampoons Prophet Muhammad.

After protesters scaled the embassy walls, some conservatives (unaware of the timing of the statement's release) slammed diplomats for issuing an excuse of sorts for those who had attacked a U.S. facility.

The Obama administration also seemed to think the embassy had struck the wrong note. The administration disavowed the embassy's statement.

GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney then released a statement in which he asserted that it was "disgraceful that the Obama Administration's first response was not to condemn attacks ... but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks." On Wednesday, after learning of Stevens' death, Romney hit Obama for sending "mixed messages."

Then the media spent the morning kicking Romney for jumping the gun as pundits liberally blamed preacher Jones and the movie-makers for inciting violence in Africa.

Now it seems the critics may have jumped the gun. Al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahri had released a video calling on Islamists to avenge the death of a Libyan-born cleric killed in a U.S. drone attack. Intelligence officials believe the Benghazi attack was planned well in advance.

Maybe it's not a coincidence that mobs attacked two U.S. delegations on the same day. And isn't it time that the experts asked whether al-Qaida sympathizers were looking for an excuse for a 9/11 rampage? So why give them cover by blaming crazy talkers such as Terry Jones?

[Gypsiyee]

Well you're in dick mode awfully early this morning, Lyion, have you had your coffee yet? I've hardly posted recently, much less posted anything that would warrant such a jackhole response.

If you haven't heard of anyone having a problem with it, I presume you haven't checked the news since yesterday.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/romn ... ction.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... ya-attack/

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/201 ... story.html

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/ ... 861258.php

http://seattletimes.com/html/edcetera/2 ... bassy.html

http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomber ... 860134.php

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... nt-page-4/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard ... a-strategy

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 24aa777268

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ests-death

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-1 ... egypt.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/rom ... -1.1157485

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics ... dly/56784/

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... le/262288/

Should I keep going, or would you like to continue your douchebag stance that I'm just some deluded liberal asshole fabricating criticism that doesn't exist? Please go ahead and show me something that agrees with your statement that "most agree with it."

And for the record, I don't 'disagree with his politics so ferociously.' I'm not sure anyone could agree or disagree with him with any level of ferocity since he's been on every side of every issue over his political career.

Congrats on douching up the thread a thread asking for opinion on a political move with unwarranted personal attacks, though. Very grown up of you.

(edit: bravo on editing your dickishness prior to my post, but I don't rescind anything I said since I saw it before you edited.)

[Gypsiyee]

Since I watched the entire response, let me post the transcript and put into context what I found appalling..the statements that especially caught my attention as inappropriate in relation to the timing of events are in red. Let me clarify that I am not speaking of Romney's initial statement. I'm speaking to his interview yesterday. It looks like the article you posted focuses mostly on the initial statement?

ROMNEY: Good morning. Americans woke up this morning with -- with tragic news and felt heavy hearts as they considered that individuals who have served in our diplomatic corps were brutally murdered across the world.

This attack on American individuals and embassies is outrageous, it’s disgusting, it -- it breaks the hearts of all of us who think of these people who have served during their lives the cause of freedom and justice and honor.

We -- we mourn their loss and join together in prayer that the spirit of the Almighty might comfort the families of those who have been so brutally slain.

Four diplomats lost their life, including the U.S. ambassador, J. Christopher Stevens, in the attack on our embassy at Benghazi, Libya. And of course with these words I extend my condolences to the grieving loved ones who have left behind, as a result of these who have lost their lives in the service of our nation.

And I know that the people across America are grateful for their service. And we mourn their sacrifice.

America will not tolerate attacks against our citizens and against our embassies. We’ll defend also our constitutional rights of speech and assembly and religion.

We have confidence in our cause in America. We respect our Constitution. We stand for the principles our Constitution protects. We encourage other nations to understand and respect the principles of our Constitution, because we recognize that these principles are the ultimate source of freedom for individuals around the world.

right here, unprompted, is initially where he uses it to take a jab at the administration for political purposes.

I also believe the administration was wrong to stand by a statement sympathizing with those who had breached our embassy in Egypt, instead of condemning their actions. It’s never too early for the United States government to condemn attacks on Americans and to defend our values.

The White House distanced itself last night from the statement, saying it wasn’t cleared by Washington. That reflects the mixed signals they’re sending to the world.

The attacks in Libya and Egypt underscore that the world remains a dangerous place and that American leadership is still sorely needed. In the face of this violence, American cannot shrink from the responsibility to lead. American leadership is necessary to ensure that events in the region don’t spin out of control. We cannot hesitate to use our influence in the region to support those who share our values and our interests.

