it's not going anywhere

[Ganzo]

but the truly idiotic thing about the whole debate is that there exists a terribly easy way to reconcile evolution with creation: god caused evolution. if you are able to take it on faith alone that god created the universe, the cosmos, the galaxy, the sun, the planets, and the earth, its continents, seas, species, all the way down each individual organism's amazingly intricate physiology - let alone the miracle that is human consciousness - why is it so great a leap to imagine that He set into motion a sublimely nuanced system which would eventually result in our existence and consciousness?

It's not a hard concept, nor a leap that needs to be made. I don't see why people constantly assume that religion = opposing science. I consider myself very religious, yet I have never doubted evolution or any other aspects of science. When I see these arguments about the miracle of creation vs evolution, I always wonder why is it that people expect God to act in a way that defy the laws of nature. It reminds me of an on the Chasidic tale of a rabbi during a flood. He climbed on a roof to escape the water and a boat came by, with people yelling for him to get in the boat, but he refused saying that he was a saintly rabbi and God would save him. This has happened again when water reached the roof and again when water came up to his neck but he refused each boat with the same claim of expecting to be saved by God. Once he finally drowned and stood before God he asked "God I was a saintly man all my life, I followed all of the commandments and did nothing but pray and study bible. Why did you not save me?" and God replied "I have sent three boats for you".

[Lyion]

I can't consider life being so meaningless. I believe in a human soul, but I also think human nature actually goes against the Golden Rule. I don't think it matters if one is liberal or conservative, but I do find those with faith tend to actually get the Golden Rule and give and support others far more, although that is a huge generalization since everyone is flawed. I think there's a revulsion towards religion by those don't have a spiritual anchor and who stereotype it with the religious right and want to be their own personal jesus, and miss the philosophical point of fellowship and making the world here a better place. It's not about stories to scare four year olds, but wise ways to live better and spirituality.

I'm amused in thinking maybe the Buddhists have it right and our next incarnations shall be as small rodents or insects.

p.s. All Catholic schools teach evolution. It's been accepted by the church for quite some time. Not sure what your point is, Brin.

[Tossica]

How is life meaningless without buying in to dogma? I don't get that. I live, love, make an impression on others, etc just like anyone else. What happens in the "afterlife" is moot. The billions of people that have lived before us are all dead and whether they are all waiting up in heaven or not doesn't change anything since by the time anyone of us find out, we'll be dead too. Life goes on. People are born and then they die. Believing that something happens after you die doesn't change that. When you're dead, you're dead. All that's left is what people remember about you. Did you bring happiness to people around you or were you a prick? Will you be missed or is the world a better place without you?

[Lyion]

What happens in the "afterlife" is moot. Believing that something happens after you die doesn't change that. When you're dead, you're dead. All that's left is what people remember about you. Did you bring happiness to people around you or were you a prick? Will you be missed or is the world a better place without you?

I take it you are not for Pascal's Wager.

Religion is not for when one dies. It is for the here and now and to help one be a better person. I'm also curious if your morality, belief in the golden rule, and many other good qualities did not in some way come from your Mom's beliefs, Toss. It's my hope I can pass on those type of things to my kids, as well. I get the feeling a lot of those traits are being passed on from Grandma to your son, correct?

[Tossica]

What happens in the "afterlife" is moot. Believing that something happens after you die doesn't change that. When you're dead, you're dead. All that's left is what people remember about you. Did you bring happiness to people around you or were you a prick? Will you be missed or is the world a better place without you?

I take it you are not for Pascal's Wager.

Religion is not for when one dies. It is for the here and now and to help one be a better person. I'm also curious if your morality, belief in the golden rule, and many other good qualities did not in some way come from your Mom's beliefs, Toss. It's my hope I can pass on those type of things to my kids, as well. I get the feeling a lot of those traits are being passed on from Grandma to your son, correct?

