Guns, I know, not again, can't help myself

[Arlos]

Ahhhh, but is your "enjoyment" of having specialized killing tools more important than the lives of 20 children? People liked going on safari and killing Elephants, or going out Whaling too. Guess what, society decided that other things were more important than a few people's enjoyment for pastimes that were inherently destructive.

No, you personally might never snap and shoot random innocent people, but doesn't the rest of society have the right to be safe from people having easy access to specialized killing tools? I mean, we don't let people by nerve gas over the counter, do we? Sure, they're different, but only in degree. Both are designed specifically to kill people, just one is more efficient than the other at killing large groups. Hell, even people who have gone through everything necessary to get concealed carry have been known to just randomly off people, like that guy in Jacksonville who fired 8 or 9 rounds into a car and killed a teenager because they were playing their stereo too loud at a gas station. ( http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... olice-say/ )

Now, I can certainly understand owning rifles or shotguns for hunting, and keeping them at home. (Not assault rifles though, of course) I do not, however, see any practical purpose to handguns. Sure, if you want to do target shooting with them, fine, just make it required to store them at the range, and not at home. Nor do I see any legitimate use for things like extended magazines. You don't need a 35 round clip to hunt deer. Sorry.

-Arlos

[Ganzo]

Easy solution: Have a fucking armed guard in school. Why is it such a big deal, whose freedom does it impede on. Every day I take my daughter to school I am amazed by how anyone can just walk in there in the morning when it's full of kids, no one will ask you who you are or why you are there, I can grab any of the kids in the hallways and walk out of there with them and no one would stop to even question me. My wife went through 11 years of school where teachers were armed and not one kid has ever been shot in school, in the entire country (Israel); and this has never affected her in any negative ways, in fact she says she felt safer because she knew as a kid that no bad guys could ever get to her while she was in school.

[Spazz]

Ahhhh, but is your "enjoyment" of having specialized killing tools more important than the lives of 20 children?

Arlos what does that have to do with me? I didnt kill them kids, i didnt supply the gun and so on. I own guns lots of them but im not connected to this guy and his behavior in the slightest. Also lyion your right I like being amred its my right im responsible about it and I dont feel like I should be held responsible for this assholes behavior.

ALso I already suggested armed guards at schools incase no one saw it ganzo.

[Lyion]

An armed guard at a school would not have helped in this case. Plus, it adds more guns to the equation, which is a mistake, in my opinion. Israel is not a good comparison.

The problem Spazz is while you are ressponsible, there are many who are not. I empathize with your need to be armed living in a tough neighborhood, but my point is simply that a gun in the hands of an angry young man or accidently handled by a child is a recipe for disaster. There are countless homes with guns, and even a gun locker is not safe from even a very young child, let alone a very intelligent young adult.

We have a culture of guns. That isn't going to change overnight, but I really wish it would. The small amount of good gained by the masses of people with handguns is not worth the cost in lives or the dangers it brings to society. I find it ironic we're so overtly worried about being obese, or a few ounces of weed, or even health care costs and ignore the repercussions of the average 20 year old male carrying around something that can do more damage in two seconds in a flash of anger than a lifetime of high blood pressure or people rocking the ganj.

[Zanchief]

We have a culture of guns. That isn't going to change overnight, but I really wish it would.

This is the problem and handing out more guns to "responsible" people is not going to help, it will just further add to a culture obsessed with gun play and violence. Here's the thing about the Outlaw theory (If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns). This assumes everyone fits into two very definably categories. Law breakers, and law abiding folks. Those who do these heinous acts are once, and often right before the moment of these crimes, innocent law abiding citizens. Reducing the number of guns in circulation will help, simply by removing the option to resolve conflicts in this way. Yes other tools can also be used to kill people, tools that also have other uses aside from killing, but I'd rather have a crazed person trying to go on a rampage with a chainsaw then a handgun personally.

Also to the argument that if there were more guns people would be safer, statistics don't help here. A handgun is likely to cause you more harm then ever be used to protect you or your loved ones. It's play ignorant to think otherwise. Knowing this, gun-ownership strictly for the purpose of safety is entirely unproductive and irresponsible. If people are solely concerned about safety there are plenty of viable non-lethal alternatives that are far safer. Those don't get a rise out of the gun-boner though, so there's that.