Over the last several years, we’ve stood witness to an Arab spring that presents an opportunity for a more peaceful and prosperous, but also poses the potential for peril if the forces of extremism and violence are allowed to control the course of events. We must strive to ensure that the Arab spring does not become an Arab winter. With that, I’m happy to take any questions you may have.

Steve?

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

ROMNEY: I -- the embassy in Cairo put out a statement after their grounds had been breached. Protesters were inside the grounds. They reiterated that statement after the breach.

ROMNEY: I think it’s a -- a -- a terrible course to -- for America to -- to stand in apology for our values. That instead, when our grounds are being attacked and being breached, that the first response of the United States must be outrage at the breach of the sovereignty of our nation.

An apology for America’s values is never the right course.

I saw no apology in the statements, so I don't understand this remark. Best synopsis of events/statements I could find: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... ments.html

Reporter then calls him out.. and more back and forth I find reprehensible follows:

QUESTION: Governor Romney, do you think, though, coming so soon after the event really has unfolded overnight was appropriate, to be weighing in on this as this crisis is unfolding in real time?

ROMNEY: The White House also issued a statement saying it tried to distance itself from those comments and said they were not reflective of their views. I had the exact same reaction. These views were inappropriate. They were the wrong course to take when our embassy has been breached by protesters. The first response should not be to say, “Yes, we stand by our comments that -- that suggest that there’s something wrong with the right of free speech.”

QUESTION: So what did the White House do wrong, then, Governor Romney, if (inaudible) put out a statement saying (inaudible).

ROMNEY: It’s their administration. Their administration spoke. The president takes responsibility not just for the words that come from his mouth, but also from the words that come from his ambassadors from his administration, from his embassies, from his State Department.

They clearly -- they clearly sent mixed messages to the world and the statement that came from the administration and the embassy is the administration. The statement that came from the administration was -- was a statement which is akin to apology and I think was a -- a severe miscalculation.

QUESTION: Governor, some are...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (inaudible) talk about mixed signals, (inaudible) mixed signal when you criticize the administration (inaudible).

ROMNEY: We are having -- we have a campaign for presidency of the United States that are speaking about the different courses we would each take with regards to the challenges that the world faces. The president and I, for instance, have differences of opinion with regards to Israel and our policies there; with regards to Iran; with regards to Afghanistan; with regards to Syria.

We have many places of distinction and differences. We join together in the condemnation of the attacks on American embassies and the loss of American life, and join in the sympathy for these people. But it’s also important for me, just as it was for the White House last night, by the way, to say that the statements were inappropriate, and in my -- in my view, a -- a disgraceful statement on the part of our administration to apologize for American values.

QUESTION: Governor, some people have said that you jumped the gun a little in putting that statement out last night, and that you should have waited until more details were available. Do you regret having that statement come out so early before we learned about all the things that were happening?

ROMNEY: I don’t think we -- we ever hesitate when we see something which is a violation of our principles. We express immediately when we feel that the president and his administration have done something which is inconsistent with the principles of America. Simply put, having an embassy which is -- has been breached and has protesters on its grounds, having violated the sovereignty of the United States, having that embassy reiterate a statement effectively apologizing for the right of free speech is not the right course for an administration.

QUESTION: Governor Romney, if you had known -- if you had known last night that the ambassador had died, and obviously I’m gathering you did not know...

ROMNEY: Well, that came -- that came later.

QUESTION: ... right. If you had known that the ambassador had died, would you have issued...

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: I’m not -- I’m not going to take hypotheticals about what would have been known what and so forth. I -- we responded last night to the events that happened in Egypt.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: (inaudible)

ROMNEY: I think President Obama has -- has demonstrated a -- a lack of clarity as to a foreign policy. My foreign policy has three fundamental branches.

ROMNEY: First, confidence in our cause, a recognition that the principles America was based upon are something we shrink from or apologize for; that we stand for that principles.

The second is clarity in our purpose, which is that when we have a foreign policy objective, we describe it honestly and clearly to the American people, to Congress and to the people of the world.

And number three, is resolve in our might: that in those rare circumstances -- those rare circumstances where we decide it’s essential for us to apply military might, that we do so with overwhelming force, that we do so in the clarity of a mission, understanding the nature of the U.S. interest involved, understanding when the mission will be complete, what will be left when it is -- what will be left behind us when that mission has -- has been -- has been terminated.

These elements I believe are essential to our foreign policy and I haven’t seen them from the president.

As I’ve watched -- as I’ve watched over the past three and a half years, the president has had some successes. He’s had some failures. It’s a hit-or-miss approach, but it has not been based upon sound foreign policy.