My mom did not become religious until long after I was an adult. My morality came from when I was a young child. If my actions caused pain for someone else, I felt bad because I was able to empathize with that person and take on some of that pain. When my actions brought happiness to others, I felt good about myself. Without other people, there is no good or evil. If you live in isolation, nothing you do can be considered good or evil because your actions have no effect on anyone else. Morals are not something owned by those that claim themselves religious.

My son learned many of the same lessons very early on. Not through church but by how he was treated by others as a child and how he saw his parents treat each other and those around them.

[Zanchief]

The one thing I can never get passed when it comes to even the idea of God is how it implies that we are not responsible for the things we have done, good or bad, and that just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

We, as a society, have accomplished so much, and the religious types want to just pass all that off to God. No, it wasn’t God. It was us. Pat yourself on the back and take a bow. If I achieve any success in my life it won’t be Gods fault, it will be my own. Likewise if I fail, it will be my doing only.

It’s simply infantile to lavish praise on something or someone for things outside of their control. We did it. We put a man on the moon. We split the atom. We invented vaccines. God didn’t do it. Let’s give credit where credit is due.

[Ganzo]

The one thing I can never get passed when it comes to even the idea of God is how it implies that we are not responsible for the things we have done, good or bad, and that just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

Maybe that is how Christianity looks at it, but in my faith (Judaism) I am responsible for everything I do both good and the bad. When I thank God for my accomplishment it is not for Him doing it, but for Him giving me strength to do it.

[Lyion]

Nope, that's not how Christianity or Catholicism looks at it at all either. In fact, the reverse is true. Everything revolves around free will from day one and Adam & Eve, so not sure where you are getting your thoughts there.

The idea of selfless humility and working for a greater purpose is what is strived towards, Zanchief and that in itself is a good thing. Perhaps the label irritates you more?

[Arlos]

You don't need to believe in the judeo-christian theological constructs in order to believe in some sort of afterlife. Most other religions offer their own version. Pick one you like and follow that belief, if you wish to, or don't if you don't.

I have absolutely no issues with what I refer to as "in theory" Christianity. If you actually look at the stuff Jesus himself said, there's some really amazing stuff in there. Love each other, don't answer violence with violence, the mindless pursuit of money for its own sake leads to evil, blessed are the children and the meek, etc. What I have a problem with is the dogmatic churches that try and foist their own particular narrow prejudices and beliefs onto other people. Take sex-ed for kids. It's well documented that a quality sex ed class that emphasizes condoms, birth control, and gives them an idea of consequences of not using it has a huge impact in keeping down the number of pregnancies. Yet the religious zealots out there keep trying to force those classes to ignore science and good policy, and just teach abstinence. (As if sitting teenagers down in a class and telling them, "Sex is bad, mmmmkay? So don't do it, mmmmkay?" is going to do 1 iota to slow them down) Or yes, their efforts to get creationism taught in classrooms as if it had any validity as a scientific tool, etc.

What really gets my goat is the constant persecution complex many of the particularly fervent have, despite being the undisputed dominant religion in the country, where every single President & Vice president in history has been Christian, and no one, anywhere, is trying to tell people to not celebrate their own religion in their own homes. Yet we keep hearing about a "war on Christianity" or a "War on Christmas", and so on. You want to see ACTUAL religious persecution? Try having been Jewish in Russia under Stalin, or look at what the Catholic Church did to the Huguenots. I'm sorry, but someone at the mall saying "Happy Holidays" in December doesn't mean that there is an Atheist Hit Squad coming to your house to slaughter them in their beds for being religious.

As for Evolution, I've argued on here many times that it's not in the least bit inconsistent with the Bible. After all, Evolution just says that genetic mutation leads to changing traits, and if those traits are positive, the species that has those changes has an advantage, and thus will more successfully reproduce. Science can't say whether that A, G, C or T was changed by a cosmic ray passing through and doing it, or if the great Flying Spaghetti Monster reached down and touched it with His Noodly Appendage and did it directly. Of course, that question isn't a scientific one either, it's a theological oen, and thus unanswerable. We KNOW evolution is how the world works, but science can make no comment on if there is a "divine hand" at work guiding it. Just don't call that discussion "science."