[Blackdiam]

We have a culture of guns. That isn't going to change overnight, but I really wish it would.

This is the problem and handing out more guns to "responsible" people is not going to help, it will just further add to a culture obsessed with gun play and violence. Here's the thing about the Outlaw theory (If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns). This assumes everyone fits into two very definably categories. Law breakers, and law abiding folks. Those who do these heinous acts are once, and often right before the moment of these crimes, innocent law abiding citizens. Reducing the number of guns in circulation will help, simply by removing the option to resolve conflicts in this way. Yes other tools can also be used to kill people, tools that also have other uses aside from killing, but I'd rather have a crazed person trying to go on a rampage with a chainsaw then a handgun personally.

Also to the argument that if there were more guns people would be safer, statistics don't help here. A handgun is likely to cause you more harm then ever be used to protect you or your loved ones. It's play ignorant to think otherwise. Knowing this, gun-ownership strictly for the purpose of safety is entirely unproductive and irresponsible. If people are solely concerned about safety there are plenty of viable non-lethal alternatives that are far safer. Those don't get a rise out of the gun-boner though, so there's that.

Zanchief I don't think you are saying the way I am taking this but the way I read your post if would be ok with you if he used a chainsaw to kill everyone yesterday not a gun

[brinstar]

2 things

spazz, you gotta take yourself out of the equation here and stop being selfish. you're arguing that "i like having an AR15, so anyone else should be able to get one too" and that is fucked up. i would like an F/A-18 Hornet with VTOL capabilities and vulcan cannons but i realize that if i'm allowed to have one, so is some fucker who would use it to strafe a church or kamikaze into a building. i know you are (at least mostly) responsible with your guns and that's cool, so realize that it's nothing personal when i say this: if making a weapon like the AR15 much harder to get for fuckwads who like to mow down two dozen kids or perforate a movie theatre crowd means that you can't have yours, tough shit. call me crazy, but yes, i place innocent lives of children (FAR) above your personal enjoyment.


japan banned almost all firearms a while back. you can get 1-10 years in prison for even HOLDING a handgun, nevermind owning unlicensed bullets or actually FIRING the thing. the bloodthirsty nazgul over at the NRA would lead you to believe that the result of such a ban would be rampant gun crime since "HERP DERP ONLY OUTLAWS WULD HAVE GUNNS" but guess what - the NRA, as is usually the case, is fucking dead wrong and only blows hot air so you buy more guns and/or give them more money to bribe elected officials. what actually happened...

2008 gun-related homicides in America: over 12,000
2008 gun-related homicides in Japan: 11

yep, that monster in CT killed more people in a couple of hours than YEARS worth of gun homicides in japan. but BOOGY BOOGY BOOGY dey wanna taek ur guns!!!!1

[Blackdiam]

Bottom line gun or no gun he still would have carried out what what he did he could have killed his mother with a knife and then gone to the school and ran everyone over with his mom's car

[Zanchief]

Zanchief I don't think you are saying the way I am taking this but the way I read your post if would be ok with you if he used a chainsaw to kill everyone yesterday not a gun

My point is, it's a lot harder to use a tool made primarily for another purpose to kill someone, then one that is solely created for that purpose.

[Blackdiam]

being that people today are told to hide and stick their head in the sand when trouble happens using a chainsaw would just as easy as using a gun

[Spazz]

Im gonna throw this out there as a random thought but im actually a lot more afraid of getting stabbed than shot where i live. Theres a lot of guns where im at but theres a knife in every pocket.

I dont really think we need knife or gun control I think theres something wrong in our country and the insane violence is just another symptom and not the cause at all. Theres an abundance of everything on earth and yet people are coming up short. Fear of everything is pumped at us from all sides anytime your looking at any form of media, prosperity seems to be lacking everywhere you look , the teenagers are more reckless than ever before , the adults seem to be more ignorant than any time in modern history and so on. People are in a rat race of stress and shit for created reasons as I said theres never been so much and yet so hard to acquire. Our country is melting down right before our eyes it feels like and I think it runs a lot deeper than weather you can buy an ak47 at the gun store.