(I don't disagree with the below because the reporter specifically prompted him to discern between he and Pres. Obama.)

QUESTION: How specifically, Governor Romney, would President Romney have handled this situation differently than President Obama? You (ph) spoke out before midnight when all the facts were known. How would you have handled this differently than the president did?

ROMNEY: I spoke out when the key fact that I referred to was known, which was that the Embassy of the United States issued what appeared to be an apology for American principles. That was a mistake. And I believe that when a mistake is made of that significance, you speak out.

He then walked off stage with a big smirk on his face. I thought the entire thing was a debacle, and it has nothing to do with me being a liberal. I thought it was inappropriate politicizing of a tragic event.

[Trielelvan]

[Lyion]

Good morning to you, too. What I said was people I know didn't have any issues. I could link a gaggle of articles reinforcing my point of view, but why waste my time since you hated Romney yesterday and you'll hate him tomorrow and take these things personally. What Romney said was fine. I'm sure you had no issues with Obama politicizing Iraq and the death of American Soldiers in 2008 because it was for your boy. Obama was right in 2008. Romney is right today.

Keep trolling for articles to reinforce your viewpoint, MInd.. er Gyp. I'm sure the echo chamber you seek will respond shortly. It appears already to have started.

[Zanchief]

What I said was people I know didn't have any issues.

I'm sure the echo chamber you seek will respond shortly.

Add them up.

[Gypsiyee]

I don't think the word troll means what you think it means.

My post: opinion of remarks with substantiation from articles indicating the same and inquiry as to how others on this board felt about the remarks.

Your post: trolling douchebaggery for the sake of douchebaggery while comparing me to Mindia as an insult simply because I disagree with you.

Time to find your big boy britches, sir. I think you've misplaced them. GTFO my thread if you have nothing to add but pettiness and stupid teenage remarks like "hurr, betcha didn't mind when it was your boy."

[Lyion]

Bye. See you in a week when your ban is up. A tad too personal. Save it for Mindia next time.

-Lyion

[Spazz]

You banned gyps ? Thats fucked up if ya did.

[Jay]

So Mindia gets away with the textual diarrhea that he sharts onto NT but soon as Gyps calls you out on your bullshit she gets a ban? You really are a giant piece of shit Lyion. Feel free to toss a ban my way too you smug asshat.

[Spazz]

So Mindia gets away with the textual diarrhea that he sharts onto NT but soon as Gyps calls you out of your bullshit she gets a ban?

This right here.

[Lyion]

Except Minda has been temp banned twice before by me and I was the one who permabanned him a few years back for behavior pretty similar to this thread. She was right and I was in a piss poor mood, and I'm sorry if you don't feel Gyp went apeshit in this thread, but I did. This type of shit might be why everyone with a differing opinion than the three posters has left the board. She's unbanned now.

[Menelvir]

Or they might leaving be because they see the enactment of ban policies such as this one as lopsided and vindictive. (okay, that's doubtful, but...)

A reasonable response to a post in which you're personally attacked would be a post in which you condemn the attacker, or attack them back in kind. Or who knows... Maybe even ignore them or stay out of the thread -- no high road here, huh?

This response was more like pulling out a grenade because she hit you with a pea-shooter.

[Gypsiyee]

You can go ahead and permanently ban me. You attacked this morning unprompted and edited your post then got on your high horse because I responded in kind. Of course you don't have to admit that since no one saw it.

Here's your reason to ban me: the reason people leave this board are dumb shits like you who are dangerous to the world because you're just reasoned enough to make yourself sound like a logical and intelligent person. Fuck you, you arrogant prick of an excuse for a person, in flesh or pixel. You're a fucking joke.

Hows that for apeshit, cockholster?

Enjoy being master of an Internet board of 7 people.. well, actually, make that 6.

[Jay]

She stated her opinion respectfully. She gave an account of her own experience then she asked how you (we) felt about it. Then:

just like you coming here in the liberal echo chamber looking for the same.

I think whatever Romney had said would have been wrong in your eyes, since you disagree with his politics so ferociously.

...shots fired.

How do you expect anyone to respond to this provocation? This has nothing to do with left or right. This has everything to do with being a respectful human being and not throwing your preconceived notions on people right from the get go. You can easily stand tall and rep your side of the argument without making assumptions about the person you are responding to.