-Arlos

[Zanchief]

When I thank God for my accomplishment it is not for Him doing it, but for Him giving me strength to do it.

Isnt' that the same thing? This is a semantic argument. Both Jews and Christians believe that Gods will decides all things. Free will is a copout. It’s one of the many contradictory ideas.

Its not God who gives you strength. You do that yourself.

[Tossica]

People want to feel like they are more important in the grand scheme of things than they really are. I understand the desire, I just don't buy it.

I'm content with my insignificance.

[Lyion]

Isnt' that the same thing? This is a semantic argument. Both Jews and Christians believe that Gods will decides all things. Free will is a copout. It’s one of the many contradictory ideas..

That get's pretty deep in the philosophical divide between a lot of branches of Christianity. Protestants follow Sole Fide, but I know Catholics do not, and never have.

Faith does indeed grant strength. If one considers their age the Old and New Testament hold up pretty well to the test of time in regards to contradictions.

Toss, I think the opposite is true. True people of faith often believe they are there to 'serve' and have a 'servants heart'.

[Menelvir]

I'm content with my insignificance.

I may be a bit odd, but I sometimes revel in my insignificance.

[Tossica]

Not odd at all. It would be "neat" if I was special and had some one on one relationship with some being that created everything. I am perfectly content with my minute existence in this amazing cosmos. The fact that I, we, the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, etc exist at all is mind boggling and humbling.

[Ganzo]

When I thank God for my accomplishment it is not for Him doing it, but for Him giving me strength to do it.

Isnt' that the same thing? This is a semantic argument. Both Jews and Christians believe that Gods will decides all things. Free will is a copout. It’s one of the many contradictory ideas.

Its not God who gives you strength. You do that yourself.

I disagree free will is the ultimate responsibility, since it means everything is up to me. What you are saying is true, it is very much possible to use your own strength to achieve everything. But it is also possible to allow God to give you that strength. It is up to you to allow for it to happen though. It's much deeper than something I can explain in a few sentences on a discussion board.

[Ganzo]

Isnt' that the same thing? This is a semantic argument. Both Jews and Christians believe that Gods will decides all things. Free will is a copout. It’s one of the many contradictory ideas..

That get's pretty deep in the philosophical divide between a lot of branches of Christianity. Protestants follow Sole Fide, but I know Catholics do not, and never have.

Faith does indeed grant strength. If one considers their age the Old and New Testament hold up pretty well to the test of time in regards to contradictions.

Toss, I think the opposite is true. True people of faith often believe they are there to 'serve' and have a 'servants heart'.

That is a good explanation, although I would replace serve/servant relationship with that of being a part of the relationship. Judaism explains it in an expression: אֲנִי לְדוֹדִי וְדוֹדִי לִי - Ani LeDodi VeDodi Li - “I am my beloved's and my beloved is mine” from Psalm 6:3

[Harrison]

You don't need to believe in the judeo-christian theological constructs in order to believe in some sort of afterlife. Most other religions offer their own version. Pick one you like and follow that belief, if you wish to, or don't if you don't.

-Arlos

Lol...religion isn't like choosing a magazine subscription

If you're wrong you don't get to reincarnate just because you think it sounds cool.
If you're wrong that rock doesn't have a soul because you think it sounds cool.
If you're wrong you don't get virgins in heaven because you think it sounds cool.

etc. etc.

[ClakarEQ]

FWIW, my issue with religion is the power of god is only conducive to those of that faith. Christians believe Jews are going to hell because they don't believe Jesus was the savior, they believe all other faiths are hell bound, period, there are absolutely no exceptions, you believe this one thing, and you'll go to heaven, if you don't you WILL go to hell.