America has a different culture than japan and Europe and im afraid that a gun ban wouldnt do much for crime or shooting statistics but the govt wouldnt re institute gun rights so I get rabid on the issue. Im safe law abiding and responsible I dont see myself as part of the problem of violence our country is facing.

being that people today are told to hide and stick their head in the sand when trouble happens using a chainsaw would just as easy as using a gun

I couldnt agree more were taught to just give bad guys what they want and they will leave us alone and that has never been the case. I get involved in crazy shit down here all the time and its prolly going to cost me my life one day but im there in a flash if a neighbor is in trouble and I believe we gotta look out for each other.

[Zanchief]

being that people today are told to hide and stick their head in the sand when trouble happens using a chainsaw would just as easy as using a gun

So I guess we won't be using any logic in our arguments from now on?

[Drem]

im sure in the eyes of history, society is a lot less violent than it ever was. i'd say we've made a lot of progress in general. and i would honestly rather get shot than stabbed or cut up, drawn and quartered, stoned, hung, bludgeoned, etc. just as a hypothetical, after 10 years using a knife to cut meat every day i never ever want to know what that feels like. i'd rather get shot. at the end of the day tho i wish dudes would just settle shit with their fists the way it should be. obviously that doesnt happen when every kid thinks hardcore rap's just about guns n prison and they have easy access to daddy's pistols

i think the real injustice here is the media's coverage of it. i'm sure you've all seen morgan freeman's comments on this and i agree with him. just to paraphrase, do you know the names of any of the victims? a single victim from aurora or viriginia tech or columbine or sandy hills? i doubt it. but the killers are all household names. all the way back to kip kinkel, that happened 10 minutes from my house in a school i very well could've been attending if my parents had chosen. people that would normally off themselves alone in their basements as sad nobodies can now go out as hideous monsters in the eye of the public. and it's the news' fault. turn off the news

[Ganzo]

An armed guard at a school would not have helped in this case. Plus, it adds more guns to the equation, which is a mistake, in my opinion. Israel is not a good comparison.

How so? Why would an armed guard not have helped by shooting and killing this maniac when he came in and attacked. Yes there might have been victims but not 27 of them. Additionally the simple knowledge of this guard being present would have deterred this and many other attacks. These maniacs are looking for easy victims and flashy cases not for a gun fight with a trained professional. I have yet to hear a single valid argument against an armed guard, but I guess it's not the point here; everyone is more focused on the banning guns than thinking of solutions

[Lyion]

You are missing my point about the culture of guns, and my issues with that. I don't think adding more guns to the mix which means in simple terms more danger and more potential for violence is going in the right direction. It's bad enough we have cops shooting unarmed people on the street. Forgive me if I don't want that same mindset and danger in schools.

This is not about an instant solution to a single episode, but a culture revolving around weapons built to instantly kill other human beings. That may be fine and Dandy in Israel with it's tiny population, funded by billions from America btw, but in most of the civilized world it's rightly not the norm. It really should not be in America, either, except we're still stuck in the Wild West mentality.

[Jay]

I feel that while guns do play a role in the tragedy they weren't the biggest immediate threat. The biggest threat here is mental illness. Better options for Nancy Lanza and the Lanza family to deal with mental health issues I feel would have gone a lot further to prevent this tragedy than any form of gun control. http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother . The article is a piece by a mom who struggles with a young genius of a son with extremely violent outbursts. Who's to say that this kid won't become the next mass murderer if not properly cared for? I guess I'm trying to say is that there is more to the statement "...people kill people" than the dumb quote suggests.

With that being said, gun control is an issue as well. I'm not saying ban guns, I'm not saying leave it the way it is, I'm saying there needs to be discussion because truthfully I don't know what the best answer is on guns.

Last thing about this is media sensationalism. Roger Ebert blogged about this tragedy by simply quoting himself when previously asked about Columbine. It's a great read. Here's the link: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/12 ... lings.html

Basically he goes on to say that the media coverage of these events hype it up so much that the media itself is more likely to influence these acts of violence than any violent game or movie.