NT has a history of differing opinions like most communities. I don't believe that has anything to do with what you're suggesting as a reason some people have left the board. Not too long ago I had a good debate with Brin and Triel about how I disagreed with the Occupy movement as I feel it is a large waste of resources and disruptive to commerce. We respectfully still disagree on that and I still highly respect them today as much as I did before we had our debate. On the opposite extreme, I highly dislike the way you and Zan approach any argument. It turns into personal attacks and you guys insulting the intelligence of anyone who dares to think any different than you 2. Again, not an issue of left or right, especially since I happen to agree with most of what Zan says. I just hate the way he treats people who don't, and the same applies to you.

Learn to separate beliefs from people dude. Attack the belief, not the person.

[leah]

aw, gyps, don't leave. :\

[Zanchief]

On the opposite extreme, I highly dislike the way you and Zan approach any argument. It turns into personal attacks and you guys insulting the intelligence of anyone who dares to think any different than you 2. Again, not an issue of left or right, especially since I happen to agree with most of what Zan says. I just hate the way he treats people who don't, and the same applies to you.

What's with this hand holding attitude of yours lately. How can you respect someones opinion that is completely different from your own? By the very nature of belief, you must think they're wrong. Acting like their opinion is valid when you yourself believe them to be wrong is simply a promotion of ignorance.

Also...Jay, lighten up.

[araby]

The reports I saw and read said that they felt romney's comments were soft on Obama. No one knows what they're talking about.

[Jay]

Hey do what you want. I have every right not to like you for it. Not like I can stop you and not like you care what I think so whats the use for you to tell me to lighten up?

It's really simple. Sample A: Hey, I disagree. I think you're wrong. Sample B: Hey I disagree. I feel this way about it. Sample C: Wrong but then again I wouldn't expect much from you idiot.

You guys are C.

[Lyion]

Well, I should not have banned Gyp as it was just her taking potshots at me, and for that I apologize. That was definitely wrong. Menelvir was right and I fixed my mistake.

I do find it interesting that my posts were so terrible, but these are fine by your opinion, Jay.

you're in dick mode awfully early this morning, Lyion, have you had your coffee yet?

I've hardly posted recently, much less posted anything that would warrant such a jackhole response.

Congrats on douching up the thread a thread asking for opinion on a political move with unwarranted personal attacks, though. Very grown up of you.

Your post: trolling douchebaggery for the sake of douchebaggery while comparing me to Mindia as an insult simply because I disagree with you.

Time to find your big boy britches, sir. I think you've misplaced them. GTFO my thread if you have nothing to add but pettiness and stupid teenage remarks like "hurr, betcha didn't mind when it was your boy."

In my opinion this entire thread was very Mindia-ish. I should have been content to point out posting a variety of sources from opinions that solely agree with one is exactly what he does. I also simply pointed out that those I've talked to have no issue with what Romney said, outside of my family members who are die-hard Dem Obama supporters and similar to Gyp hate the man. She ignored my question about Obama politicizing the deaths of soldiers to score points similar to what Romney is doing right now. She was too busy cutting and pasting.

The point remains whatever Romney did Gyp and others would blast him for. Posting New York Times links and stating this is proof is about as valid as me posting a Krauthammer video or New York Post article. This is the same New York Times that did a front page unsubstantiated story on a Mccain 'girlfriend' right before the election but could not be bothered to put the embassy attacks on the front page.

I need to just avoid these threads, to be honest. Real discussions are not to be had here.

[Zanchief]

Not like I can stop you and not like you care what I think so whats the use for you to tell me to lighten up?

Constructive criticism about your off putting attitude?

[Menelvir]

I guess I don't really see any of what Romney said as any worse than anything any other politician has said during a campaign season.

It is important to the way our system works that candidates from the two sides be as diametrically opposed as possible, and generate as much disdain for the other side as possible, because if they weren't and didn't, it would be boring and no one would pay it much heed.

I don't pay it much heed anyway, so I guess I'm not the intended target audience.

[Arlos]

Well, he claimed that the first response to being attacked was for them to apologize about american values. That's utter nonsense, and completely factually untrue.

1) The statement slamming the anti-islam video came out WELL before any protests happened. I see no problem with that press release, either. All it is stating is that America does NOT hate Islam, and we condemn religious bigotry.

2) He made the attack well before anything close to all the facts of what happened were in. From what I have read since, the attack on the Ben Ghazi compound was NOT a protest run wild, but was actually an organized terrorist attack.

3) Even when the facts DID come out, including the timing of the 1st missive, he repeated his attack, even though he now KNEW it wasn't true. (and even when he knew that the 1st message wasn't authorized at the White House to be sent in the first place).

It's ridiculous, and even multiple GOP members have been calling him out over it.

-Arlos

[Tossica]

Mitt Romney is a fucking douchebag.

The end.