Jews would say Christains absolutely cannot reach "heaven". They cannot believe Jesus was the savior and if you do, you can't go in. Jews are no better than Christians in that sense, they are mutually exclusive. Ganzo, you know all your Christian folks are hell bound, you know all your Christian friends think YOU are hell bound. Hell for you lasts as long as it takes to be clean, hmm, that's interesting, the more you sin the more you're punished, gosh why does that sound familiar. I know, it's karma, punishment fits the crime.

If you didn't experience the faith, didn't have the chance to see the faith, you go to hell. O yeah, but that sounds too harsh so lets change the book so babies DOA go to heaven but if you're 12 months, you go to hell. O yeah, St patties falls on a Friday, well now, lets go ahead and eat the corned beef and you can just "skip" that good Friday.

I had a debate with some religious folks regarding things like tsunamis, Japan, India, etc. I was saying how many lives are lost, 200k in India, not sure how many in Japan, etc. The discussion turned to the 200k in India being hell bound. I said why, no God would do that, "ours" will and did, WTF /boggle. God punishes good people because he is testing their strength, interesting. God does NOT punish some of the most heinous crime committers in history, hmm, ok. God heals people through prayer, ok, sensing the crazy. Let me think thoughts in my mind and these somehow activate this "God" to heal whomever at whim he wants.

Sure then you can do what I did a year+ ago. God is a term used across all religions and while each one appears different, all gods are actually the same entity. At the time, it was my reasonable method to mitigate the issues.

It all came back to, are you fucking serious?

You know Pascal’s Wager still nets you in hell. You can't think it, you have to believe. He is saying fake your god out because there is no losing in thinking it. But GOD sees through all of that, he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, o wait, that's a different god now isn't it. Put that under your pillow and you’ll get a coin, damn, off again, O, yeah, give me 10% of your income, that will help get you to heaven. But you get what you give, no you give and PEOPLE give back. God does nothing for you there.

I don't think humans are "above" any other animal in that sense. All animals require the same things to survive. Only one animal had the intellect to invent religion, so it did. Humans are unique in their sense of being and because of this, we have to invent what created that uniqueness. I find it odd that this is also the ONLY animal that has a soul, that has an afterlife. We are so privileged.

The birth of religion was based off fearing the unknown, control, and power, I am nearly certian no one can dispute that. It didn't just happen, there was a reason.

Christians will wait for the second coming that will never happen
Jews will wait for the first coming that will never happen
I've got no clue on what Muslims think but whatever it is, you'll be waiting a long time too
As for the rest of them, whateva.

Typical all over the place post from me, shock I know

Harri, nearly all religions are mutually exclusive though, so it is sort of like picking up a magazine subscription, in fact you can even change it up and still get into heaven. If I go from Jew to Christian, I'm in, if I go from Christian to Muslim, I'm in, if I go from Muslim to Hindu, I'm still in. The deal is, I'm only "in" amongst the current flavor, the other flavors think I'm hell bound.

[ClakarEQ]

a shorter version in many ways

Don't you find it odd that the only animal on the planet smart enough to "get" religion is also the only animal that has a soul (at least in all "Bible" based religions)? Folks complain about the sense of entitlement that people have today of the GOV, etc. Yet when I read some of the "perceptions" from religious posts here, I can't help but think the entitlement you must feel. How deserving, how privileged.

Lyion (all Christians), Ganzo just said you can't get into heaven (GOE).
Ganzo (all non-Christians), Lyion just said you are going to hell.
Hey, put all that behind you though and just be friends /wink Feel confident but not certian the path you walk is the right one. For all you know, the proper path is Clakarism, and all those that don't follow it, go to hell. /laugh

[Ganzo]

FWIW, my issue with religion is the power of god is only conducive to those of that faith. Christians believe Jews are going to hell because they don't believe Jesus was the savior, they believe all other faiths are hell bound, period, there are absolutely no exceptions, you believe this one thing, and you'll go to heaven, if you don't you WILL go to hell.