End of the day there isn't any one failure that caused the CT shootings. There are multiple points of failure here.

[brinstar]

^^^^^^^^^^

this

[Drem]

Last thing about this is media sensationalism. Roger Ebert blogged about this tragedy by simply quoting himself when previously asked about Columbine. It's a great read. Here's the link: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2012/12 ... lings.html

Basically he goes on to say that the media coverage of these events hype it up so much that the media itself is more likely to influence these acts of violence than any violent game or movie.

ya that's what i said, i think this is the biggest aspect.

[Trielelvan]

(goddamn it Jay you ninja lol)

I am Adam Lanza's Mother

My dad raised me and my brother around a metric ton of weaponry, and by the time I was 10 years old I'd already learned to clean, shoot, load, and make ammo for most of the ones I could fire without knocking myself backwards or dislocating my shoulder (note: a .444 using high pressure rounds hurts like hell) including an auto-loading over/under double barreled 20-gauge riot shotgun, a 30-30, a .38 pistol, and both a .22 pistol and rifle, but he also instilled a deep respect for what weapons can do and how to handle them, store them, and use them properly.
Also, I was not crazy.

I don't keep guns in my house because I have a child who has ADHD, an Autism Spectrum Disorder that has yet to be properly diagnosed (but we're pretty sure it's Asperger's), and is prone to bouts of mania with a really bad impulsive streak.
Were I to keep guns in this house, I'm positive he would accidentally kill himself or his brother, because he is quite capable of picking a lock (that was not a fun discovery...) or figuring out combinations (that wasn't either...) and would most assuredly find a way of getting into a safe or cabinet. He wouldn't do it on purpose - he's not mean and is a good person, but he's also ridiculously inquisitive, clumsy, and prone to not taking precautions.

The guns Adam Lanza got a hold of were his mother's guns.
Not his.
He did not own any.
SHE wasn't afflicted with mental issues (though wtf she was doing with guns in her house with a son like that makes this questionable), but her son was. If he hadn't gotten to her guns, he might well have just used knives or some other kind of weapon to take out his aggression.
Maybe he would have built a bomb.
Maybe he would have blown up the entire school as well as his own house.
Maybe, maybe, maybe...

I'm not saying that gun control isn't an issue.
What I AM saying is that this tragedy wouldn't have happened if Adam Lanza hadn't fallen through the cracks.

Sorry, this is one thing I'm really at odds with. I don't like that everyday stupid people can legally own firearms, but I'm also quite aware of how stupidly easy it is to get one illegally. If you've got the cash, you can get one. Hell, if you don't have the cash, you can STILL get one.

Gun restrictions, bans, checks and balances, etc etc.... all symptoms. Treating symptoms doesn't do anything. It just puts a bandaid over the real problem. If the healthcare system in this country was actually worth a damn, this kind of shit tragedy wouldn't be an issue.

[Spazz]

I dont like that the biggest morons in the world have the same access to weapons that I do in the slightest. So far my compromise is this and its not perfect either. A much more extensive background check and more questions asked... no more gun shows to make it easier to track whos got what. Mandatory waiting period for any non cpl holder who is unproven and untested. Less junk guns and a higher quality standard will get rid of a lot of cheap 38s 380s and 22s which will help eliminate throw away peices. Last but not least I would like there to be a gun safety class in school every few years to remind children to respect the power and show caution around fire arms. ALso I dont think it would be a bad idea to have a 1 strike rule ... you get caught with an unreg gun on you and you get an auto very harsh sentance. But all compromise is a give and take and I would say that if Myself and others jump through all those hoops and proove ourselves that we should be allowed to own full autos streetsweepers basicly what ever kind of fire arm i wish to own and can afford to purchase. Im not talking combat vehicles or ordinance im strictly speaking of guns . I personally would like to be allowed to go out like a gi joe gi as well cuz i know on me my weapons wont fall into the wrong hands ever but that isnt going to happen.


If the compromise doesnt limit what I can own i guess im willing to jump through hoops and come up with a gun control policy for america but if it limits mag compacity or kind of weapon I can own or trying to take the right to carry Myself and many other responsible gun owners are not going to go for that at all. Thing gun haters need to realize is that if you dont want to compromise with folks like me than nothing is going to change at all and thats the bottom line cuz spazz cold said so.