Jews would say Christains absolutely cannot reach "heaven". They cannot believe Jesus was the savior and if you do, you can't go in. Jews are no better than Christians in that sense, they are mutually exclusive. Ganzo, you know all your Christian folks are hell bound, you know all your Christian friends think YOU are hell bound. Hell for you lasts as long as it takes to be clean, hmm, that's interesting, the more you sin the more you're punished, gosh why does that sound familiar. I know, it's karma, punishment fits the crime.

I'm sorry Clakar, but you have wrong information. On the part of

Christains absolutely cannot reach "heaven"

Judaism says that anyone who is not Jewish and follows the Seven Laws of Noah is a righteous person and will go to Heaven. Those laws are:

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

This basically covers the majority of the world's religions and even atheists who don't bash other people's beliefs.

On the Hell part you are ever further from the subject. Judaism has something like a Purgatory where the soul is cleansed from the evil it did in the previous life. This is not a place of punishment but a place of reflection and the only pain that is felt there is that of guilt and sorrow of the realization of one's mistakes. Once that soul is ready to shed those, it has a choice of being reborn to try again(yes Judaism believes in reincarnation) or joining God in Heaven.

[ClakarEQ]

Christians cannot follow your 7 laws. If they did, they'd be Jewish and not Christian hehe.

Edit on
Is the Christian Cross not Idoltry?
edit off

Jesus Christ being the savior, Muhammad, etc, those are all Blasphemy, are they not? That is sort of a point I'm making, that I feel you're sugar-coating. You can't have it both ways, you think and believe one thing, you can't have a choice. That one "rule" bars all other religions from yours. The moment you "cave" on that one rule, you're no longer the religion you were, you are now Jewish. Am I wrong on that?

Sexual Immorality, that is open to human perception, what exactly does that mean and do you require Rabbi's to provide the end-all be-all interpretation of it. Does it spell out all the sexual perversion that exists today (I'd hope not)? BTW this is a huge issue for me with many Christian religions. There is a hierarchy of who can talk to whom, how it’s done, etc etc. Many sects would require “human” intervention to facilitate the interpretation as the common person can’t possibly “get it”.

The only pain that is felt is guilt and sorrow, who's interpretation is that? Karma is what I know from Judaism. You sin and you will equally "punished" as the cleansing itself is "painful". This is from your book is it not? Are there scriptures you can send my way that explain the void of pain during cleansing? Or that the pain is based on the sinners perception of a particular sin? That was most certainly not my understanding speaking with Jewish folks.

BTW, I'm not bashing anyone. I just find serious, significant flaws in every religion I've researched over the past year since becoming enlightened with truth. When I ask questions from folks of that religion, I assume the response is accurate.

I can respect the choices you've made. But you too must respect the flaws religion is burdened with. It is a human creation so it cannot be without flaw as we are flawed right out of the gate. God wrote nothing, humans wrote it all. Any human that wrote a word in any religion is already an interpretation of that word. This again is another major flaw I find in religion. I believe the old testament speaks of God’s inability to perceive sin, God spoke, God did not listen, Man wrote. For all of Gods power and glory, he can’t look upon sin.

[brinstar]

p.s. All Catholic schools teach evolution. It's been accepted by the church for quite some time. Not sure what your point is, Brin.

i had to re-read the thread to make sure, but yeah - i never singled out Catholicism directly, nor did i intend to. my analogy of "geocentrism vs copernicanism" was just an example of how christianity in general eventually gets things right, albeit a couple centuries behind actual scientists

[Ganzo]

Christians cannot follow your 7 laws. If they did, they'd be Jewish and not Christian hehe.

No Jews have 613 commandments; the 7 are for non Jews, and they are also part of the 10 commandments of Christians and Muslims

Is the Christian Cross not Idoltry?

Not unless you think Christians believe that Cross is their God

Jesus Christ being the savior, Muhammad, etc, those are all Blasphemy, are they not?

No; blasphemy would be saying that there is no God. Using different names or following different prophets does not diminish from God.

That is sort of a point I'm making, that I feel you're sugar-coating. You can't have it both ways, you think and believe one thing, you can't have a choice. That one "rule" bars all other religions from yours. The moment you "cave" on that one rule, you're no longer the religion you were, you are now Jewish. Am I wrong on that?

No clue what you are talking about here. You can't just pick one rule to follow and become a Jew, it is possible to convert but it is a very long and difficult process and you do have to follow all 613 commandments after conversion.

Sexual Immorality, that is open to human perception, what exactly does that mean and do you require Rabbi's to provide the end-all be-all interpretation of it. Does it spell out all the sexual perversion that exists today (I'd hope not)? BTW this is a huge issue for me with many Christian religions. There is a hierarchy of who can talk to whom, how it’s done, etc etc. Many sects would require “human” intervention to facilitate the interpretation as the common person can’t possibly “get it”.

This one is very easy and does not need a rabbi's interpretation: Don't devote your life to sex. Sex is a part of family life and is actually encouraged; in fact one of the commandments for a man is to give his wife pleasure. When you turn sex into business or obsession it becomes Sexual Immorality

The only pain that is felt is guilt and sorrow, who's interpretation is that?

It is from Kaballah since Torah(Jewish Bible) does not mention Hell anywhere.

Karma is what I know from Judaism. You sin and you will equally "punished" as the cleansing itself is "painful". This is from your book is it not? Are there scriptures you can send my way that explain the void of pain during cleansing? Or that the pain is based on the sinners perception of a particular sin? That was most certainly not my understanding speaking with Jewish folks.

Karma is from Hinduism not Judaism. If you want to read about afterlife you can check out some passages in Zohar, Tanya maybe something in the Talmud; Judaism does not have much written about it as it is not something that is given much importance in our faith, we focus on how to be good in this life. I do not know who you have spoken to about Judaism but you seem to have almost everything wrong or misinterpreted.

BTW, I'm not bashing anyone. I just find serious, significant flaws in every religion I've researched over the past year since becoming enlightened with truth.

That statement sounds like something coming from a religious zealot.

I can respect the choices you've made. But you too must respect the flaws religion is burdened with. It is a human creation so it cannot be without flaw as we are flawed right out of the gate. God wrote nothing, humans wrote it all. Any human that wrote a word in any religion is already an interpretation of that word. This again is another major flaw I find in religion. I believe the old testament speaks of God’s inability to perceive sin, God spoke, God did not listen, Man wrote. For all of Gods power and glory, he can’t look upon sin.

Kaballah says that humans speak in the language of leaves when trying to describe roots, so I agree a lot of what you hear or read will be misrepresented or misinterpreted but that does not mean that religion is wrong. I will not abandon science just because there are often discoveries which debunk previous theories, I accept it as a work in progress; well religion is the same work in progress - what was a dogma before has been clarified or changed since then as we have advanced and evolved.

I am sorry for whatever happened in your life that has made you so jaded towards religion, but you don't have to try to prove anything. Believe what you want and be happy.

[Arlos]

Ganzo, if more people had your attitude towards faith and religion, the world would be a far, far better place.

Unfortunately, all too many followers of nearly ALL religions tend far too much into zealotry, and are convinced that their way is the One Right True Way, and all others are heresy that must be stamped out. No religion is free from these people, though Christianity and Islam seem to gather far more than their share. (and I haven't met really any intolerantly zealous Buddhists or Shintoists, I must admit.)

I honestly don't care what religion most people are, as long as they are not in your face about it, and as long as they aren't trying to force people who aren't members of their faith to follow the moral teachings and tenets of that faith. (Fundamentalist Christians are particularly bad about that last part, in my experience, which is why I have a big problem with so many of them.)

-Arlos

[Jay]

Ganzo is like a religion supercomputer...