[Harrison]

on the one hand, i feel the country needs to come together and have a serious multipartisan discussion not about guns or gun control but about our society and culture of violence as well as our dismal lack of effective mental health policy and how all these ingredients come together to make some people very very sick in the head

but then on the other hand, motherfucker had an AR15. the FUCK does anyone need an AR15 for?

and PS, fuck off with that tired bullshit argument "HERF DERF WE KILL PEEPL WITH CARS TOO, BAN CARS" because it's a fucking question of DESIGN. cars are designed to move people and things around, knives are designed to turn one thing into two smaller things. yes, cars and knives can be used to kill people, but AR15s are specifically designed to put a lot of holes in a lot of humans in a very short time. if we can limit free speech and say "you can't yell FIRE in a theatre" we can sure as fuck limit gun ownership and say "you can't own a fucking AR15 you fucking psycho!" god damn i'm sick of dipshits oozing out that fucking argument, so to anyone who wants to shovel that pile of shit out: fuck you, fuck you in your stupid gun-porn-sore dickhole with a high velocity depleted uranium .50 round. in fact, please actually push the entire round inside your dickhole, then whack the primer with a hammer until it fires

while i'm at it, fuck the 2nd amendment. that shit was written so the people could stand up to a government that needs replacing. what a fucking joke that has become - our govt has unmanned drones that drop laser-guided bombs and ships that can chill fifty miles offshore and rain cruise missiles as far inland as fucking nashville. "boo hoo my rights" lol bitch please you don't even have the right of habeas corpus once the federal govt decides to call you a terror suspect

You obviously don't, or haven't ever, known much about guns. This is the type of argument used by those who have never used them much.

The difference between an AR-15 and any semi-automatic hunting rifle? Appearance. That's it. In fact, hunting rifles are more deadly by far. (Larger caliber, unless we're talking a varmint rifle, and then it would be equal or lesser than an AR-15.)

You want to ban something based on its appearance. Fucking. Lawl.

Cigarettes still top deadliness. They're legal and serve absolutely zero legitimate purpose. So, you can take this self righteousness straight to the comedy club nearest you.

[Zanchief]

Basically he goes on to say that the media coverage of these events hype it up so much that the media itself is more likely to influence these acts of violence than any violent game or movie.

This is so true.

[ClakarEQ]

Guns and our gun culture are the biggest part of this problem. All you have to do is look at every other country that has more strict laws on it. Numbers don't lie. Reduce the access, reduce the numbers, gun crime goes down. How you could argue otherwise is just stupid and defies all logic and statics that can be supplied.

Vehicles are designed to move stuff
Cigarettes you could argue harm no one but the smoker
Guns are made purposefully to kill and harm humans

Again, it does not really matter. I'm confident the future will be more strict gun laws. It will happen in 40 years or less, I can say this with nearly absolute fact. Gun ownership is going down, distaste for guns is going way up. Time is now against gun lovers. Enjoy your murders while you can, soon you won't have the same flexibility.

[Tikker]

.

[Menelvir]

There have been so many cases of similar incidents, I can't help but think of the individuals responsible as something akin to living time bombs.

The pattern seems to recur often: individuals lead seemingly peaceful, tranquil lives, though they may be characterised as 'quiet', 'socially awkward', 'withdrawn', etc.

Day after day passes, and no one can tell if anything is amiss, because there is no open communication channel between these individuals and someone who will listen.

Then, after some period of weeks, months, or years, an event happens which acts as a catalyst, prompting these once benign individuals into action with deadly (and somehow always shocking) consequences.

My theory (IANAPsychologist) is that if these individuals are too socially isolated, left with nothing but their own progressively darker thoughts, and they have (or can get) access to weapons, tragedy will be the end result. Keeping these individuals engaged -- developmentally but also socially, might help reduce the number of occurrences of these events.

These individuals, once they cross over the point of no return, have no empathy. I think it likely that this shooter didn't see his victims as fellow human beings, he saw them as objects.